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hoghead1….So “conflicting snap shots”, leaves a persons mind where?, perhaps confused? Anyone can cherry pick and make scriptures say almost anything they want them to say.
peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi hoghead1:
In light of those scriptures which state that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, and the fact that he has stated that there is only one true God, could it be the church which claims to be Orthodox in their doctrines, may have misunderstood the prologue of John 1?
The Logos is that which God has spoken, and it conveys to us that when God began to create the worlds and its host he had a plan. The Logos pertains to Jesus, it is not him as pre-existent sentient person. It is through him that God’s plan would be fulfilled
Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Love in Christ,
MartyLove in Christ,
MartyMarty…..Good post brother. You most likely will not get an answer from hoghead1, he thinks his THEOLOGY is greater then our scriptures, but than Bless be to our GOD WE ALL KNOW BETTER HERE., he has kept us from all false teachings concernig the “trinity” buy his Spirit of truth, that abides in us and all those lead by GOD WILL not follow these FALSE TEACHERS, who philosophy away the sound teachings of our scriptures.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
One may argue about the trinity and how the popes and other church fathers were trins but were Jesus or Paul or Matthew,Mark,Luke and John? They don’t come across that way to me in most instances. Only John’s gospel brings out three separate divine beings which can be postulated as a trinity while other verses in the book seem to deny that very postulation.
Hi, Marty,
According to Jn. Christ is a preexistent, sentient being, however. Christ is God, and certainly God is preexistent and sentient.
Hi again, Andrew,
There are a number of other biblical passages that support the Trinity, such as Rom. 1:4, I Cor. 2:3, Philip. 2:6, Eph. 6:6, to name a few. Also, the basic theme running throughout the NT, well, really, throughout the whole Bible, is that only the God who created us can save us, that we are in too deep to save ourselves, so that Christ as Savior is Christ as God.
Hi hoghead1:
You say:
Hi, Marty,
According to Jn. Christ is a preexistent, sentient being, however. Christ is God, and certainly God is preexistent and sentient.
Well, Jesus stated:
John 17:
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
And the Apostle Paul stated in 1 Co:
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
And when Jesus was going to ascend to heaven, he called the Apostles his brethren, and he said that he was going to ascend to his Father and God and to their Father and God.
John 20:
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”, and it is God who anointed him, and so, how then is he God?)
Hi, Marty,
You have to look at all the biblical passages, not just some, as you are doing here. For example, the prologue d0es in fact identify Christ with God. The problem, as I have indicated not many times, is that other passages, such as you are citing here, can be very subordinationalistic. That’s what I mean when I say the Bible provides conflicting snap shots and that we have to piece these together as best we can.
Hi hoghead,
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Yet you confuse the vessel with the contents?
Hello again, t8,
You brought into p lay one passage in Scripture which does present s subordinationalistic view of Christ. However, there are other passages that do in fact identify Christ with God, such as the prologue to Jn. The Trinity is a central teaching in Christianity, due to these latter passages. The problem is putting them together into a unified picture.
The Trinity Doctrine is the Catholic Faith am they hold it as a salvation issue. But before these creeds we had scripture and Believers who really want truth will go to the source and not trust the traditions and latter doctrines of men and devils.
Scripture makes it paramount that we understand that there is one God and that this God sent his son into the world.
Because I hold to this, when I read about God in scripture I see the Father. When you read scripture, you have to read God as Trinity because that is what God is to you.
Thus to you, The Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity Gave their son…
However, I am willing to bet that when you read this and hundreds of other scriptures, you are not thinking of the Trinity because you cannot.
It is another to call the church fathers all liars and those who hold with the Trinity all idolaters, etc.
The Trinity wasn’t taught by the Church fathers till later on. But Paul warned us about people from our own number who will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.
As for what the Church Fathers taught, you will not read the Trinity till much later.
Polycarp
Now may God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal priest himself, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, build you up in faith and truth… to all under heaven who shall believe in our Lord Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead..
Tatian
And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.
Theophilus of Antioch
And He is without beginning, since He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal. And he is called God… He is Lord, because He rules over the universe, Father, because He is before all things,…
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. He [the Word] is called “the Beginning” [arche],
Irenaeus
Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, “There is One God, the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in all….
This, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is One God, the Maker of this universe, He who was also announced by the prophets, and who by Moses set forth the dispensation of the law which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him.
Hi hoghead1:
Those scriptures that I have posted that show that Jesus was subordinate to the Father are not ambiguous, and so, the scriptures that you say conflict with what is clear by these scriptures must have an interpretation which lines up with what is being clearly stated. If your interpretation of the prologue to John 1 conflicts with those scriptures which are not ambiguous and need no interpretation, then your interpretation of John 1 must be incorrect.
I posted the following video elsewhere, maybe this will help relative to John 1:
Love in Christ,
Marty“That’s what I mean when I say the Bible provides conflicting snap shots and that we have to piece these together as best we can.”
And the “best we can” can present various pictures according to all of our various ideas on how we piece God together.
Hi, Marty,
I’m sorry, but I have no time to read sites you are others may refer me to. I want to talk to you, not them. I want to hear what you have to say, not them.
HI again, t8,
Again, I suggest you do a better job of reading teh pre-Nicene fathers. Take Irenaeus. What he actually says is that the Spirit and Son are the two hands of God, two modes of activity by which God is present. Hence, he writes, ” It is the Word of God, the Son of God, Jesus Christ Our lord, by whom all things were made…” If anything, Irenaeus is striving to fight Gnosticism , which saw a hierarchy of divine beings, with Christ and the Spirit and even the cerator God as being way down the totem pole.
Hi, again, t8, Again, I suggest you do a more thorough study of church history before posting such comments. You are way, way off here.
Marty….. Good video you posted brother, lots of truth in it.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
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