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Gene, where Ehrmans is in strong disagreement with you is that he believes Scripture is not at all inerrant, not God’s Word, in the traditional sense of the term. You seem to believe that Scripture is an inerrant witness, all dictated by God and written down exactly as God wanted it, so that nothing else is needed. Ehrmans is arguing Scripture is loaded with the prejudices of its writers and redactors who did much spin-doctoring. If you want to go on him, fine. Apparently, on the Trinity, you are. But then you are not going directly on Scripture, as you keep claiming. You are viewing Scripture via the lens provided by Ehrmans.
Yu know, Nick, it’s interesting. You claim you just want to go solely on Scripture. Cut out all the middle men. Don’t vie a hoot what they say, don’t want to have anything to do with the idolatrous opinions of men. And then you turn around and blast away at the Trinity, just like major scholars such as Ehrmans, who, by the way, is an atheist, do. Seems like you sure are allowing yourself to be influenced by contemporary, secular thinkers. Hmmm. Strange, very strange, don’t you think?
Hi Hoghead,
As soon as you can show any trinity taught in scripture we will take it seriously.
Until then such things are speculative and offensive to God.
hoghead1….I agree with Nick on this, you have not produced any “real” evidence from our biblical text for a trinitarian stand, but only quote others you believe and trust are more knoledgeably then what the text we have in our posesions are, but haven’t prroduced a single scripture that supports a trinitarian stand. while i and others hear have produced many scriptures text that show there is no trinity written in scriptures. IF you chose to follow men who have designed a IDOLTARIOUS teaching and reject the very scriptures that condemm that practice, thats your problem not ours. But trying to present yourself as a “true” bibical scholar, while at the sametime rejecting those solid and sound scriptures we present and act like we somehow are just ignorant uninformed people by not opening up to you and your sources that suposely support a trinitarian stand is sheer nonsense.
WE have all the text we need to make a clear stand against the whole concept of the trinity, as i have said there is no end to book and their writters who are pro trinitarians as welL as those who are not trinitarians, who needs any of that i have studied many of them and over the years, some parts i agree with while disagreeing with other parts it’s all a waste of time and adds nothing to the understanding of truth ? We have the text needed and with the SPIRIT OF TRUTH guiding our minds and convicting us, who needs any thing else. YOU seem to rely more on yourself and others then the spirit of truth to convience you, perhaps that is why you are so confused about the trinity and its false teachings, about JESUS BEING A TRUE GOD, O Well that your problem not our. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
According to your opinion, Nick. But I thought you were the one who said we shouldn’t pay any attention to human opinions. What makes yours here such an exception?
Gene, I have talked to you abut certain issues with the kind of posting. First, you continue to use inflammatory rhetoric. Not only is that inappropriate, but it is futile well. All it d id good for is starting a big flame war, which has no real scholarly vaule and contribute nothing to our understanding of the Trinity. If you are going to start shouting names at Trinitarians, they are probably going to should right back that you are some sort of crazy heretic that is trying to throw rocks through stained-glass windows and destroy the very fabric of the Christian religion, in league with God-denying atheists such as Bart Ehrmans, who appears to be the apparent source behind your thinking. Secondly, if you do not care enough about what you write to use at least basic grammar and correct spelling, then, frankly, I shouldn’t care enough to respond. Nobody should. A sharp-tongued, astute critic would be totally justified in writing you off as an ignorant anti-intellectual redneck who needs to go back and take a seventh -grade-level refresher course in basic grammar and also theology. If you are working from a situation where it is difficult for you to post in a calmer tone and with basic grammar, then don’t post, wait until you find a more appropriate time.
You have to respect the fact that the trinity is a very ancient doctrine that is viewed as a core teaching in Christianity. It has long been discussed, debated, and has stood firm. If you so strongly disagree with it, as you claim you do, then you really have your work cut out for you. You are going to have to make a most impressive case that this doctrine all wrong. Well, where is it? Where are your arguments against it? All you have done so far is al lot of name-calling, with absolutely not one shred of solid evidence behind them. Why should any Christian bother to take you seriously, then? I know I am very skeptical about many traditional Trinitarian formulations because I find they have inhere contradictions. However, I sure don’t see that means we have to throw the whole thing out, that all the fathers were liars, idolaters, etc., as you as several other members here claim. So I still await to hear you rational case.
You asked me what passages in the Bible support the Trinity. I should have to list them out for you? I thought you were some sort of expert here, far more so than all the rest of us, from the fathers to the present, and therefore one who would be already well aware of what passages Trinitarians look to. But I guess not. So OK, just for starters, and right off the top of my head, here are a few: Gen. 1:26, 3:22; 2 Pr. 1:1, John 1:1, 20:28, Titus, 2:13, Heb. 1:8, Jn. 17:5, Matt. 28:20, Heb. 1:3, Matt. 9:4, I Cor. 20:10, Jn. 3:5-6, I Cor, 6:19, Tit. 3:5, I Cor. 6:11, the Johannie Comma (though this is not in any of the early Bibles). Since you seem unaware what passages Trinitarians are using, I would suggest you take these as a lead and read what Christian scholars have to say about them . I am sure there are tons of literature out there.
Hi hoghead,
So in you opinion trinity is taught in scripture.
Please specify verses and supporting verses that say these things.
Oh, not. Not you, too, Nick? I already did this in my post to Gene. As I mentioned there, I really shouldn’t have to be doing this. If you are going to present yourself as a biblically-based, responsible critic of the trinity, then it is only expected you would already know these passages. Since you have to ask, it appears you really haven’t done your homework.
Hi hoghead,
So you agree that no verses teach about any trinity.
If that is the case you offer only speculations.
Should we follow you and your ideas?
hoghead1:
John 1c says that the Word was God. You say that the Word in John 1 is Jesus, in a pre-incarnate state, and that would make him God, but he has stated in John 17:3 that he came reveal the “one True God”, and the Apostle Paul has identified that God “as the Father” in 1 Co 8:6, and the following scripture states:
Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Yes, as you say, those that are considered church Fathers had these scripture when the Trinity doctrine was formulated, and why they ever added this doctrine to God’s Word and proclaimed it as Orthodox, beats me. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles taught the “Trinity doctrine”.
Love in Christ,
Martyhoghead1….I agree with Nick on this, you have not produced any “real” evidence from our biblical text for a trinitarian stand
Hi Gene,
I have “evidence”, but I’m not going to produce it unless Hoghead1 agrees to read through my posts on this thread…
Well Hoghead1, do we have a deal?
____________
God bless
Ed Jhoghead1…..Seems not so much as one of those scriptures you post even sugests a trinity of any kind, but you as the other trinitarians before who you simply read into the text what is not “specificly” said, and then try to pass yourselves as some kind of experts on the legitimacy of that false doctrine. but we and i have posted direct and specific scriptures that completely disallow anykind of trinitarian concepts, so why haven’t you even dealt with those scriptures not only I but others here have post?, is it because you have removed those scriptures out of your bible text in order to embrace the IDOLTROUS trinitarian doctrine. TRYING to pass yourself as some expert on religious teachings and at the same time embracing a totally false teaching, it doesn’t impress me nor should it anyone else here either, imo.
The only thing i get from you is how really unscriptural and unknowlegable of actual scriptures you really are, no matter how much you pride yourself of what some “church fathers”, have said and so forth, we all must with the help of the “spirit of truth” decide for ourselves what scriptures really are saying, speculations by you and others, past or present teachers becomes irrelevant in the end.
YOU also fasely accuse me of a follower of Bart Ehrman which is a lie, i simply said i have read some of his material, but he is just one of humdreds i have read , but they all have some truths as everyone does, but the bottom line is, it will be your own self that will have to give an account for yourself, just as we all will. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Nick, I did not say that no verses teach about the Trinity. Quite the contrary. I would appreciate it if you would read carefully teh comments I post.
I think the Trinity may “beat” you , Marty, simply because you fail to bear in mind that it is claiming there are three, not one, but three entities involved here: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Each of these is taken to be God, or, more specifically, a key dimension of one God. That is based on the fact that Scripture does in fact deify each of these beings. I pointed out several important biblical passages here in a recent post to Gene today. So remember, there are three key players involved here, not just one. Christ reveals God simply because Christ is God in the flesh.
Hello, Ed,
I’m not up to making any deals until I understand exactly what is going on. If you want me to red and respond to your posts, such as this one, fine. However, I’m no going to go and read through a host of previous comments you have posted. I just don’t have the time for that. If you maybe feel I haven’t been responding to certain of your posts, that is because they haven’t cropped up in mailbox. This one did, so I am responding. If you have some sort of crucial “evidence” or case you want to make here, one way or the other on the Trinity, you should present it, regardless of me. After all, others here are also interested in the Trinity.
Look, Gene, this post is entirely uncalled for and precisely what I have been complaining to you about. It is poorly and carelessly written and it is essentially some sort of unnecessary personal attack on me. I do not respond to posts of this nature. If you want me to take you seriously and respond, you definitely need to tone it down. How hard would it be for you to chill for a bit, take five, better compose your thoughts, and take the time to write and edit a more solid post? You don’t need to scream and shout to make your point, just present a solid case.
Hi hoghead,
You have yet to produce one verse that teaches about any divine trinity.
The closest you have come is to say that it is strongly implied.
Is implication enough for a serious bible student?
I already provided more than one biblical passage, Nick. Yes, “implied” is the right word here. I have explained before why. I am not going to repeat myself again.
Hi hoghead,
Jesus and the apostles proved their words from what is written.
But you think personal implications are now sufficient?
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