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Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,11:15) You say He is Lord.
I say He is LORD!LORD as in Jehovah, the Son.
You can't say that Jesus is LORD as in Jehovah, the Son.
So if that is your view, then according to you it cannot be talking about denying “Jesus is Lord” as being of the Antichrist spirit, rather it is denying that he is LORD.So whatever view is correct, the other is an Antichrist. Do you agree with that statement?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,07:34) Thanks Pierre. Now when you say, “May God be WITH me”, do you mean that the entire BEING of God Almighty will be riding in my car with me?
Or are you saying that you hope God will METAPHORICALLY be “with me”, by way of watching over me, protecting me, and guiding me?
(Of course I know it is the latter. I just wish some of the other people here would understand such language.
)
Mikeyes ,you are right ,and I pray that it will be so ,understand that the truth his only for those that seek the truth of God ,
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2012,03:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,05:19) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 11 2012,23:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,11:15) You say He is Lord.
I say He is LORD!LORD as in Jehovah, the Son.
You can't say that Jesus is LORD as in Jehovah, the Son.
Scripture says he is Lord.And you deny that he is Lord.
What does scripture say about that.
Something serious.
Are you serious. You think that I deny that Jesus is Lord??What have you been smoking?
LU, are you not saying that the scripture is saying Jesus is LORD. If so, then it is NOT saying that he is Lord because it is saying he is LORD.Two different words, hence why translators change the case.
So if Jesus is LORD to you and I say Jesus is Lord, then by that reason, one of us has to be antichrist.
t8,
The LORD is the Lord of lords, hence the LORD (Yahweh)is also the Lord.Deut 10:17
For Yahweh (LORD) your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the awesome, who doesn't respect persons, nor takes rewardSo, when I confess Jesus as LORD, by implication I also confess that He is the Lord of lords.
When you confess that He is lord, you do not confess by implication that He is Lord of lords. You merely confess that He is one of the lords that YHWH is the Lord over, from what I understand of your doctrine.
If your confession is that Jesus is Lord, what you mean is that He is lord because you teach that He is not Lord of lords since that would be YHWH. Get it?
So is that true about what you confess?
Is Jesus Lord and thus YHWH or is He just one of the many lords who YHWH is Lord over?
Hint:
Rev 17:14
New International Version (©1984)
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings–and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
Jesus is either Lord and thus Lord of lords and thus LORD (YHWH)
Or
He is just one of the lords (small 'l') that YHWH is Lord of.
Christians confess that Jesus is Lord and thus Lord of lords and thus LORD (YHWH).
Romans 10:9
New International Version (©1984)
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be savedPhilippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Romans 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Acts 16:31 They replied, “ Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved– you and your household.”
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Some of you on HN think the 'L' in Lord should be a small 'l' as in lord but does that confession glorify the Father? Lord with the capital 'L' is a different meaning than the lord without the capital 'L.'
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,11:39) A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
John 17:16
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,12:13) Jesus is either Lord and thus Lord of lords and thus LORD (YHWH) Or
He is just one of the lords (small 'l') that YHWH is Lord of.
I don't see any SCRIPTURAL reason to make that distinction, Kathi.That's like saying King Nebuchadnezzar is EITHER just a king that Jehovah is over, OR the King of kings, which makes him Jehovah Himself.
Yet he was a king that Jehovah was over AND the King of kings. But he was never Jehovah Himself.
Similarly, Jesus is a Lord who is over many other lords, but is still under his own Lord, Jehovah.
So is he “Lord”, with a capped “L”? Sure. The capped “L” places him in a prominent position in the English language.
Is he a Lord over other lords? Sure. In fact, he is over EVERY other lord EXCEPT for his own Lord, Jehovah.
Is he Jehovah Himself? Nope. Jehovah is not only our God, but also Lord Jesus' God.
Mike,
I am quite aware that you cannot make this confession:Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness.
Also, regarding King Neb…obviously he is just the king of kings (in his day) not the King of kings (of eternity).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,16:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,11:39) A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
John 17:16
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
They are/were still IN the WORLD.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,05:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,16:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,11:39) A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
John 17:16
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
They are/were still IN the WORLD.
kATHIQuote Rev 17:14
New International Version (©1984)
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings–and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”THOSE THAT ARE WITH THE LORD ARE IN ,WITH HIM AT HIS SECOND RETURN AND SO ARE IN HEAVEN (144k)
(SORRY BUT MY KEYBOARD IS STUCK ON THE CAPS LETTERS )
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,05:55) Mike,
I am quite aware that you cannot make this confession:Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness.
Also, regarding King Neb…obviously he is just the king of kings (in his day) not the King of kings (of eternity).
K1JN 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
1JN 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.that was the year 90 AD and the corruption was already well advance ;and so John give a key to be able to recognize the weeds in the truth ,
Here is another 'key' from John:
John 8:28
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.John wrote the gospel of John because the corruption that was already advancing needed to be shown the truth of the divinity of Christ.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,16:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,11:39) A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
John 17:16
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
Mike,
All men alive on earth are in this world. Some of these men belong to the 'Light' and some belong to the 'darkness.' Nevertheless, both groups of men are still in this world. satan is the ruler of the spiritual darkness and the Lord Jesus is the ruler of the spiritual Light (all authority has been given Him).satan is not the God of this world for it contains both groups, those in darkness AND those in Light. satan is the ruler of the spiritual darkness of this world but not the ruler of the spiritual Light of this world. satan eventually loses his rule and his power over death has already been broken by the crucifixion and resurrection of our dear Lord Jesus.
1 Thess 5
1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,a you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5For you are all childrenb of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,11:12) Here is another 'key' from John:
John 8:28
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.John wrote the gospel of John because the corruption that was already advancing needed to be shown the truth of the divinity of Christ.
KathyJn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
what that mean ? When ye have lifted up the Son of man,…
who is the “YE”
?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,17:55) Mike,
I am quite aware that you cannot make this confession:Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness.
I can confess exactly what the scripture ACTUALLY says: Jesus Christ is the one my God Jehovah made Lord over me. He is therefore my Lord.You are correct that neither I, nor anyone else, can say “Jesus is the LORD Jehovah” by any spirit of holiness – because it simply isn't the case. Nor were those words ever written by anyone inspired by God.
As for King Nebuchadnezzar, my point remains the same – whether or not he was an eternal king. And your claim has been nullified.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,23:12) Here is another 'key' from John:
John 8:28
So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me.
Pierre,Kathi WANTS Jesus to have said, “then you will know that I am I AM”, because she IMAGINES that by uttering the most common pronoun/verb phrase in any language (I am), Jesus is SECRETLY claiming to be Jehovah.
But like I keep telling her, EVERY TIME Jehovah ever claimed to BE Jehovah in the OT, the Hebrew words were “I am I AM” – not just “I AM”.
But let's look at Kathi's version:
…..then you will know that I am Jehovah God Almighty, and, for some odd reason, even though I am God Almighty, I can do nothing on my own authority. Also, even though I am God Almighty, my own God, the Father, has to teach me what to speak to the humans.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,17:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2012,16:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2012,11:39) A sidenote in regards to your other post:
Those 'faithful followers' are from the world.
John 17:16
They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
They are/were still IN the WORLD.
We are physically and fleshly “of this world”, Kathi. But the flesh counts for nothing. Spiritually, we are to NOT be “of this world”.I have been reading the points you've been making to t8 on this subject, and they have been some scripturally valid points.
I have always understood 4:4 to be speaking about Satan as the “god of this world” – but part of that could be because that's the FIRST way I ever understood those words. And THAT could be because virtually every English translation has a lower case “g” in “god” in that verse – including the first version I ever read.
So, in that sense, my current understanding quite possibly could be biased by English translators.
Jack brought this point up years ago, and I'll tell you what I told him: We can't really know for sure (because of the valid points both you and t8 have shown in this thread).
Why did the “god of this age” discussion come up in the first place?
Mike we are told this:
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.”
This is a reference to Satan, not YHWH. It is Satan who rules this wicked world. That is why he offered Jesus to be a king. He made the claim that he could give Jesus any of these worldly kingdoms. Sure God is the ultimate authority, but God does not rule from this world, but from his Kingdom. And that is why the Kingdom of God will strike the statue at its feet and all the kingdoms of the world will be superseded by the Kingdom of God.
YHWH is not wicked and we are to love YHWH. Yet we are instructed clearly to not love this world and we are told that we are not of it. If the world was YHWH's then why are we warned about the world. For if we love the world and the things of the world, then the love of God is not in us.
How clear does it need to be. Of course we love those who are in the world, even if they hate God, but we should not love the world itself.
God even sent his servants to the world and the world sent them back to God in coffins, even the son did they kill. It is quite normal to understand that the ruler of this world is wicked and that we fight against spiritual wickedness in high places.
And the reason this was ever brought up was to prove that theos and elohim can apply to others besides YHWH. Whereas Trinitarians and Binitarians say that only the Father and Jesus, and/or the Spirit are God. If Satan is the theos of this world, then that casts doubt on Jesus being YHWH by reason of being called theos. But even then, Thomas quote could well have been talking to Jesus and the Father as he used 2 definite articles, so it might not even need to be established that others can be theos for the purpose of this debate.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 19 2012,07:39) If your confession is that Jesus is Lord, what you mean is that He is lord because you teach that He is not Lord of lords since that would be YHWH. Get it?
Fair enough. You also say he is Lord, but only when challenged. “No one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit of God”.I am still highly suspicious that you say “Jesus is LORD” and only say “Jesus is Lord” when pressed on that issue.
Anyone can say anything for whatever reason, but I think this is more about what you say in your usual speech as a result as to what you believe in your heart.
Because you say that Jesus Christ is LORD, you never for that reason say that he is Lord. It is not part of your teaching or confession. And the fact that you would have to say that YHWH is Lord as well if Jesus is, is quite worrying. There is more to this LU than you think. It is about what Spirit you are of.
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