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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:58) Mike, I have the NT to show that Jesus is the Lord of lords and our one Lord with the Father who is our one God. According to your logic, the Son could be alone the God of gods and the Lord of lords. 1 Cor 8:6 confirms that there are two who are meant, and they are one.
Kathi, after all this time, you are now left with NOTHING to support your claim that Deuteronomy 10:17 MUST be talking about some “echad unity God”, for you have already acknowledged that it could just as well have been speaking about ONLY the Father being the God of gods AND the Lord of lords – because the Father IS both of those things, right?And 1 Cor 8:6 says nothing about them being “one”. It lists a hierarchy of those who rule over us: God being the highest, and the one He made Lord being the next in line. This understanding is CLEARLY explained, BY THE SAME AUTHOR, in 1 Cor 11:3.
Wrong! 1 Cor 8:6 clearly shows one as God and one as Lord, not one as both God and Lord.Are you trying to say that a unity cannot have different levels of authority among the members? Surely you know better. Even in the unity of marriage, one is head of the other…they are still one! By the same author, btw, see 1 Cor 11:3.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:17) These were from a post you overlooked: 1. Well Kathi? WERE the original disciples of Jesus Christians or not?
2. And DO you worship “God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty” along with worshiping “God Almighty the Master of God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty”?
Mike,
1. Yes, the disciples of Jesus were Christians. Was Jesus a Christian Mike? Or, is He the Christ that the Christians serve? What is your point?2. I worship the God of gods and the Lord of lords, Father and Son together with their Spirit. I thought you 'got that' already…in fact I have told you this over and over.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,03:41) Jesus has a God and that God is my God. And all the Trinitarians said: “Same with us, BUT, Jesus is the one true God too”.
And what does “yes, but” really mean?
t8,
Even the Jews knew that the 'The Son of God' was equal to God. That is why they were saying that He was blaspheming and attempting to stone Him.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,03:45) You claim that John 10 is quoting Psalm 82 and you are correct but Psalm 82 does not say that God is speaking to men anywhere in the verse you quoted as a proof that men are called theos or even elohim. I realize that some teach this but literally, it does not clearly teach this. Try again.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees when he said that. Isn't that the point.Yes there is a divine council and we know that there are 24 elders before the throne for example. But those who administered God's law, were also part of the divine council.
John 10:33-35:
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
6 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?This is becoming quite the bore, but will continue for the sake of those who can hear.
Notice verse 35.
“If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,”So to whom did the Word of God come? That might be a question that you should ask yourself. Because the Word of God came to men too. And if you look carefully, you will see that Jesus defended the accusation that he was claiming to be God by answering with the exact answer I have been saying all along, that Jesus is 'God's Son', thus he is part of the divine council and thus he is also called theos for that reason. Can you see that? Jesus was saying that he was not THE God, but that he was indeed 'theos' in the sense of being part of the divine council of God.
So in conclusion, you say that “theos” is not applied to men. Wrong. Jesus was a man, the Judges were men, and the Pharisees who were suppose to hold the seat of Moses were men. That is why Jesus said about the Pharisees, “do as they say, not as they do”. He was careful not to undermine their authority and council, but was quick to point out that they were hypocrites.
Finally, have you not read that the world to come is subject to men?
Hebrews 2:5-7
5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honorQuote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,03:45) Regarding satan…please define 'world' for me. Wouldn't that mean all people? Isn't all people summed up in all Jews and Gentiles? The Bible tells us that God, not satan, is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Kathi. Satan is the god of this world.
He is the god of this age.
He is the god of this eon.
He is the ruler of this world/age/eon.So he is a god. He is also a father. The father of lies.
If we love this world/age/eon, then the love of the Father is not in us.
Anyone who attributes this world to YHWH is insulting God.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,14:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,03:45) You claim that John 10 is quoting Psalm 82 and you are correct but Psalm 82 does not say that God is speaking to men anywhere in the verse you quoted as a proof that men are called theos or even elohim. I realize that some teach this but literally, it does not clearly teach this. Try again.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees when he said that. Isn't that the point.Yes there is a divine council and we know that there are 24 elders before the throne for example. But those who administered God's law, were also part of the divine council.
John 10:33-35:
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
6 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?This is becoming quite the bore, but will continue for the sake of those who can hear.
Notice verse 35.
“If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,”So to whom did the Word of God come? That might be a question that you should ask yourself. Because the Word of God came to men too. And if you look carefully, you will see that Jesus defended the accusation that he was claiming to be God by answering with the exact answer I have been saying all along, that Jesus is 'God's Son', thus he is part of the divine council and thus he is also called theos for that reason. Can you see that? Jesus was saying that he was not THE God, but that he was indeed 'theos' in the sense of being part of the divine council of God.
So in conclusion, you say that “theos” is not applied to men. Wrong. Jesus was a man, the Judges were men, and the Pharisees who were suppose to hold the seat of Moses were men. That is why Jesus said about the Pharisees, “do as they say, not as they do”. He was careful not to undermine their authority and council, but was quick to point out that they were hypocrites.
Finally, have you not read that the world to come is subject to men?
Hebrews 2:5-7
5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
t8,
In Ps 82, there is no mention of the council of gods being men. That is the point. I was not referring to who He was talking to in John 10 but what Jesus was referring to in Ps 82 when quoting it in John 10.Consider Job 6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.Were those men in Job 6 that came to present themselves before the LORD, t8?
If you are so bored with this, consider that you are leaning on your assumption. Many commentators suggest that the divine council is in heaven and made up of celestial beings of some sort. Why not read this and see that this really challenges your view, unless you are afraid of a challenge.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/
click on “Jesus, John 10 and Ps 82”Ask yourself why the Jews would want to stone Jesus if He were claiming that He was a Son of God just like other men. Why in Ps 82 would the LORD tell the 'sons of elohim' that they were going to die just like men if they were men?
Can you show me where the elders of Israel are called 'theos' specifically? The twenty-four 'elders' around the throne aren't called 'theos,' fyi. So far you haven't been able to show me anything except assumptions. Being a religious ruling elder does not make one a theos, nor are they called 'theos.'
Jesus mention of Ps 82 in John 10 was not to show that He was equally a theos as the members of the divine council, but that He should be considered theos much more so than the mere members of the divine council because Jesus was set apart from them and was God's very own.
The Jews understood that:
The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”The Jews understood Jesus to be making Himself out to be a God. Jesus was not making Himself out to be God the Father but God as the Son. This is not the only time this came up. In fact, He was crucified because of this.
So, I will continue to wait for you to provide proof that men are called 'theos' from scripture, not from assumptions.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,14:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,03:45) Regarding satan…please define 'world' for me. Wouldn't that mean all people? Isn't all people summed up in all Jews and Gentiles? The Bible tells us that God, not satan, is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Kathi. Satan is the god of this world.
He is the god of this age.
He is the god of this eon.
He is the ruler of this world/age/eon.So he is a god. He is also a father. The father of lies.
If we love this world/age/eon, then the love of the Father is not in us.
Anyone who attributes this world to YHWH is insulting God.
t8,
you said:Quote Satan is the god of this world.
Nope…he is considered a ruler, but not 'the god.'Quote He is the god of this age.
He is the god of this eon.
He is the ruler of this world/age/eon.I asked you to define your use of the word “world.” Are you defining 'world' as 'age?'
satan is the father of lies but not the god of this world.
There are many gods and many lords in heaven and on earth but for us there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. The one who is God of this world, loves the world and sent His Son. Did satan love the world and send his son?
You are sadly mistaken, t8. The 'theos' who is the Father and the 'theos' who is the Son both rule over satan in this age and always. It is not the other way around. Ask yourself who is ultimately ruling over this age? Jesus said that all authority has been given Him. Hmmm…
Matt 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Did you see the words 'has been?' They are not 'will be.'
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:24) From what I am learning about demons, they are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim.
That very well could be. Enoch says their FLESH would be destroyed in the flood, along with most of mankind.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:24) Regarding Job 1:6…the 'sons of elohim' are created celestial beings.
Angels? Or no?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:24) If you believe that in Mark 3 Beelzebub is satan, then you must say that the demons are also satan. No mention of fallen angels here.
How about Luke?Luke 11:18
If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.You seriously don't see this as Jesus equating Beelzebub with Satan? Most commentators will disagree with you on that one. In fact, it seems to be the general consensus that Baalzebul from the OT is Satan from the NT.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,19:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:38) I understand that demons are false gods.
Where in scripture are they called “false” gods?
What does it matter if the words are used specifically? If you believe they are true Gods then you have a dilemma on your hands don't you?
Why? What dilemma? Please explain.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:55) Do you see how deceitful that was? Did you intend to be deceitful? So, you can't really show me where Pharaoh called Moses by the name 'God' can you?
I often post only the part of the scripture that is pertinent to the discussion, Kathi. There is no deceit in doing so. In fact, I just posted partial scriptures in the “Beginning” thread about 15 minutes ago. Go check the time stamps if you want.The point of Exodus 7:17 still remains that MOSES was the one holding the staff, yet JEHOVAH said HE was holding the staff. See? I quoted the part that was pertinent to the point I was trying to make.
Also, I NEVER claimed that Pharaoh called Moses a god. I could claim that his priests refered to AARON as a god in Ex 8:19 – if I was so inclined.
You have read the point I made. And you apparently cannot say anything to refute that point.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:55) ……..it was speaking about 'God Almighty the Father doing miracles, wonders and signs through God Almighty the Son……
All I said was that we all know it was Jehovah doing the signs and wonders through Moses, just it was He who did them through His holy servant Jesus Christ. It was YOU who apparently took offense to my perfectly scriptural statement.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:55) There are created celestial beings called sons of gods, gods, some called angels, some called demons, principalities, powers, beasts. I do not have it all figured out, do you?
Now was that so hard, Kathi? I don't have the time or the INTEREST in reading MANY of the things you link for us here. We have different interests, and mine are more geared to delving deeper into the actual SCRIPTURES, while yours are more geared to reading ANY man-written thing that you think agrees with whatever your doctrine is at any particular time. And NO, I don't have it all figured out, either. I DO know that Manoah called an ANGEL of Jehovah “god”. And I know that Moses, the HUMAN and JUDGE was called “god” in scripture.
So while the rest of this has been interesting, and has caused me to delve into the scriptures, the three points t8 originally made, which started this whole thing, have been scripturally confirmed.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,17:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:37) Do you deny that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are one? Yes or No?
Yes. Now what?
Mike,
Are you asking me or your conscious?
You. I was assuming you were about to tell me how all this proves Jesus is “Jehovah Jr.”, or whatever.Let 'er rip.
Why do you say that the God of gods is not one with the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent? Please defend your stand.
What?
OH! I originally read your question as “Do you AGREE”, not “Do you DENY”. My bad!
NO, I don't deny that fact. Now what?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,08:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:05) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:55) All you have 'painstakingly' explained is that being one in them is the same as being one with them. However in the post that I quoted you said that disciples are not one 'in' them.
Is Jesus one “IN” the Father? Or is he one “WITH” the Father?
Both…and eternally!! They are one, eternally!
Ay yi yi!“Jesus being IN God” equals “Jesus being one WITH God”.
“The disciples being IN them” equals “The disciples being one WITH them”.
This is really not that hard, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,09:02) Wrong! 1 Cor 8:6 clearly shows one as God and one as Lord, not one as both God and Lord.
EXACTLY! ! !ONE is God, Kathi. The other is the one that God MADE our Lord. He wasn't “Lord” from eternity, or it could never be said that God MADE him Lord.
Also, this is just a diversion away from the REAL point, which is:
There is NO scriptural reason whatsoever to assume that the Father ALONE isn't the one who is called “the God of gods AND the Lord of lords” in Deut 10:17.
Deut 10:17 speaks about our heavenly Father Jehovah, and points out that HE is both a God of other gods, and a Lord of other lords.
You have NO reason to think otherwise, least of all the words of 1 Cor 8:6.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,09:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:17) 1. WERE the original disciples of Jesus Christians or not? 2. And DO you worship “God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty” along with worshiping “God Almighty the Master of God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty”?
Mike,
1. Yes, the disciples of Jesus were Christians. What is your point?2. I worship the God of gods and the Lord of lords, Father and Son together with their Spirit.
1. The point was that the disciples were the ones to whom Jesus refered when he said, “Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”The God of the disciples is the Father, just as the God of Jesus is the Father. So apparently, the God of the very first “Christians” is the Father.
My God is the God of Jesus, Kathi. YOUR God is some jumbled up mish mash combination of Jesus and his God.
2. And COULD (not “would”) one also state it the way I stated it in the quote box above? Have I spoken inaccurately about what you believe with my words above? If so, how so?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,15:40) Matt 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Did you see the words 'has been?' They are not 'will be.'
Do YOU see the words “GIVEN TO ME”?God Almighty doesn't need anyone to GIVE Him anything. (Notice also that Jesus doesn't say “RETURNED TO ME” – as if he had that authority before he emptied himself.)
kathi, I can see you are still stubbornly holding to your view.
Have you not read that the stone that strikes the statue is the Kingdom of God, and that it not only destroys all the kingdoms of the world, but it also the stone grows and covers the whole Earth. So is YHWH the god of both the world and the Kingdom of Heaven.
Also, Satan is the god of this age. You can believe that he is not and make YHWH the God of this world, but you have a big problem to work out because we are told not to love the world that you say that YHWH is the God of.
Go and figure that out for yourself if you can.
Satan is the god of this world. Perhaps if you understood the word 'world' you would change your view.
Do you know what Babylon means Kathi. It means confusion.
Come out of her Kathi, lest you partake of her sins.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,16:40) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2012,14:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,03:45) Regarding satan…please define 'world' for me. Wouldn't that mean all people? Isn't all people summed up in all Jews and Gentiles? The Bible tells us that God, not satan, is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Kathi. Satan is the god of this world.
He is the god of this age.
He is the god of this eon.
He is the ruler of this world/age/eon.So he is a god. He is also a father. The father of lies.
If we love this world/age/eon, then the love of the Father is not in us.
Anyone who attributes this world to YHWH is insulting God.
t8,
you said:Quote Satan is the god of this world.
Nope…he is considered a ruler, but not 'the god.'Quote He is the god of this age.
He is the god of this eon.
He is the ruler of this world/age/eon.I asked you to define your use of the word “world.” Are you defining 'world' as 'age?'
satan is the father of lies but not the god of this world.
There are many gods and many lords in heaven and on earth but for us there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. The one who is God of this world, loves the world and sent His Son. Did satan love the world and send his son?
You are sadly mistaken, t8. The 'theos' who is the Father and the 'theos' who is the Son both rule over satan in this age and always. It is not the other way around. Ask yourself who is ultimately ruling over this age? Jesus said that all authority has been given Him. Hmmm…
Matt 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Did you see the words 'has been?' They are not 'will be.'
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 06 2012,16:40) Hmmm… Matt 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Did you see the words 'has been?' They are not 'will be.'
Amen KathiBut they refuse to receive the truth because the Love of the Father is not in them! They give credence to other gods and at the same time try to say there is “Only One True God”.
WJ
Wj
Wen it says this world it means the earth and what it contains,and that his what was given to Satan to rule as he pleases under certain conditions and for certain reasons,
But Christ received all powers over the earth and heaven after his resurrection so until his resurrection Satan was the god or master of the earth ,funny you did not know this,😏
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2012,20:53) Amen Kathi But they refuse to receive the truth because the Love of the Father is not in them! They give credence to other gods and at the same time try to say there is “Only One True God”.
WJ
Oh no, the Trinitarians have joined up with the Binitarians.The power of five.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 07 2012,11:40) Nope…he is considered a ruler, but not 'the god.'
Okay, let me get this straight.You are saying that YHWH is the God of this age even though we are told not to love this age, and Satan is the ruler of this age.
So that means that God has made Satan one of the rulers of God's world.
Oh, this is getting worse Kathi.
One lie leads to another and so on.
Let me put this straight for you.
YHWH is the God of the Heavens and the Earth.
Satan is the God of this age/world/eon.God loved those in this world that he sent his son to die for their sins. And all things are being made subject to Jesus so eventually all will be back with God so that he can dwell in all.
The Kingdom of God will eventually destroy the kingdoms of the world and will remain forever.
But Kathi can only believe that God is the God of this world and he will destroy his own wicked world with his own Kingdom of God.
So for Kathi, the battle is really about God against God. And not God against Satan.
God is competing with his world and his kingdom.
Poor Kathi. She does not realise that this world is a system of government just as the Kingdom of God is.
She is espousing more confusion. She is babbling and hence why she needs to come out of Babylon.
Expect to see more babbling as she needs to reshape more and more scripture to fit her doctrine.
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