The Trinity Doctrine

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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,21:49)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:19) YHWH made Moses AS God to Aaron, YHWH did not make Moses a god to Aaron. Moses was metaphorically like God, not literally. You can ADD the word “as” into the Hebrew of Exodus 4:16 if it helps you to win your argument………… but that word isn't there.  This is just another case of men trying to “protect the Bible from itself”. NETNotes says that they ADD the words “as if” in Ex 4:16, and this is their note on the parallel wording in Ex 7:1, where they ADD the word “like”…….. The word “like” is added for clarity, making explicit the implied comparison in the statement “I have made you God to Pharaoh.” The word אֱלֹהִים (’elohim) is used a few times in the Bible for humans (e.g., Pss 45:6; 82:1), and always clearly in the sense of a subordinate to GOD – they are his representatives on earth. Here is another: Exodus 22:9 In all cases of illegal possession of an ox, a donkey, a sheep, a garment, or any other lost property about which somebody says, ‘This is mine,’ both parties are to bring their cases before the judges. The one whom the judges declare guilty must pay back double to his neighbour. Of course you'll say those mentions of “elohim” refer to “God” – with no real explanation of how they bring the parties to God, or how God declares one of the parties guilty. Here's another for your consideration: Psalm 138:1 I will praise You with my whole heart; Before the gods I will sing praises to You. Who are the gods David sings Jehovah's praises before? How about this one………… Ezekiel 31:11 I handed it over to the ruler of the nations, for him to deal with according to its wickedness. I cast it aside, The word translated as “ruler” is the Hebrew word “el”.  Who is this “god of the nations”, to whom Jehovah handed over Assyria?

Mike,

Do you believe that Moses is actually God or is he acting as God in that he speaks the words of God to Aaron?

Exodus 22:9
For every breach of trust, whether it is for an ox, for a donkey, for a sheep, for a cloak, or for any kind of lost thing, of which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before God. The one whom God condemns shall pay double to his neighbor.

Quote

Of course you'll say those mentions of “elohim” refer to “God” – with no real explanation of how they bring the parties to God, or how God declares one of the parties guilty.

I have shown you that bringing something or someone to God is not unusual. God may use elders to decide a matter but ultimately, the matter is brought to God even if men are used to speak for God.

Pss 54:6 is a Messianic Prophecy as shown in Hebrews 1 when spoken to Christ.

Pss 82:1, well, did you read that article about the council of gods?

Pss 138:1 This verse could refer to the gods of the nations.''

Ezekiel 31:11 See that article on the council of gods.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You can't admit this:

Mike,
Now, do you admit that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent, are one?

You have admitted that the God of gods sent the Lord of lords. You also admit that Jesus said 'the Father and I are one.' Why can't you admit that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent, are one? Are you afraid that your doctrine that you teach will fall flat before your eyes? It already has…you just can't admit it.

Do you deny that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are one? Yes or No?

Accept truth Mike, this isn't going away.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,22:02)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:43) Is the church not one in the Father and the Son? The words are “one WITH”, not “one IN”.  Try it with the right words.

Mike,

Where specifically does it say that the church is one 'with' the Father and the Son but can't mean one 'in' the Father and the Son?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,22:34)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2012,20:46) Kathi, is the Father a Lord of other lords?  YES or NO? Could you provide a specific Biblical context for your question and then I will answer that? How about Rev 15:3-4? In that passage, the Lamb calls Jehovah “Lord” twice.  Is the Lamb not a Lord himself?  And is Jehovah his Lord?  Doesn't that make Jehovah, not only a Lord of lords, but actually the Lord of a Lord of lords? Kathi, is the Father EVER called a Lord in any scripture?  (Matthew 11:25) Do you suppose that as “Lord of heaven and earth”, there just might be some lords that are under Him?  Don't you suppose that since Jesus, as a Lord himself, calls his Father and God “the Lord of heaven and earth”, that the Father is also Jesus' Lord? Come on, Kathi.  This is just more game playing. Answer my question with a YES or a NO.

Mike,

Rev 15 is a song about YHWH, the God of gods and the Lord of lords, both the Father and the Son.

The Father is called Lord in scripture and so is Jesus. The Father is called the God in scripture and so is Jesus.
Where does Jesus call the Father His Lord specifically?

Is the Father a Lord of other lords, depends on the context. In some contexts yes…in other contexts the Father is the God of gods and the Son is the Lord of lords.

Mike,
Is Jesus a God of other gods? YES or NO?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,21:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:40) Well the Christian's God is the Father with the Son together with the Holy Spirit but Jesus' God is the Father whom He is God with together with the Holy Spirit. So then the disciples of Jesus were not “Christians”?  Because it is they to whom he referred when he said “I go to my God and your God”. Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:40) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Therefore he is also equally “God Amighty the Servant”, right?  And “God Almighty the Priest”.  And “God Almighty the Anointed one of God”.  And “God Almighty the Sacrificial Lamb of God”.  Do you agree with all of these titles as well as “God Almighty the Son”? Yes…………. Yes?    You go ahead and worship the servant along with the Master if you want.  I'll worship the God OF the holy servant Jesus Christ – just like Jesus taught in scripture.

You might try Islam for your next religion.

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2012,12:28)

Mike you saved me a lot of trouble by taking on Kathi, i knew it would end up this way ,but not wasted as I can see going trough all the discussions you made ,for that I am thankfull to you ,it was more than educational,it was refreshing,

Don't flatter yourself Terricca. I had some good advice recently and have not bothered with your riff raff after that. I have not been challenged one time on here with you except for growing in patience. So, I guess, thank you for stretching my patience.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,13:55)

What I do not see are angels called theos in the NT. If they are gods somewhere in the OT why aren't they 'gods' in the NT? I don't believe they, the created angel beings, are called elohim or theos.

Deuteronomy 32:17 NIV ©
They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear.

The above scripture makes it pretty clear that demons are called gods in scripture.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

And the combination of these two scriptures seems to imply that “demons” are the “angels” of Satan.

It is clear that demons are called gods in scripture. Do you agree with me that demons are angels who follow Satan instead of following God?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,13:55)

I don't believe they, the created angel beings, are called elohim or theos.

I haven't yet watched the video you linked about the divine council. But if you are going to believe in a separate species of being in heaven, who are not angels – will you say that they are uncreated?

If not, then this point is really a non-point, because either way, created beings are called gods, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:28)

Mike, Do you believe that Moses is actually God or is he acting as God in that he speaks the words of God to Aaron?

I believe Jehovah made Moses a god from Pharaoh's viewpoint, complete with his own prophet Aaron.  The signs and wonders Moses and Aaron performed were nothing less then acts of a god – from the understanding of Pharaoh and his pagan priests and magicians.

Now WE all know it was Jehovah doing the acts THROUGH Moses and Aaron – just like we all know it was Jehovah doing the signs and wonders THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:28)

Pss 138:1 This verse could refer to the gods of the nations.''

And who are they?  Men?  Angels?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:37)

Do you deny that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are one? Yes or No?

Yes. Now what?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:38)

Mike, Where specifically does it say that the church is one 'with' the Father and the Son but can't mean one 'in' the Father and the Son?

Kathi,

I've already painstakingly explained this.  Here, I'll try again:

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus =  Jesus is one WITH God.

Disciples being in God and being in Jesus = Disciples being one WITH Jesus and his God.

Jesus is saying, May they also be one with us in the same way we are one with each other, by being in us like we are in each other.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:46)

Is the Father a Lord of other lords, depends on the context. In some contexts yes………

BINGO!  Now, you must admit that you have NOTHING except for your own, personal desires that cause you to think Deuteronomy 10:17 speaks of TWO.  You must admit, that since the Father alone IS a Lord over other lords, 10:17 could very well be speaking of ONLY the Father – calling ONLY HIM “the God of gods and the Lord of lords”.

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:46)

Rev 15 is a song about YHWH, the God of gods and the Lord of lords, both the Father and the Son.

You are in complete denial if you truly believe that.  Moses and the Lamb sing this song to their Lord.  That is why it is called “The Song of Moses and of the Lamb”.  

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:46)

Mike, Is Jesus a God of other gods? YES or NO?

Absolutely.  But only because Jesus is a god (mighty one) who is ABOVE the angels (other gods), and above men (who are also sometimes gods in Biblical language).

But for that to be the case, YOU must first admit that angels and men ARE called gods.  

If you refuse to admit this, then could you give me a different example of a god that Jesus is the god of – one who is NOT either an angel or a man?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:47)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,21:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:40) Well the Christian's God is the Father with the Son together with the Holy Spirit but Jesus' God is the Father whom He is God with together with the Holy Spirit. So then the disciples of Jesus were not “Christians”?  Because it is they to whom he referred when he said “I go to my God and your God”. Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:40) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Therefore he is also equally “God Amighty the Servant”, right?  And “God Almighty the Priest”.  And “God Almighty the Anointed one of God”.  And “God Almighty the Sacrificial Lamb of God”.  Do you agree with all of these titles as well as “God Almighty the Son”? Yes…………. Yes?    You go ahead and worship the servant along with the Master if you want.  I'll worship the God OF the holy servant Jesus Christ – just like Jesus taught in scripture. You might try Islam for your next religion.

Well Kathi?  WERE the original disciples of Jesus Christians or not?

And DO you worship “God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty” along with worshiping “God Almighty the Master of God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty”?  

I worship only the Master – just like Jesus and his original Apostles and disciples did. After all, Jesus plainly told us that his God is also our God. I believe him. You apparently don't.

No servant is as great as the Master who sends him.  I learned that from Jesus.

Your comment about Islam doesn't really address the points I made, does it?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,02:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2012,12:28) Mike you saved me a lot of trouble by taking on Kathi, i knew it would end up this way ,but not wasted as I can see going trough all the discussions you made ,for that I am thankfull to you ,it was more than educational,it was refreshing, Don't flatter yourself Terricca. I had some good advice recently and have not bothered with your riff raff after that. I have not been challenged one time on here with you except for growing in patience. So, I guess, thank you for stretching my patience.

Kathi

Nice it is at the least a plus,

But from all the quotes that you have exchanged with Mike and me ,you have shown that the scriptures were not written to support your views,and so you used lot of men made doctrines to support your views,

God said through Moses ,I PUT BEFORE YOU LIVE AND DEAD CHOSE LIFE !this is up to all of us ,including you Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,16:49)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,13:55) What I do not see are angels called theos in the NT. If they are gods somewhere in the OT why aren't they 'gods' in the NT? I don't believe they, the created angel beings, are called elohim or theos. Deuteronomy 32:17 NIV © They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear. The above scripture makes it pretty clear that demons are called gods in scripture. Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” And the combination of these two scriptures seems to imply that “demons” are the “angels” of Satan. It is clear that demons are called gods in scripture.  Do you agree with me that demons are angels who follow Satan instead of following God?

Mike,
From those verses it is not clear that fallen angels are demons. It is clear that demons are gods who are not God. I understand that demons are false gods.

Do you have something that clearly says demons are fallen angels? Do you have something that clearly says Beelzebub is satan?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,16:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,13:55) I don't believe they, the created angel beings, are called elohim or theos. I haven't yet watched the video you linked about the divine council.  But if you are going to believe in a separate species of being in heaven, who are not angels – will you say that they are uncreated? If not, then this point is really a non-point, because either way, created beings are called gods, right?

Mike,
I asked you to read the article…please do so.

Created beings are called theos and elohim, true. But for us there are only two theos and they are uncreated…they instead together were the creator.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
you said:

Quote

I believe Jehovah made Moses a god from Pharaoh's viewpoint, complete with his own prophet Aaron. The signs and wonders Moses and Aaron performed were nothing less then acts of a god – from the understanding of Pharaoh and his pagan priests and magicians.

Where does Pharaoh call Moses 'a god?'

Quote

Now WE all know it was Jehovah doing the acts THROUGH Moses and Aaron – just like we all know it was Jehovah doing the signs and wonders THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.

Jehovah, the Lord of lords is Jesus.

Regarding Pss 138:1 you said:

Quote

And who are they? Men? Angels?

Read the article!

When you get to the link, click on 'Jesus, John 10 and Psalm82.'

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,17:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:37) Do you deny that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are one? Yes or No? Yes.  Now what?

Mike,
Are you asking me or your conscious?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,15:38)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,22:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:43) Is the church not one in the Father and the Son? The words are “one WITH”, not “one IN”.  Try it with the right words. Mike, Where specifically does it say that the church is one 'with' the Father and the Son but can't mean one 'in' the Father and the Son?

Mike's reply:

Quote

Kathi, I've already painstakingly explained this. Here, I'll try again: John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus = Jesus is one WITH God. I see the words “in me” and “in you” but you sat the words are not “one IN.” Are you confused-icated? Disciples being in God and being in Jesus = Disciples being one WITH Jesus and his God. Jesus is saying, May they also be one with us in the same way we are one with each other, by being in us like we are in each other.

All you have 'painstakingly' explained is that being one in them is the same as being one with them. However in the post that I quoted you said that disciples are not one 'in' them.

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

BINGO! Now, you must admit that you have NOTHING except for your own, personal desires that cause you to think Deuteronomy 10:17 speaks of TWO. You must admit, that since the Father alone IS a Lord over other lords, 10:17 could very well be speaking of ONLY the Father – calling ONLY HIM “the God of gods and the Lord of lords”.

I have the NT to show that Jesus is the Lord of lords and our one Lord with the Father who is our one God. According to your logic, the Son could be alone the God of gods and the Lord of lords. 1 Cor 8:6 confirms that there are two who are meant, and they are one.

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