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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,22:24) Mike,
Exodus 21:6
then his master shall bring him to God,
In what way do you suppose the master was to bring the slave “to God”?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,22:24) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) To whom do you suppose Jesus referred using the word “gods” in John 10:34-35? Men? Or angels?
Neither.
Please explain. To WHOM then?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,22:24) So, no I do not concede one of my claims. I do not believe that in Psa 82:1, the elohim are angels because they do not make judgements and I do not think they are men because what use would it be to tell them they are going to die like men?
Then WHO are the elohim in 82:1? Are you really going to “win” this argument by claiming there exists a completely different species of being in heaven, who are called gods, but are not angels of God?Kathi, there are many other scriptures I could keep going through, but your determination seems evident. You are NOT going to be “wrong” on this one, no matter what scripture I show you. So here we go:
Manoah, knowing full well that he had just been visited by an ANGEL OF God, said he had seen “elohim”. An angel was called god.
Jehovah made Moses a god to Aaron, and Aaron his prophet. A human being was called god.
And, since Moses was the first judge Israel ever had, a judge was called god.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2012,21:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,22:24) Mike,
Exodus 21:6
then his master shall bring him to God,
In what way do you suppose the master was to bring the slave “to God”?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,22:24) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) To whom do you suppose Jesus referred using the word “gods” in John 10:34-35? Men? Or angels?
Neither.
Please explain. To WHOM then?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,22:24) So, no I do not concede one of my claims. I do not believe that in Psa 82:1, the elohim are angels because they do not make judgements and I do not think they are men because what use would it be to tell them they are going to die like men?
Then WHO are the elohim in 82:1? Are you really going to “win” this argument by claiming there exists a completely different species of being in heaven, who are called gods, but are not angels of God?Kathi, there are many other scriptures I could keep going through, but your determination seems evident. You are NOT going to be “wrong” on this one, no matter what scripture I show you. So here we go:
Manoah, knowing full well that he had just been visited by an ANGEL OF God, said he had seen “elohim”. An angel was called god.
Jehovah made Moses a god to Aaron, and Aaron his prophet. A human being was called god.
And, since Moses was the first judge Israel ever had, a judge was called god.
Mike,
you asked:Quote In what way do you suppose the master was to bring the slave “to God”? The Bible is unclear on this from what I can tell. Here is a passage about Jethro bringing something to God:
Exodus 18:12And Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and sacrifices to God; and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law before God.
So, in what manner were the burnt offering and sacrifices brought to God in the above passage before the tent of meeting was put up? Do you know? Whatever that answer would be, that might tell you how the slave was brought to God.
Quote Then WHO are the elohim in 82:1? Are you really going to “win” this argument by claiming there exists a completely different species of being in heaven, who are called gods, but are not angels of God? Read this and see what you think:
When you get to the link, click on 'Jesus, John 10 and Psalm82.'Mike,
more of your questions:Quote Kathi, there are many other scriptures I could keep going through, but your determination seems evident. You are NOT going to be “wrong” on this one, no matter what scripture I show you. So here we go: Manoah, knowing full well that he had just been visited by an ANGEL OF God, said he had seen “elohim”. An angel was called god.
Jehovah made Moses a god to Aaron, and Aaron his prophet. A human being was called god.
And, since Moses was the first judge Israel ever had, a judge was called god.
you said:
Quote Manoah, knowing full well that he had just been visited by an ANGEL OF God, said he had seen “elohim”. An angel was called god. Well, the messenger was first called 'the man of God' and the Bible calls him 'the messenger of God' and later, Manoah said that he had seen God which seems to be referring to the messenger of God that visited him. So, I do believe that in other passages the messenger is called YHWH, I don't know that this incident with Manoah is clear teaching that the messenger is actually called God or just thought of as God by a man who doesn't seem to be too clear on the matter.
More to come…
Mike,
cont'd:Quote Jehovah made Moses a god to Aaron, and Aaron his prophet. A human being was called god. And, since Moses was the first judge Israel ever had, a judge was called god.
YHWH made Moses AS God to Aaron, YHWH did not make Moses a god to Aaron. Moses was metaphorically like God, not literally.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2012,20:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,21:21) Being the Son of God equates Him with God the Father in nature and attributes.
And how about being the SERVANT of God? Does that also “equate” him with the God he serves?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,21:21) My point previously was that Jesus doesn't call Himself His own God but that doesn't mean that He is not our God also with the Father. Mary's God is the Father with the Son.
But if OUR God is truly “the Father with the Son”, then Jesus' God is really “the Father with the Son” – even though he “doesn't call himself his own God”, right?Does it make sense to you that Jesus IS his own God – even though he doesn't call himself his own God?
Too many rabbit trails, Kathi. Stick to what the scriptures DO say – not to the many imaginations of your own mind. What the scriptures DO say is that our God is also Jesus' God. If that God of Jesus is the Father, as the words in John 20:17 clearly imply, then the God of us is also the Father. And if the God of Jesus is the Father with no ifs, ands, or buts, then the God of us is also the Father with no ifs, ands, or buts.
So, as I see it, here are your two choices in the matter:
1. Jesus' God is the Father alone, and therefore our God is the Father alone.
2. Jesus really is his own God, even though he doesn't call himself his own God.
Which do you choose?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,21:21) But what you fail to see is that among being the Son, Servant, Mediator, Priest, Prophet, and Sacrificial Lamb of God, He is also Almighty God the Son.
Therefore he is also equally “God Amighty the Servant”, right? And “God Almighty the Priest”. And “God Almighty the Anointed one of God”. And “God Almighty the Sacrificial Lamb of God”. Do you agree with all of these titles as well as “God Almighty the Son”?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,21:21) The God of gods sent the Lord of lords into the world. The God of gods (the Father) part of the YHWH Echad sent the Lord of lords (the Son) part of the YHWH Echad into the world. Simple and scriptural. Surely you can admit that the God of gods sent the Lord of lords into the world, yes?
I do admit that the God of gods sent the Lord of lords into the world. I don't see any scriptural reason to add “the Father part of the YHWH Echad” or “the Son part of the YHWH Echad” – since these things aren't ever mentioned or taught in any scripture.But, not only did the God of gods send the Lord of lords into the world, God Most High sent his Servant Jesus into the world. Do you acknowledge that part of the equation?
Mike,
more of your questions:Quote And how about being the SERVANT of God? Does that also “equate” him with the God he serves? No, that is part of His strength and perfection though. Having God for His very own literal Father is what makes Him equally God in nature and attributes.
Quote But if OUR God is truly “the Father with the Son”, then Jesus' God is really “the Father with the Son” – even though he “doesn't call himself his own God”, right? Well the Christian's God is the Father with the Son together with the Holy Spirit but Jesus' God is the Father whom He is God with together with the Holy Spirit.
Quote Therefore he is also equally “God Amighty the Servant”, right? And “God Almighty the Priest”. And “God Almighty the Anointed one of God”. And “God Almighty the Sacrificial Lamb of God”. Do you agree with all of these titles as well as “God Almighty the Son”? Yes, He is also God Almighty the Son who became the God/Man and because He became the God/Man, He can be the High Priest and sacrificial Lamb.
I believe that God Almighty the Father also serves us greatly…He is always protecting us and caring for us. Do you agree?
Mike,
This is very good…you said:Quote I do admit that the God of gods sent the Lord of lords into the world. Now, do you admit that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent, are one?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2012,20:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,21:29) The disciples are not one with them as YHWH but one with them as the church.
I'm glad you've acknowledge that the disciples will be one with Jesus and his God.I'm not sure where you're coming up with the different meanings of “one with” though. What scriptural words in that passage are you using to decide that Jesus is “one with” his God in one particular way, and the disciples are “one with” their God in a different way?
Is the church not one in the Father and the Son?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2012,20:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,21:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2012,20:46) Kathi, is the Father a Lord of other lords? YES or NO?
In the context of 1 Cor 8:6, the Father is the God of other gods but not the Lord of other lords…that is Jesus.You have proven nothing.
Could you answer the question for me?
Could you provide a specific Biblical context for your question and then I will answer that?Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2012,05:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2012,10:26) t8-
Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
Where have men been called theos?
Where are angels called theos?
FatherEphesians 1:3
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Son (Not sure about this one as it could be easily referring to both the Father and the son.)
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Judges/Men
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’A quote from here: Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’Angels
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!
Quoted in Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”I can't see a scripture of them being called “theos”, except for Satan if you consider him an angel, albeit a fallen one. Angels are certainly called elohim. Translators often translate elohim as theos, and OT quotes of elohim often come out as NT theos. The instances of where angels are called elohim, they use the word angel instead, probably because it is more precise.
Satan
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).Some say that this is not Satan but YHWH because Satan is not a God. But YHWH is the elohim of the Earth, not the world and Satan is a god and a father too.
Idols
Exodus 20:23
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.Elohim as it is related to idols is translated at idols and not theos from what I can see.
I replied to your 'scriptural proofs' with this:Quote You replied with verses that do not specifically say that judges were theos, or men were theos, or that angels were called theos. So you need to find other verses that do say this or change your views here. Implications are not acceptable because they are subjective. you, t8, then replied with this:
Quote The scriptures I gave are very clear. I will compose that post again about Jesus saying “Ye are theos” when he was quoting “ye are elohim, ye are sons of the Most High”.
And the scripture that talks about angels being called gods.
But for now, I want to tell you that you are wrong about YHWH being the God of this world. It is Satan who is the ruler of this world. Have you not read where Satan offered Jesus the position to rule the kingdoms that were under his rule. He even said they were his and he could give them to whomever he wanted. (something like that, haven't got time to check).
It sounds to me that you are denying that Satan is the ruler of this world because you believe that YHWH is the ruler of this world. Is that correct?
Well, the verses that you gave for theos being the Father and the Son are clear but not the angels or men.
You claim that John 10 is quoting Psalm 82 and you are correct but Psalm 82 does not say that God is speaking to men anywhere in the verse you quoted as a proof that men are called theos or even elohim. I realize that some teach this but literally, it does not clearly teach this. Try again.
Your claim that Psalm 97:7 is quoted in Hebrews 1:6 is not true. They just have the same truth that all will worship Jesus, gods and angels.
Regarding satan…please define 'world' for me. Wouldn't that mean all people? Isn't all people summed up in all Jews and Gentiles? The Bible tells us that God, not satan, is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Regarding idols, yes they are referred to as gods who are said to be not gods really at all.
So, do you have any real proof texts that say angels or men are called theos?
It might cut down on your time if you simply read this about John 10, Psalm 81:
Read this and see what you think:
When you get to the link, click on 'Jesus, John 10 and Psalm82.'Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,12:36) Exodus 18:12And Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and sacrifices to God; and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law before God. So, in what manner were the burnt offering and sacrifices brought to God in the above passage before the tent of meeting was put up? Do you know? Whatever that answer would be, that might tell you how the slave was brought to God.
Many translations say “for God” in 18:12. That makes more sense. But “for God” won't work in the other scripture.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,13:07) I do believe that in other passages the messenger is called YHWH, I don't know that this incident with Manoah is clear teaching that the messenger is actually called God or just thought of as God by a man who doesn't seem to be too clear on the matter.
That sounds like “fast talking” to me, Kathi.
It's clear that Manoah knew it was an ANGEL OF God, yet he said they had seen “elohim”. Ie: An angel was called “god” in scripture.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:19) YHWH made Moses AS God to Aaron, YHWH did not make Moses a god to Aaron. Moses was metaphorically like God, not literally.
You can ADD the word “as” into the Hebrew of Exodus 4:16 if it helps you to win your argument………… but that word isn't there. This is just another case of men trying to “protect the Bible from itself”.NETNotes says that they ADD the words “as if” in Ex 4:16, and this is their note on the parallel wording in Ex 7:1, where they ADD the word “like”……..
The word “like” is added for clarity, making explicit the implied comparison in the statement “I have made you God to Pharaoh.” The word אֱלֹהִים (’elohim) is used a few times in the Bible for humans (e.g., Pss 45:6; 82:1), and always clearly in the sense of a subordinate to GOD – they are his representatives on earth.Here is another:
Exodus 22:9
In all cases of illegal possession of an ox, a donkey, a sheep, a garment, or any other lost property about which somebody says, ‘This is mine,’ both parties are to bring their cases before the judges. The one whom the judges declare guilty must pay back double to his neighbour.Of course you'll say those mentions of “elohim” refer to “God” – with no real explanation of how they bring the parties to God, or how God declares one of the parties guilty.
Here's another for your consideration:
Psalm 138:1
I will praise You with my whole heart; Before the gods I will sing praises to You.Who are the gods David sings Jehovah's praises before?
How about this one…………
Ezekiel 31:11
I handed it over to the ruler of the nations, for him to deal with according to its wickedness. I cast it aside,The word translated as “ruler” is the Hebrew word “el”. Who is this “god of the nations”, to whom Jehovah handed over Assyria?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:40) Well the Christian's God is the Father with the Son together with the Holy Spirit but Jesus' God is the Father whom He is God with together with the Holy Spirit.
So then the disciples of Jesus were not “Christians”? Because it is they to whom he referred when he said “I go to my God and your God”.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:40) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Therefore he is also equally “God Amighty the Servant”, right? And “God Almighty the Priest”. And “God Almighty the Anointed one of God”. And “God Almighty the Sacrificial Lamb of God”. Do you agree with all of these titles as well as “God Almighty the Son”? Yes………….
Yes? You go ahead and worship the servant along with the Master if you want. I'll worship the God OF the holy servant Jesus Christ – just like Jesus taught in scripture.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:42) Mike,
This is very good…you said:Quote I do admit that the God of gods sent the Lord of lords into the world. Now, do you admit that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent, are one?
Kathi,I'm not going to play your game. Like t8 and I have already pointed out, we could do the very same thing with Moses, ie: Ask you particular questions designed to make Moses into the God he served.
The God of gods also sent the King of kings into the world, right? Is King Nebuchadnezzar Jesus?
Stop playing.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:43) Is the church not one in the Father and the Son?
The words are “one WITH”, not “one IN”. Try it with the right words.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,15:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2012,20:46) Kathi, is the Father a Lord of other lords? YES or NO? Could you provide a specific Biblical context for your question and then I will answer that?
How about Rev 15:3-4?In that passage, the Lamb calls Jehovah “Lord” twice. Is the Lamb not a Lord himself? And is Jehovah his Lord? Doesn't that make Jehovah, not only a Lord of lords, but actually the Lord of a Lord of lords?
Kathi, is the Father EVER called a Lord in any scripture? (Matthew 11:25)
Do you suppose that as “Lord of heaven and earth”, there just might be some lords that are under Him? Don't you suppose that since Jesus, as a Lord himself, calls his Father and God “the Lord of heaven and earth”, that the Father is also Jesus' Lord?
Come on, Kathi. This is just more game playing.
Answer my question with a YES or a NO.
Mike
you saved me a lot of trouble by taking on Kathi, i knew it would end up this way ,but not wasted as I can see going trough all the discussions you made ,for that I am thankfull to you ,it was more than educational,it was refreshing,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,20:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,12:36) Exodus 18:12And Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and sacrifices to God; and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law before God. So, in what manner were the burnt offering and sacrifices brought to God in the above passage before the tent of meeting was put up? Do you know? Whatever that answer would be, that might tell you how the slave was brought to God.
Many translations say “for God” in 18:12. That makes more sense. But “for God” won't work in the other scripture.
Mike,
Luke 2
22And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the LordQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2012,20:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,13:07) I do believe that in other passages the messenger is called YHWH, I don't know that this incident with Manoah is clear teaching that the messenger is actually called God or just thought of as God by a man who doesn't seem to be too clear on the matter.
That sounds like “fast talking” to me, Kathi.It's clear that Manoah knew it was an ANGEL OF God, yet he said they had seen “elohim”. Ie: An angel was called “god” in scripture.
Mike,
Whether the messenger was elohim is not something that I dispute. The Word of God is certainly a messenger AND called elohim AND YHWH and appears in the OT.So, when the 'Angel of the Lord' is said to be YHWH or elohim, I do not disagree but embrace it as speaking about Jesus, the Word of God who is also called YHWH and elohim.
What I do not see are angels called theos in the NT. If they are gods somewhere in the OT why aren't they 'gods' in the NT? I don't believe they, the created angel beings, are called elohim or theos.
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