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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,14:26) t8-
1. Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
2. Where have men been called theos?
3. Where are angels called theos?
1. Judges 5:8 NASB ©
“New gods were chosen; Then war was in the gates. Not a shield or a spear was seen Among forty thousand in Israel.The new gods were Deborah and Barak.
2. See above. Also, you guys are quick to point out that Jesus is called god in Hebrews 1:8, but just as quick to forget that Paul was quoting Psalm 45:6, which was written about a human king.
3. Psalm 82:1 NET ©
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2012,10:38) Is this your way of saying that there are two that are called 'the theos' that are one?
It would be if I could see all the scriptures that called Jesus, theos. You said there were 5 or so, and that wouldn't be much to post here. Then I could go through each one and see if they have the definite article, i.e., THE theos.If they did, then that would be a yes.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2012,17:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,14:26) t8-
1. Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
2. Where have men been called theos?
3. Where are angels called theos?
1. Judges 5:8 NASB ©
“New gods were chosen; Then war was in the gates. Not a shield or a spear was seen Among forty thousand in Israel.The new gods were Deborah and Barak.
2. See above. Also, you guys are quick to point out that Jesus is called god in Hebrews 1:8, but just as quick to forget that Paul was quoting Psalm 45:6, which was written about a human king.
3. Psalm 82:1 NET ©
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
I don't remember seeing those before Mike.
I will post my ones too.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 17 2012,10:51) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2012,20:01) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2012,11:42) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,21:00) The game I like to play is to give direct answers to questions posed to me, which I've done several times tonight by the way.
Do you believe this to be true.“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
Yes or No.
For Is. The one who claims to give direct answers to questions posed to him.Please answer this.
My direct answer is….Read the second post down for my take on this verse. Again, we've been here before, you guys need some new material.
If you exegete this verse carefully it throws up significant problems for the henotheist – “eternal life” is predicated on “knowing” the Father and THE SON?? So according to your theology you have to “know” a big God and a little god to have eternal life?! Kindly explain…..
Is.Please provide this verse in your translation so to speak.
I had a look at your link and the supposed answer is somewhere in your long post and to be honest, if there was a diamond in there, I would mine for it. But for a stone, it would take too much time to look for and thus is not worth it to me.
It shouldn't take you 2 minutes to post the verse with a rendition of the same verse as you read it.
Once I read your translation of the verse, then it might make me want to look at your post again and see the thinking as to how you came to the conclusion that the only true God is not the Father exclusively in that verse.
Thanks in advance.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2012,10:26) t8-
Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
Where have men been called theos?
Where are angels called theos?
FatherEphesians 1:3
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Son (Not sure about this one as it could be easily referring to both the Father and the son.)
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Judges/Men
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’A quote from here: Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’Angels
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!
Quoted in Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”I can't see a scripture of them being called “theos”, except for Satan if you consider him an angel, albeit a fallen one. Angels are certainly called elohim. Translators often translate elohim as theos, and OT quotes of elohim often come out as NT theos. The instances of where angels are called elohim, they use the word angel instead, probably because it is more precise.
Satan
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).Some say that this is not Satan but YHWH because Satan is not a God. But YHWH is the elohim of the Earth, not the world and Satan is a god and a father too.
Idols
Exodus 20:23
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.Elohim as it is related to idols is translated at idols and not theos from what I can see.
Quote For Is. The one who claims to give direct answers to questions posed to him. Please answer this.
Quote My direct answer is…. Read the second post down for my take on this verse. Again, we've been here before, you guys need some new material.
If you exegete this verse carefully it throws up significant problems for the henotheist – “eternal life” is predicated on “knowing” the Father and THE SON?? So according to your theology you have to “know” a big God and a little god to have eternal life?! Kindly explain…..
Quote Please provide this verse in your translation so to speak. I had a look at your link and the supposed answer is somewhere in your long post and to be honest, if there was a diamond in there, I would mine for it. But for a stone, it would take too much time to look for and thus is not worth it to me.
It shouldn't take you 2 minutes to post the verse with a rendition of the same verse as you read it.
Once I read your translation of the verse, then it might make me want to look at your post again and see the thinking as to how you came to the conclusion that the only true God is not the Father exclusively in that verse.
Thanks in advance.
“Please provide this verse in your translation so to speak.” – what does that mean?!?Good grief t8, I was asked for a direct 'yes' or 'no' answer, so I responded with “yes” and also provided the detail supporting my answer…and, to paraphrase your response, 'I can't be bothered reading it'!
Well, for the record – you (and Mike) have been answered and you made no attempt to answer the question posed to you.
I'll rephrase the question so it's clear what I want to know from you – how do you reconcile John 17:3, which introduces the idea that salvation is predicated on “knowing” The Father and Son, with the monarchical monotheism soteriology that you hold to? Does your salvation depend on you “knowing” a big God and also a little sidekick god? Explain this to me.
A direct answer would be appreciated. Or do guys just rattle off questions here so that you stay on the offensive and your theology never really gets scrutinised?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 17 2012,17:22) Does your salvation depend on you “knowing” a big God and also a little sidekick god? Explain this to me.
I don't suppose I'd word it that way, but YES. We must know Jehovah (the “big God”) and His holy SERVANT Jesus (the “little sidekick god”) for our salvation. This is the way the “big God” decided it should be. And the “little sidekick god” didn't come to earth to do his own will, but the will of He who sent him.Paul, there is only one Most High God, and the angels and demons knew that Jesus was not that God, but the Son of that God. (Luke 1:32, Mark 5:7, etc.)
Jesus didn't claim to be that God, but said he was the Son of that God.
None of the disciples ever wrote that Jesus was that God. They all understood that he was the Son of that God.
So where exactly are you going wrong, Paul?
We can't help it that you guys WANT Jesus to BE the very God he is the Son of.
According to the scriptures, our eternal salvation depends on not only knowing the “big God”, but also on knowing the representative He sent to us.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 18 2012,13:22) Quote For Is. The one who claims to give direct answers to questions posed to him. Please answer this.
Quote My direct answer is…. Read the second post down for my take on this verse. Again, we've been here before, you guys need some new material.
If you exegete this verse carefully it throws up significant problems for the henotheist – “eternal life” is predicated on “knowing” the Father and THE SON?? So according to your theology you have to “know” a big God and a little god to have eternal life?! Kindly explain…..
Quote Please provide this verse in your translation so to speak. I had a look at your link and the supposed answer is somewhere in your long post and to be honest, if there was a diamond in there, I would mine for it. But for a stone, it would take too much time to look for and thus is not worth it to me.
It shouldn't take you 2 minutes to post the verse with a rendition of the same verse as you read it.
Once I read your translation of the verse, then it might make me want to look at your post again and see the thinking as to how you came to the conclusion that the only true God is not the Father exclusively in that verse.
Thanks in advance.
“Please provide this verse in your translation so to speak.” – what does that mean?!?Good grief t8, I was asked for a direct 'yes' or 'no' answer, so I responded with “yes” and also provided the detail supporting my answer…and, to paraphrase your response, 'I can't be bothered reading it'!
Well, for the record – you (and Mike) have been answered and you made no attempt to answer the question posed to you.
I'll rephrase the question so it's clear what I want to know from you – how do you reconcile John 17:3, which introduces the idea that salvation is predicated on “knowing” The Father and Son, with the monarchical monotheism soteriology that you hold to? Does your salvation depend on you “knowing” a big God and also a little sidekick god? Explain this to me.
A direct answer would be appreciated. Or do guys just rattle off questions here so that you stay on the offensive and your theology never really gets scrutinised?
Is, I asked a direct question. I can't be bothered with a wild goose chase.I simply want the scripture I quoted with your interpretation or translation of the verse so I can see how you read it.
It is really simple. Complicating it just shows me that you could be avoiding this exercise because you are ashamed to post your view in such simple terms.
So please have another go.
Something like this:
John 17:3 (NASB)
“And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent,”John 17:3 (YVV – Your Version of the verse)
“And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, A MEMBER of the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom THE FATHER (MEMBER) OF GOD hast sent WHO IS ALSO GOD, and WHO IS THE SON OF THE FATHER WHO IS ALSO LORD”.I know in advance you will not give your interpretation Is, because I know you are too ashamed to say it in public in simple terms. You avoid this shame by being complicated because you then sound intelligent and that makes you happy. What I have written in purple is what I believe your version of this verse is. Please make any edits if I am wrong on any point.
My interpretation is of course just as it is written in scripture and yours is not because you need additions. So let's all hear it in simple terms.
My translation of John 17:3, in its immediate context, is this:
John 17:1-5 (NASB)
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.I'm not a qualified translator and I'll take the NASB translators version as good. My interpretation of the verse (which is, I think, what you were after) is in the post I linked you to.
Can you answer my question please? Shouldn't be too difficult, and I assume you're at least willing to defend what it is that you hold to. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I have business travel this week, and I look forward to checking back in on the weekend.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 18 2012,12:00) My interpretation of the verse (which is, I think, what you were after) is in the post I linked you to.
Paul,t8 said he already looked at your link. He said that instead of him reading the entire manifesto, he would appreciate you posting the ONE OR TWO SENTENCES that show your “paraphrase”, or understanding of 17:3.
I didn't even bother to look at the link, because I already know you are a master at “diversion flooding” – which is the art of filling a post or subject matter with so much IRRELEVANT information that it takes weeks to read through and respond. (Your buddy Keith was also a master at this technique.)
Are you unable to post just the sentence or two that explains how you understand Jesus' words in John 17:3? Or is it that you need all those other words to hide your weak explanation?
The following is MY understanding of YOUR understanding of John 17:3………………..
This is eternal life, that they may know You,the only true GodONE OF THE THREE MEMBERS OF THE ONLY TRUE GODHEAD, and Jesus Christ, A DIFFERENT MEMBER OF THE ONLY TRUE GODHEAD, whom You have sent.Is the above an accurate portrayal of your understanding of the verse?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 19 2012,08:00) My translation of John 17:3, in its immediate context, is this: John 17:1-5 (NASB)
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.I'm not a qualified translator and I'll take the NASB translators version as good. My interpretation of the verse (which is, I think, what you were after) is in the post I linked you to.
Can you answer my question please? Shouldn't be too difficult, and I assume you're at least willing to defend what it is that you hold to. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I have business travel this week, and I look forward to checking back in on the weekend.
Okay then that means that you have no choice but to believe as I do, that the only true God is the Father and the only true God sent his son who is not the only true God.Oh, I see, Is. I have to find it in the long post. Okay, I hope it jumps out at me and I will quote it here. Otherwise, I will have to ask again if it is not there, or I can't find it.
Is, I can't find it. I can see 1 John 1:2-3, but not your paraphrase of John 17:1-5. Please copy and paste it as it will take you less than a minute if it is there. I would appreciate that.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 19 2012,08:00) Can you answer my question please? Shouldn't be too difficult, and I assume you're at least willing to defend what it is that you hold to. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Is, I will answer your question when you answer mine.I asked a question and you answered my question with your question.
Give me an answer first, and then I will gladly answer yours.
I think that is fair.
Hello, I hope that all members in America had a Happy Thanksgiving! I was gone out of town for a week but I'm back and I see that there are many posts to address.
Mike, and t8,
I do not have time now to address everything so, bring up again what you would especially like me to address and I will do the same. Sorry for any confusion.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2012,22:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,05:38) T8 and Mike,
Please answer this question:
Do you agree that the two who are called 'the theos' in scriptures and are together involved in creation, salvation of all mankind, sit together on one throne, whose name has power to heal, who receive all praise honor, glory AND dominion FOREVER and EVER, are one according to Jesus?
Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”It's funny you mention sitting on the throne and the praise and honor thing, when the above scripture lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One sitting on the throne when it mentions him having that praise and honor.
The answer to your question is “YES”. But as t8 pointed out, anyone can do the same thing with any preferred criteria. I might work one out for Moses, just to show you how easy it is to try and FORCE the scriptures to teach what you WANT them to teach.
Tell me how all the things you listed make null and void the fact that we have but ONE God, and that God is not only OUR God, but also JESUS' God.
Tell me how those things change the fact that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son, Servant, Mediator, Priest, Prophet, and Sacrificial Lamb OF God Almighty.
Tell me how those things change the words, “God sent me into the world” to “The Father part of the echad unity Godhead thingy sent me into the world”.
So, I asked Mike and t8 this question:Do you agree that the two who are called 'the theos' in scriptures and are together involved in creation, salvation of all mankind, sit together on one throne, whose name has power to heal, who receive all praise honor, glory AND dominion FOREVER and EVER, are one according to Jesus?
Mike answered yes. Thank you Mike. I don't believe t8 gave a direct yes or no. How about it t8, yes or no?
Mike asked:
Quote It's funny you mention sitting on the throne and the praise and honor thing, when the above scripture lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One sitting on the throne when it mentions him having that praise and honor. Why is that funny? Are you going to act like you don't know that the Son sits on the same throne with His Father and that all glory, honor, dominion and praise is directed towards both the Father and the Son?
Quote Tell me how all the things you listed make null and void the fact that we have but ONE God, and that God is not only OUR God, but also JESUS' God. Are you Cody's father?
Are you your own father??
See the difference?You are a father but you are not your own father. So does that make you not a father?
Jesus is a 'the theos' but He is not His own 'the theos' but that does not make Him not a 'the theos.'
Your argument is a fail.
Quote Tell me how those things change the fact that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son, Servant, Mediator, Priest, Prophet, and Sacrificial Lamb OF God Almighty. Jesus is not God Almighty the Father but He is God Almighty the Son.
Quote Tell me how those things change the words, “God sent me into the world” to “The Father part of the echad unity Godhead thingy sent me into the world”. I don't understand the question. Would you like to re-state it?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,15:26) t8-
Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
Where have men been called theos?
Where are angels called theos?
I asked t8 this question in the quoted post and did not get an answer but scripture that do not specifically say that judges are theos, or men, or angels. He tried to tell me that satan was the god of this world and that the God of Israel is not…wow!Isn't the God of Israel the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2012,22:21) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,19:42) Where doe it say that some of us will also be one 'with' them?
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.It seems to me that “being one” means Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus. And his PRAYER to HIS OWN GOD is that we ALSO be in them, making us one with them.
The difference Mike, is what are they one as and what are believers in them one as? What they are and what believers are would be two different things. They are one as the YHWH Echad and believers are the one church which honors, serves, praises and gives dominion to the YHWH Echad for ever and ever.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2012,22:25) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,19:49) Mike,
you asked:Quote
Kathi,
1. Is it possible that the Father, BY HIMSELF, is the God of gods and Lord of lords?2. Is it possible that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, who is ALSO called by the title “Lord of lords”?
3. Does the fact that the Father and the Son share a title automatically combine them together in some compound unity echad Godhead thing?
(Please answer the above questions DIRECTLY and HONESTLY.)
1. Not according to 1 Cor 8:6
2. Not according to 1 Cor 8:6 and Deut 10:17
3. Yes it can…especially the title 'The First and the Last,' this title is the meaning of YHWH, eternal existence.
1. Please explain how God making Jesus our Lord prohibits Deuteronomy 10:17 from calling the Father ALONE “the God of gods and Lord of lords”. Kathi, do you contest that the Father is a Lord over other lords?2. There is nothing in either of those scriptures that prohibits Jesus from being a Lord over other lords while his own God is a DIFFERENT Lord over other lords.
3. The words “it can” are very telling, Kathi. Read my question #3 again, and pay close attention to the word “AUTOMATICALLY”. Then try your answer again, please.
Mike,
you asked:Quote 1. Please explain how God making Jesus our Lord prohibits Deuteronomy 10:17 from calling the Father ALONE “the God of gods and Lord of lords”. Kathi, do you contest that the Father is a Lord over other lords? I answered you with 1 Cor 8:6 which prohibits Deuteronomy 10:17 from calling the Father ALONE 'the God of gods and Lord of lords.”
Quote 2. There is nothing in either of those scriptures that prohibits Jesus from being a Lord over other lords while his own God is a DIFFERENT Lord over other lords. Scripture does not say anything about the Father being a Lord over different lords than whom Jesus is Lord over.
Quote 3. The words “it can” are very telling, Kathi. Read my question #3 again, and pay close attention to the word “AUTOMATICALLY”. Then try your answer again, please. When the title that they share is 'the First and the Last' as persons, not things, then the title automatically combines them together as being eternal and united.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 16 2012,22:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,14:26) t8-
1. Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
2. Where have men been called theos?
3. Where are angels called theos?
1. Judges 5:8 NASB ©
“New gods were chosen; Then war was in the gates. Not a shield or a spear was seen Among forty thousand in Israel.The new gods were Deborah and Barak.
2. See above. Also, you guys are quick to point out that Jesus is called god in Hebrews 1:8, but just as quick to forget that Paul was quoting Psalm 45:6, which was written about a human king.
3. Psalm 82:1 NET ©
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
Mike,
you said:Quote 1. Judges 5:8 NASB ©
“New gods were chosen; Then war was in the gates. Not a shield or a spear was seen Among forty thousand in Israel.The new gods were Deborah and Barak.
The new 'gods' were not Deborah and Barak. Try again.
Quote 2. See above. Also, you guys are quick to point out that Jesus is called god in Hebrews 1:8, but just as quick to forget that Paul was quoting Psalm 45:6, which was written about a human king. Context will show you in Psalm 45 that this is a messianic prophecy and not addressed literally to a human king as 'the theos.' Hebrews 1:8 confirms this.
Quote 3. Psalm 82:1 NET ©
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.No mention of the 'gods' here as being angels.
TRY AGAIN
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