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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,18:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Obama, your President, is ONE. Don't you see that this would be ridiculous to say about one singular person? Hey everyone Obama is one person…spread the word.
YES, I DO see that!
So what scripture makes you think Jehovah isn't “one singular person”? Is it the 7000 times He's referred to with singular pronouns that make you think He's a unity? Or perhaps it's when it is said that Jehovah your God is ONE? Is that the part that makes you think He isn't “one singular person”?
Kathi, you hit the nail right on the head by saying how RIDICULOUS it would be to imagine that one singular person was a unity echad thingy. Yet you do it with our ONE God. God is like our “heavenly President”, if you will. And it's no more ridiculous to think Obama is a compound unity than it is to think our “heavenly President” is a compound unity.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,18:19) Israel is one.
If the context is speaking about the NATION of Israel, then it would stand to reason that it means “unified or united in some manner”. But God is not a NATION of many members, Kathi.On the other hand, if your statement referred to Jacob, then like you said before, it would be ridiculous to think it meant the one singular person of Jacob was some compound unity echad thing.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,18:13) I want truth to prevail.
Then answer my following question DIRECTLY and HONESTLY:Is it possible that Deuteronomy 10:17 refers ONLY to the Father as the God of gods AND the Lord of lords? YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,18:13) Jesus directly makes that claim that He and the Father are one.
He also makes request of his God and our God that some of us also be one with them. So what's your point?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,18:13) Mike, please answer this:
Can you show me that they weren't 'one' in the OT or before creation?
Let's see……………..Can YOU show ANY scripture (OT or NT) that says they've ALWAYS been “one”?
What I can show you are scriptures that say God has no beginning, and Jesus does. If Jesus hasn't always been around, then there's no way he could have always been “one” with his God and our God.
Kathi, you and I agree that “The Father” is the God of Jesus. Now, if we and Jesus have the same God, as your Lord said we do, who is our God?
(Answer: The same One who is the God of Jesus……….. “The Father”.
)Mike,
Quote So what scripture makes you think Jehovah isn't “one singular person”? The Shema. We both agree that it would seem odd for one person to declare that he is one. We also both can see that if Israel, as a nation, would say that it were one, that would make sense.
Mike,
Quote Yet you do it with our ONE God. The word 'God/god' has different meanings. In the Shema, it doesn't say that YHWH is one God. Is says that YHWH our God is YHWH Echad. You have to look at context to determine of God is said in a general sense as a type of being with a certain nature or a specific sense or a position, or a name.
Mike,
Quote Can YOU show ANY scripture (OT or NT) that says they've ALWAYS been “one”? They are both the 'First and the Last.' The First and the Last is another way for saying the name YHWH and YHWH is echad.
Quote Kathi, you and I agree that “The Father” is the God of Jesus. Now, if we and Jesus have the same God, as your Lord said we do, who is our God? But we both don't agree that Jesus' God is His creator, so we do not agree on who is the God of Jesus.
Mike,
Quote Quote Jesus directly makes that claim that He and the Father are one. He also makes request of his God and our God that some of us also be one with them. So what's your point?
Where doe it say that some of us will also be one 'with' them?
Mike,
you asked:Quote
Kathi,
1. Is it possible that the Father, BY HIMSELF, is the God of gods and Lord of lords?2. Is it possible that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, who is ALSO called by the title “Lord of lords”?
3. Does the fact that the Father and the Son share a title automatically combine them together in some compound unity echad Godhead thing?
(Please answer the above questions DIRECTLY and HONESTLY.)
1. Not according to 1 Cor 8:6
2. Not according to 1 Cor 8:6 and Deut 10:17
3. Yes it can…especially the title 'The First and the Last,' this title is the meaning of YHWH, eternal existence.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,14:00) Please answer this:
Do you agree that a unity of two members can be made up of one member that is in authority over the other member?
Yes I agree with that.Let's see. The crew of a boat. One captain and many members.
However, God is not a unity of two or more members.
He is one.
For us there is one God the Father.
And the one true God sent his son Jesus Christ into the world.Your echad unity theory is off the wall.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,15:30) The word 'God/god' has different meanings. In the Shema, it doesn't say that YHWH is one God. Is says that YHWH our God is YHWH Echad.
This is where you trip up.
Echad does not mean unity of multiple things. It simply means one as in number.
I think I demonstrated to you in our debate that you can have one group and that the word still means one in number because it is a single group.Let's look at Numbers 13:23
And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one (echad) cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff.One what? One grape? No. One/single cluster of grapes.
That means 1 cluster of grapes, not a unity of grapes.Just because a cluster of grapes has many grapes does not make the word echad mean unity of things. It just means 1.
If you take the human body for example, you could say “one human body”. But you could argue that each body is made up of living cells and inside the body and on the body there are many life forms existing that make up your body. And that would certainly be true. But the reference “one human body” is not implying a unity of living cells combined to make a body even though that may be a true scientific statement. No what it means is there is one single human body in the context that you could say that there were 2 human bodies.
One as in the number one. Did you not know that you can have 1 fish and 1 school of fish. It still means the number 1 no matter how you slice it.
t8 and Mike,
Quote How many persons that have been called 'the theos' anywhere in the Bible…:
1. do we need to know, believe in, and serve, in order to gain eternal life?
2. were involved in creating all things in heaven and on earth?
3. are mentioned in our prayers?
4. are we to believe in the power of their name?
5. are to receive all honor, and glory and praise for ever and ever?
6. sit together on the Father's throne.
Mike answered two…thank you Mike! t8 is dragging his feet, thinking that he is in a trap of some sort.The answers to these questions is the same answer. Two 'the theos.' So I do not know how you guys can say that there is no possible unity within YHWH.
T8 and Mike,
Please answer this question:
Do you agree that the two who are called 'the theos' in scriptures and are together involved in creation, salvation of all mankind, sit together on one throne, whose name has power to heal, who receive all praise honor, glory AND dominion FOREVER and EVER, are one according to Jesus?I am sure I answered the first question.
Might have been here or in our debate, but I have you the answer.I would like to say that the question is a bit misleading.
Because theos needs to be used in its correct context.
You can't just use it in the same sentence to mean the same thing as THE God. I have explained this to you a number of times now, albeit not in reference to this particular question.
Scripture says that the judges were theos. So if I asked you a question about God and men being theos, and the thrust of my argument was to convince you that men are God too, then you would be worried about the question because it could well be a loaded question.
e.g., How many who are called theos are also called light? Well we know God is light. Jesus is the light of the world. Jesus said we are the light of the world and men have been called theos. Angels are called theos and are called angels of light.
So obviously that question does not equal 2. But you could frame a question to make it 2 or any desired number.
e.g., how many are called 'the light of the world'? The answer is Jesus and his disciples. If I then turned around and said that we were Jesus based on that. then obviously that would be a misuse of the question or perhaps a loaded question.What does this ultimately prove. It proves that if you ask a question that contains certain criteria, you force it to match the answer you are looking for. That in itself is not bad (I think) but if you then tie that answer to a philosophy you happen to hold to, it doesn't really provide any real proof because all you are doing is stacking the deck and expecting us to be surprised when certain cards come up that you predicted.
t8-
Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
Where have men been called theos?
Where are angels called theos?t8-
Quote What does this ultimately prove. It proves that if you ask a question that contains certain criteria, you force it to match the answer you are looking for. That in itself is not bad (I think) but if you then tie that answer to a philosophy you happen to hold to, it doesn't really provide any real proof because all you are doing is stacking the deck and expecting us to be surprised when certain cards come up that you predicted. Is this your way of saying that there are two that are called 'the theos' that are one?
You say context matters here. Not if being theos is who one is and not a role that one plays for a time. Whenever you read about Jesus, you should understand that He is 'the theos' in scripture. He doesn't stop being 'the theos' because He is called a lamb, or a servant, or an angel, or a man. He is 'the theos' in all those roles.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2012,20:01) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2012,11:42) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,21:00) The game I like to play is to give direct answers to questions posed to me, which I've done several times tonight by the way.
Do you believe this to be true.“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
Yes or No.
For Is. The one who claims to give direct answers to questions posed to him.Please answer this.
My direct answer is….Read the second post down for my take on this verse. Again, we've been here before, you guys need some new material.
If you exegete this verse carefully it throws up significant problems for the henotheist – “eternal life” is predicated on “knowing” the Father and THE SON?? So according to your theology you have to “know” a big God and a little god to have eternal life?! Kindly explain…..
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,19:30) In the Shema, it doesn't say that YHWH is one God. Is says that YHWH our God is YHWH Echad.
And what about when Jesus quotes those words?Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Is there some “secret echad meaning” when Jesus says those words?
Moses was telling the Israelites that they as a nation have but ONE God, YHWH. It is the same thing Jesus was saying in 12:29.
Because of your own wishes, you want to read something else into the word “one”, but there is no way from the words of Deuteronomy 6:4 that you can HONESTLY come to your conclusion.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,19:36) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Kathi, you and I agree that “The Father” is the God of Jesus. Now, if we and Jesus have the same God, as your Lord said we do, who is our God? But we both don't agree that Jesus' God is His creator, so we do not agree on who is the God of Jesus.
Okay Kathi,Just for argument's sake, let's assume that Jesus was always existent within his Father, and that he wasn't created.
NOW who do you suppose Jesus meant by the words “my God” in John 20:17? Do you suppose he STILL meant “The Father”?
If so, then YOUR God is ALSO “The Father”, because Jesus said our God was his God, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,19:42) Where doe it say that some of us will also be one 'with' them?
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.It seems to me that “being one” means Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus. And his PRAYER to HIS OWN GOD is that we ALSO be in them, making us one with them.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2012,19:49) Mike,
you asked:Quote
Kathi,
1. Is it possible that the Father, BY HIMSELF, is the God of gods and Lord of lords?2. Is it possible that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, who is ALSO called by the title “Lord of lords”?
3. Does the fact that the Father and the Son share a title automatically combine them together in some compound unity echad Godhead thing?
(Please answer the above questions DIRECTLY and HONESTLY.)
1. Not according to 1 Cor 8:6
2. Not according to 1 Cor 8:6 and Deut 10:17
3. Yes it can…especially the title 'The First and the Last,' this title is the meaning of YHWH, eternal existence.
1. Please explain how God making Jesus our Lord prohibits Deuteronomy 10:17 from calling the Father ALONE “the God of gods and Lord of lords”. Kathi, do you contest that the Father is a Lord over other lords?2. There is nothing in either of those scriptures that prohibits Jesus from being a Lord over other lords while his own God is a DIFFERENT Lord over other lords.
3. The words “it can” are very telling, Kathi. Read my question #3 again, and pay close attention to the word “AUTOMATICALLY”. Then try your answer again, please.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,05:38) T8 and Mike,
Please answer this question:
Do you agree that the two who are called 'the theos' in scriptures and are together involved in creation, salvation of all mankind, sit together on one throne, whose name has power to heal, who receive all praise honor, glory AND dominion FOREVER and EVER, are one according to Jesus?
Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”It's funny you mention sitting on the throne and the praise and honor thing, when the above scripture lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One sitting on the throne when it mentions him having that praise and honor.
The answer to your question is “YES”. But as t8 pointed out, anyone can do the same thing with any preferred criteria. I might work one out for Moses, just to show you how easy it is to try and FORCE the scriptures to teach what you WANT them to teach.
Tell me how all the things you listed make null and void the fact that we have but ONE God, and that God is not only OUR God, but also JESUS' God.
Tell me how those things change the fact that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son, Servant, Mediator, Priest, Prophet, and Sacrificial Lamb OF God Almighty.
Tell me how those things change the words, “God sent me into the world” to “The Father part of the echad unity Godhead thingy sent me into the world”.
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