The Trinity Doctrine

[Lightenup]

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So what makes you think the same exact scenario in the case of God and HIS Son would result in some compound being?

I have never said compound 'being'…I have said compound unity or simply 'unity' which is meant to mean the same thing as compound unity but I have never said 'compound being.'

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Or do you think maybe you're just reading a whole lot into that simple word “one”, because you WANT that simple little word to be teaching that Jesus is God along with his own God?

Wouldn't the person that directly created everything in the heaven and the earth be God? If the person that indirectly created everything in heaven and earth is God (the Father), why wouldn't the person that directly created everything (the Son) be God also and since YHWH alone created everything in heaven and earth and YHWH is echad and is the God of gods and the Lord of lords and there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords…well, it all makes sense for the two to be the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity?

You admitted that we need two of the 'the theos' mentioned in scripture for God sized tasks so why are you giving me a hard time that I say Jesus is God along with his own God? Why couldn't that be a theos unity of two who are called 'the theos?' Since you admit that Jesus is called 'the theos' and the Father is called 'the theos' and you need both of them for salvation, creation, prayer, and both get all praise, honor, glory and dominion for ever and ever…doesn't that sound like a God kind of unity?

Was the Son and the Father ONE before creation, Mike?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2012,08:12)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 11 2012,08:50) In what sense is He greater? Ask Jesus. He said it and I choose to believe him. And his God is our God. Good enough for me.

So you don't know?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2012,10:04)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 11 2012,20:48) Hi Mike, You have not proven anything until you prove it to someone else. What I proved is that it is scriptural that we have the very same God Jesus has. If Jesus' God isn't a combination of Father and Son, then our God isn't a combination of Father and Son. People are free to believe what they want, but my claim is aligned with the scriptures, and therefore it has been proven as far as I'm concerned.  So even if you chose to ignore John 20:17, it wouldn't have any bearing on the fact that I scripturally proved my case.

Hi Mike,

You're preaching to the choir as they say; The Trinity idea
was only a way of extracting Lucifer from the Godhead.    …(Link)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Reason for edit: To add link to thread.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2012,13:47)

Now tell me how many we need to believe IN, not just believe for eternal life. So you think that you have to believe in Jesus to gain eternal life or just believe Jesus?

We need to believe in God. And to believe in God is to believe in the one who he has sent.

If we have not God, then we have not his son and if we have not the son, then we have not God.

So God and his son equals two.

So let's here your response now. Please lay the trap now.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 13 2012,19:10)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2012,08:12) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 11 2012,08:50) In what sense is He greater? Ask Jesus. He said it and I choose to believe him. And his God is our God. Good enough for me. So you don't know?

Whether I know or not is irrelevant. Jesus said it about himself so who is anyone to argue against him.

Now I could compile a list of reasons that make the Father greater. I could be here all day, so I will give you a taster.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2012,13:55)

The problem with this Mike, is YHWH is not just God but God and Lord. You just want YHWH to be God but not Lord apparently.

LU, you appear confused.

God made Jesus Lord.

So God is greater than Lord.

Yes technically speaking God is the Lord of Jesus, but God made Jesus Lord over all, except God of course.

The title of Lord that God gave to Jesus is not to be taken as Lord God. Just at Joseph was given power over all the Pharaohs kingdom, but not technically over the Pharaoh.

The fact that the Father is God places him above all, even the son.

How else do you expect to explain this.

Using your understanding, how do you explain that one has the highest power, and he gives that power to another to have power over all that is his.

Is not God and Lord good enough. If not, then what words should scripture use to describe this. Please answer this.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2012,11:42)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,21:00) The game I like to play is to give direct answers to questions posed to me, which I've done several times tonight by the way. Do you believe this to be true. “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Yes or No.

For Is. The one who claims to give direct answers to questions posed to him.

Please answer this.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2012,03:33)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2012,13:47) Now tell me how many we need to believe IN, not just believe for eternal life. So you think that you have to believe in Jesus to gain eternal life or just believe Jesus? We need to believe in God. And to believe in God is to believe in the one who he has sent. If we have not God, then we have not his son and if we have not the son, then we have not God. So God and his son equals two. So let's here your response now. Please lay the trap now.

t8,
Good that you also believe in two who are called 'the theos' for your eternal salvation.

When did God the Father make the Son 'Lord?'

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Please lay the trap now.

No reason to be paranoid sorting out the truth, t8.

[Lightenup]

t8,

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Yes technically speaking God is the Lord of Jesus, but God made Jesus Lord over all, except God of course.

Jesus is the one Lord according to Paul in the context of the Father as the one God. Does Jesus ever call the Father, the only Lord?

[Proclaimer]

Don't know LU. Either way it makes no difference to the truth that for me, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

People who disagree with Paul's teaching resort to confusion and a play on words with YHWH/LORD, Lord/kurious, God/god,theos/elohim.

But scripture uses nearly all these words to describe the Father, Son, Angels, Judges, idols, Satan, and false gods.

No matter how you slice it, the Father is the true God and he sent Jesus Christ his son. The same whom he made Lord.

And you can't argue with me unless you want to argue against scripture because I simply am repeating scripture. This is why I am confident with my view. I do not add anything to what I read. I simply read it in context and have no agenda or axe to grind.

So long as I am true, you can't trip me up. But go right ahead and continue trying.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,06:41)

t8, Good that you also believe in two who are called 'the theos' for your eternal salvation.

I believe that of those who are legitimately called theos, the Father and the Son are crucial to my salvation. Whereas other legitimate theos/elohim (angels and judges) are not necessarily crucial to my salvation, but there ministries are nothing to ignore either.

Believing that we need the Father and the Son doesn't disprove that eternal life is to know God and the one whom God sent. It proves this verse.

It is imperative to believe the work of God, which is to believe in the one he has sent. After all, if we believe in God, then we believe in what he does, what he says, and who he sends. And God has given us eternal life in the one whom he has sent. This is the work of God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2012,20:50)

………YHWH is echad and is the God of gods and the Lord of lords and there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords…well, it all makes sense for the two to be the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity?

So then you ARE making that one little word “echad” into a far-fetched doctrine because you WANT Jesus to be God Almighty along with his Father.

Kathi,
1.  Is it possible that the Father, BY HIMSELF, is the God of gods and Lord of lords?  

2.  Is it possible that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God Almighty, who is ALSO called by the title “Lord of lords”?  

3.  Does the fact that the Father and the Son share a title automatically combine them together in some compound unity echad Godhead thing?

(Please answer the above questions DIRECTLY and HONESTLY.)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2012,20:50)

I have never said compound 'being'…I have said compound unity or simply 'unity' which is meant to mean the same thing as compound unity but I have never said 'compound being.'

Okay.  My apologies.  Take my “President and his son” scenario from the last post, and change the word “being” to “compound unity echad President-head”.  You'll see that my point remains the same.  (In fact you already know that, which is why you chose to divert from the meat of my point, and focus on my mis-application of the word “being”.)

Kathi, the meat of the point, as you well know, is that the Hebrew word “echad” AND the English word “one” can be used to refer to unities of more than one entity.  But what is the TYPICAL meaning of the following:

Obama, your President, is ONE.

A.  He is a SINGULARITY?
B.  He is a compound unity of MORE THAN ONE?

You'll agree the correct answer is “A”, right?  So why would you not assume the TYPICAL conclusion when it comes to our God YHWH, who is not only said to be “ONE”, but is also described OVER 7000 TIMES in scripture with SINGULAR pronouns?

You are bucking against all odds, Kathi.  You pick and choose a scripture here and a scripture there that you can TWIST into saying what you WANT it to say.  It's like Exodus 7:17.  Thank God that scripture was said about MOSES, and not JESUS, or it would be your #1 proof text to prove that Jesus IS his own God, Jehovah.

But you can see from 7:17 how a person who WANTED Moses to be YHWH could TWIST that into some kind of scriptural PROOF of their claim, right?  I see YOU GUYS doing that very same thing all day long when it comes to Jesus.  You find a couple of oddly worded scriptures that quickly become your proof texts – all while ignoring the THOUSANDS of other scriptures that go AGAINST your claims.

Kathi, the God of Jesus is the God of us.  If Jesus' God is not a compound unity echad thingy, then neither is our God.

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2012,19:33)

So let's here your response now. Please lay the trap now.

Hi T8,

You must REALLY be in a Good mood,
because you are cracking a lot of jokes.  
You got me laughing on almost every post!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Proclaimer]

Cheers Ed J.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2012,22:49)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2012,13:55) The problem with this Mike, is YHWH is not just God but God and Lord. You just want YHWH to be God but not Lord apparently. LU, you appear confused. God made Jesus Lord. So God is greater than Lord. Yes technically speaking God is the Lord of Jesus, but God made Jesus Lord over all, except God of course. The title of Lord that God gave to Jesus is not to be taken as Lord God. Just at Joseph was given power over all the Pharaohs kingdom, but not technically over the Pharaoh. The fact that the Father is God places him above all, even the son. How else do you expect to explain this. Using your understanding, how do you explain that one has the highest power, and he gives that power to another to have power over all that is his. Is not God and Lord good enough. If not, then what words should scripture use to describe this. Please answer this.

Would appreciate an answer to the bolded question.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 14 2012,05:44)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2012,22:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2012,13:55) The problem with this Mike, is YHWH is not just God but God and Lord. You just want YHWH to be God but not Lord apparently. LU, you appear confused. God made Jesus Lord. So God is greater than Lord. Yes technically speaking God is the Lord of Jesus, but God made Jesus Lord over all, except God of course. The title of Lord that God gave to Jesus is not to be taken as Lord God. Just at Joseph was given power over all the Pharaohs kingdom, but not technically over the Pharaoh. The fact that the Father is God places him above all, even the son. How else do you expect to explain this. Using your understanding, how do you explain that one has the highest power, and he gives that power to another to have power over all that is his. Is not God and Lord good enough. If not, then what words should scripture use to describe this. Please answer this. Would appreciate an answer to the bolded question.

t8.
God and Lord are perfectly good enough and realizing that both are called God, the theos, and are God is important. The Son who is called 'the theos' in scripture and was such in the beginning with the Father, was made Lord when the Son was used to directly create all things in heaven and on earth which were made for Him, the Son. The Son is the Lord of all. Also, YHWH is often referred to as Lord in the OT and NT.

Nothing you have said disproves the claim that the Father and Son are both part of the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity. Certainly one can be greater in authority than the other member and still be part of a unity.

Please answer this:
Do you agree that a unity of two members can be made up of one member that is in authority over the other member?

If so, you can remind me over and over till you are blue in the face that the Father is greater than the Son but that doesn't disprove that they are part of the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity. The funny thing is that I have never disagreed with the fact that the Father is greater in authority over the Son.  

[Lightenup]

Mike,

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So then you ARE making that one little word “echad” into a far-fetched doctrine because you WANT Jesus to be God Almighty along with his Father.

I want truth to prevail. The doctrine of the Father and Son being members of a compound unity is not far-fetched at all. Jesus directly makes that claim that He and the Father are one. It seems obvious that they have always been 'one' even before creation.

Mike, please answer this:
Can you show me that they weren't 'one' in the OT or before creation?

If not, then you are making the far fetched doctrine that they are not one in the OT.

[Lightenup]

Mike,

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Obama, your President, is ONE.

Don't you see that this would be ridiculous to say about one singular person? Hey everyone Obama is one person…spread the word.

Now if I said this:
Israel is one.
Does that make you think of Jacob being one person or the nation called 'Israel' is unified or united in some manner?

[Lightenup]

Mike,

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You'll agree the correct answer is “A”, right? So why would you not assume the TYPICAL conclusion when it comes to our God YHWH, who is not only said to be “ONE”, but is also described OVER 7000 TIMES in scripture with SINGULAR pronouns?

Yes, A would be the answer to a question that would seem ridiculous and never actually wondered about or mentioned.

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but is also described OVER 7000 TIMES in scripture with SINGULAR pronouns

Unities normally are described with singular pronouns. You know better than to try to pull that on me. Even in the Shema, Israel has a singular verb 'hear' to go with it.

[Lightenup]

Mike,

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Kathi, the God of Jesus is the God of us. If Jesus' God is not a compound unity echad thingy, then neither is our God.

I told you that the God of Jesus was His Father, not His creator so the God of Jesus is not your God because you believe that the God of Jesus is His creator, not His literal Father.

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