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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:31) No, no, no, Paul. This is the game YOU like to play. I'm not into the “inferior in nature” stuff, for scripture doesn't speak anything about it. (Btw, I believe Jesus is EQUALLY a spirit being, just like his God and Father who created him as the first of His works……… and just like the many other spirit sons of God – the exception being that Jesus was the first to be brought forth into existence. So see? Your “nature” point wouldn't work with me anyway.) Paul, I won't get into a debate about fancy words and imagined philosophies. I will state the obvious:
1. Is there only ONE Almighty God? YES, for scripture highly attests such.
2. Does that ONE Almighty God have a Son named Jesus? YES, also scriptural.
Conclusion: Unless Jesus has a son named Jesus, he can't possibly be that ONE Almighty God.
3. Can Jesus logically be the very God he is the Son of? NO.
4. Is the God of Jesus also the God of us? Scripturally, YES. So unless the God of Jesus is a combo of the Father and the Son (making Jesus his own God), then OUR God isn't a combo of the Father and the Son.
See Paul? These things are just simple, down to earth scriptural facts – mixed with a little bit of God-given common sense. What more do we need? Fancy words to try to mislead us into believing things that go against the above things?
That's all you, dude. I'll take no part in it.
Paul, my God is also your God and the disciples God and Jesus' God. He is the ONE Almighty God, and He is the God of all of us, including His holy servant Jesus Christ.
The game I like to play is to give direct answers to questions posed to me, which I've done several times tonight by the way, and ask a few in return. Though, you haven't even attempted to answer any of mine with a direct answer I note.Ontology is at the core of the argument you've put up, and you MUST know this. If you're not not trying to prove Yeshua is a lower being than the Father by positing it, then exactly what is the point you're driving at? So the burden is on you to corroborate the key premises of your argument. Does Yeshua having the Father as His God mean that he has a disparite nature? – prove it scriptually. When you've done this you'll have a platform to work from.
You need to do a little homework here Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:33) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,22:21) My God is the Father. I would never say otherwise.
So your God is NOT the trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit?
As I've said several times – my God is YHWH.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:53) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,15:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,20:08) t8,
Define spirit in this context “God is spirit.”
Then define spirit in this context, “He gives His spirit to beings and that spirit, if not remaining, returns to God.”
I agree. You can't just believe that the word spirit is always used the same way. The word translated spirit has a number of meanings, although, they all share a common theme.
Is this not good enough?Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!Numbers 16:22
“May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this communityThe Father is the father of our spirits.
YHWH is the God of the spirits of mankind.Does this need further explanation?
Hi T8,Good post.
But God's name is YHVH;
The Hebrew language has no “W” sound. …(Link)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,18:04) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:58) david. Angels are spirits and we have spirits.
Angels have different bodies to us, but we will become like the angels eventually.The spirit of man comes from God who we know is a spirit.
What is the point of clarifying this in terms of the topic?
Are you suggesting that we have spirits (like angels) snide of us?
Yes all living things have the spirit of God inside them.
His spirit is inside our soul.That spirit is given by God and the spirit returns to God if not being used by another.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,17:42) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:18) Good question Mike. And either way she answers, she is caught in her own craftiness. If she answers yes, then she admits that God is the Father like us.
If she answers no, then she is saying that she doesn't have God.Hopefully she answers yes.
What do you mean by “God is the Father like us”
That God is the Father which is what US (we) believe.And why US?
Because for US there is one God the Father. While for Binitarians and Trinitarians there is one God the Father, God the Son, and maybe God the Spirit.
We are the US in Paul's text. We are the ones who believe that there is one God, the Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,17:46) The Godhead of Kathi is the God of Jesus and Jesus…together with their Spirit…the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity. I have made this clear on many occasions and in my signature. Your God however, is not the God of Jesus. The God of Jesus was His Father, not His creator.
There you go babbling again.Our God is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and us too.
Its simply to understand. No need to make it complicated and then try to address a supposed flaw created by your very own complication.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:16)
There are at least 8 different scriptures that teach us Jesus is a creation of his God;
Hi Mike,There isn't any, only your way of interpreting the text suggests that there is.
Would you like to compare notes on them all? …(One by one of course)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,18:02) Mike – instead of just throwing out baseless assertions DEFINE YOUR TERMS. Prove to us that it logically follows that since Yeshua has His Father as His God He is inferior in His nature
I think you are adding in stuff here.Jesus said that his Father was greater than him.
No need to get into an ontological argument when you can just take Jesus at his word.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,18:00) Does Yeshua having the Father as His God mean that he has a disparite nature? – prove it scriptually.
disparite nature? …what is that?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,21:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,15:33) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,22:21) My God is the Father. I would never say otherwise.
So your God is NOT the trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit?
As I've said several times – my God is YHWH.
Is the Father exclusively YHWH according to you?
Or does the Tetragrammaton's definition also include other persons?Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,03:13) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,17:46) The Godhead of Kathi is the God of Jesus and Jesus…together with their Spirit…the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity. I have made this clear on many occasions and in my signature. Your God however, is not the God of Jesus. The God of Jesus was His Father, not His creator.
There you go babbling again.Our God is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and us too.
Its simply to understand. No need to make it complicated and then try to address a supposed flaw created by your very own complication.
If you don't have the theos who is Jesus, you don't have the theos who can be your Father.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,23:24) Mike and t8, Quote Even being equal to something infers that you are not that thing you are equal. We are not saying that both are 'A' but that there is 'A' + 'B' +' C' = 'A,B,C' unity. We understand that YHWH is a unity of the Father, Son together with their Holy Spirit and you do not accept that. This is the difference.
How many persons that have been called 'the theos' anywhere in the Bible…:
1. do we need to know, believe in, and serve, in order to gain eternal life?
2. were involved in creating all things in heaven and on earth?
3. are mentioned in our prayers?
4. are we to believe in the power of their name?
5. are to receive all honor, and glory and praise for ever and ever?
6. sit together on the Father's throne.
Please answer all these questions, thanks!
Please answer these questions t8 and Mike, thanks!Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,19:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,18:02) Mike – instead of just throwing out baseless assertions DEFINE YOUR TERMS. Prove to us that it logically follows that since Yeshua has His Father as His God He is inferior in His nature
I think you are adding in stuff here.Jesus said that his Father was greater than him.
No need to get into an ontological argument when you can just take Jesus at his word.
In what sense is He greater?Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2012,19:21) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,18:00) Does Yeshua having the Father as His God mean that he has a disparite nature? – prove it scriptually.
disparite nature? …what is that?
disparate (spelling corrected):Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,23:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,23:24) Mike and t8, Quote Even being equal to something infers that you are not that thing you are equal. We are not saying that both are 'A' but that there is 'A' + 'B' +' C' = 'A,B,C' unity. We understand that YHWH is a unity of the Father, Son together with their Holy Spirit and you do not accept that. This is the difference.
How many persons that have been called 'the theos' anywhere in the Bible…:
1. do we need to know, believe in, and serve, in order to gain eternal life?
2. were involved in creating all things in heaven and on earth?
3. are mentioned in our prayers?
4. are we to believe in the power of their name?
5. are to receive all honor, and glory and praise for ever and ever?
6. sit together on the Father's throne.
Please answer all these questions, thanks!
Please answer these questions t8 and Mike, thanks!
Agree…let's see some answers fellas.My answer to all 6 questions is “TWO theos”. That is also Kathi's answer.
But what is YOUR answer to those questions, Paul?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2012,06:20) My answer to all 6 questions is “TWO theos”. That is also Kathi's answer. But what is YOUR answer to those questions, Paul?
Interesting.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,01:00) Ontology is at the core of the argument you've put up, and you MUST know this. If you're not not trying to prove Yeshua is a lower being than the Father by positing it, then exactly what is the point you're driving at? So the burden is on you to corroborate the key premises of your argument.
The scriptures don't use the word “ontology”, and therefore there is no need for me to discuss such a thing.The point I drove (past tense) at was that WE ALL have the same exact God that Jesus has. If his God is “the Father”, as we all agree, then OUR God is also the Father.
And I've corroborated my claims with scriptures like John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12.
There is nothing more for me to discuss on this matter, Paul. You and I have already agreed that Jesus' God is the Father, and therefore OUR God is the Father. (See how that truth matches perfectly with Paul's words in 1 Cor 8:6?)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 11 2012,06:27) The scriptures don't use the word “ontology”, and therefore there is no need for me to discuss such a thing.
Okay Mike, every time you use a word in your posts that is not scriptual I'm going to call you on it.
Whether or not the word is used is irrelevant. If the concept is referenced or it's an underpinning premise for an argument, it's fair game.
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