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Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!Numbers 16:22
“May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this communityHebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Does Jesus have a spirit too?
I agree, God gave humans their spirit. There is no mention of our spirits being eternal.
Jesus has a spirit, yes.
Well if God is a spirit and is eternal and he gives HIS spirit to beings and that spirit if not remaining returns to God who is eternal, then how is that spirit that he gives is temporary in nature.
Does God have a temporary bucket of spirit that he gives out and then destroys it once it is used?
And yes Jesus has a spirit as you say and scripture says that the Father is the father of spirits and he is Jesus father just as he is the father of all who cry our Abba Father.
t8,
Define spirit in this context “God is spirit.”
Then define spirit in this context, “He gives His spirit to beings and that spirit, if not remaining, returns to God.”t8,
Quote Do you understand that. I mean really Kathi. We are genuinely interested in the truth. Do you honestly think that at some point we are going to say, “wow you are right” given your evidence to date.
I have shown you many reasons…for instance:
Jesus is the First and the Last.
The Word of YHWH was equal to YHWH in the minds of the OT Jews.
Two powers of YHWH was a common understanding among the first century Jews.
Jesus is the wisdom and power of God and those attributes are eternal.
Jesus is the exact nature of God which is eternal.
YHWH is the Lord of lords, YHWH is eternal, Jesus is the Lord of lords.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,20:33) Like I said, Jesus did not believe in a God that created Him like you two. His God was His Father.
What? Jesus is the one who plainly said he was the beginning of the creation by God.Where is your SCRIPTURAL support that “Jesus did not believe in a God that created Him”?
Kathi, I believe you are stumped on this one. First, Jesus said “WE worship what WE know” – including HIMSELF among those who worship Jehovah.
Then, Jesus point blank said that our God was also HIS God. You can't run away from that one, Kathi.
Whoever the God was that Jesus was calling “my God” is ALSO the same God that WE have.
And you have correctly identified that God as “YHWH the Father”. So, if YHWH the Father is the God of Jesus, then according to the words of your very own Lord of lords, YHWH the Father is ALSO the God of US.
Agreed?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2012,21:08) Proverbs 8:22
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;He was brought forth.
Proverbs 8:22 NRSV ©
The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.NET ©
The Lord created 1 me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.Footnote #1 in the NET translation says:
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.………..the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.”
Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”……….
22 “The Lord created me as the first of his works……………
23 I was fashioned from eternity…………
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth……….
See how those verses all argue for a translation of “create”? And t8, don't forget that one who is begotten is also a creation. There is no known exception to that rule, despite the fact that you and Kathi would like to MAKE an exception in the case of Jesus.
If Jesus was begotten by God, then he is something that his God CREATED.
From Dictionary.com……….
Definition: generate, bring into beingSynonyms:
bear, beget , bring about, bring forth, cause, create, deliver, engender, give birth to, give rise to, hatch, impregnate, induce, make, multiply, originate, procreate, produce, progenerate, propagate, reproduce
You'll notice that the bolded words are all used of Jesus in the scriptures.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,20:08) t8,
Define spirit in this context “God is spirit.”
Then define spirit in this context, “He gives His spirit to beings and that spirit, if not remaining, returns to God.”
I agree. You can't just believe that the word spirit is always used the same way. The word translated spirit has a number of meanings, although, they all share a common theme.David,
That won't change t8's point that if the spirit that animates man comes FROM God, and returns TO God upon our death, then it would seem this spirit is eternal, like the God it seems to be a part of.
Don't you think? Are there any spirits that aren't eternal? Do spirits die of old age?
Except, I don't think of the spirit that god gives to people like that. I think of it like energy. Electricity is an idea that people can visualize. When the power company takes back their power, where does it to? Nowhere really. When the spirit is removed from a person, they die. When electricity is taken away from a fan, it stops whirling around. Where does the electricity to? It's true, it's spoken of as “returning” to the true God. But, when a house is sold, or bought back, the property is said to “return” to the owner, despite going nowhere physically.
I am just saying that the spirit that a mates man isn't the same as the spirits in heaven (angels). It's not as if we have angels inside of us. Yes, same word is used. That's unfortunate and co fusing for some.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,15:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,20:08) t8,
Define spirit in this context “God is spirit.”
Then define spirit in this context, “He gives His spirit to beings and that spirit, if not remaining, returns to God.”
I agree. You can't just believe that the word spirit is always used the same way. The word translated spirit has a number of meanings, although, they all share a common theme.
Is this not good enough?Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!Numbers 16:22
“May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this communityThe Father is the father of our spirits.
YHWH is the God of the spirits of mankind.Does this need further explanation?
david. Angels are spirits and we have spirits.
Angels have different bodies to us, but we will become like the angels eventually.The spirit of man comes from God who we know is a spirit.
What is the point of clarifying this in terms of the topic?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,20:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,20:33) Like I said, Jesus did not believe in a God that created Him like you two. His God was His Father.
What? Jesus is the one who plainly said he was the beginning of the creation by God.Where is your SCRIPTURAL support that “Jesus did not believe in a God that created Him”?
Kathi, I believe you are stumped on this one. First, Jesus said “WE worship what WE know” – including HIMSELF among those who worship Jehovah.
Then, Jesus point blank said that our God was also HIS God. You can't run away from that one, Kathi.
Whoever the God was that Jesus was calling “my God” is ALSO the same God that WE have.
And you have correctly identified that God as “YHWH the Father”. So, if YHWH the Father is the God of Jesus, then according to the words of your very own Lord of lords, YHWH the Father is ALSO the God of US.
Agreed?
Jesus never called God 'His creator' did he?Jesus worshiped God. He was a man, of course He worshiped God like men were supposed to…He was lower than the angels afterall. In His divinity, He was and is the radiance of the Father's glory. In His humanity and divinity He always brings glory to the Father. The Father also glorifies the Son.
The Jews knew what they worshiped…the God of gods and the Lord of lords…the two powers of YHWH.
I certainly agree that the God of gods is the God of me as well as the Lord of lords…the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
As for you, well, if you don't have the only begotten God, then you don't have the unbegotten God either. That is two, not one. In fact I seem to remember you admitting that we need two theos to know and believe in and to serve for our salvation. But you deny one of them…that is so sad.
Alright, I will knock off a few easy ones now.
Quote The Word of YHWH was equal to YHWH in the minds of the OT Jews.
Even being equal to something infers that you are not that thing you are equal. e.g., 2+3 = 4+1. Notice how 2&3 are actually not 4&1 even though they are equal. And you don't say that 3 is equal to 3 because that is irrelevant. Hence even if the Word was equal to YHWH in some way, then that would mean that the Word was not YHWH given your thinking here.Quote Two powers of YHWH was a common understanding among the first century Jews.
So says a video you watched. God is obviously the God of all powers. We already know that after God, that Jesus is the power of God. But other beings have power too. Angels have immense power. This point of yours is irrelevant.Quote Jesus is the wisdom and power of God and those attributes are eternal.
God is eternal and has attributes. God is love. If I love am I eternal. If I am wise am I eternal. Or is it that I want to be like God and display or reflect his attributes.Quote Jesus is the exact nature of God which is eternal.
We can partake in divine nature. So obviously sharing in that nature does not equate with being eternal like God.Obviously God had to do a first work. And obviously out of all beings in existence, (besides God) there would have to be someone who was the first. And given the special nature of being a firstborn, that being would have to be special among all creation. In fact perhaps that being would be more like God than any other since there was nothing else that this being came from besides God. Maybe even an exact image of God. I wonder who that is? Could it be the firstborn of all creation I wonder?
Good question Mike. And either way she answers, she is caught in her own craftiness.
If she answers yes, then she admits that God is the Father like us.
If she answers no, then she is saying that she doesn't have God.Hopefully she answers yes.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:18) Good question Mike. And either way she answers, she is caught in her own craftiness. If she answers yes, then she admits that God is the Father like us.
If she answers no, then she is saying that she doesn't have God.Hopefully she answers yes.
What do you mean by “God is the Father like us”
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