- This topic has 18,300 replies, 268 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,14:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,06:05) The YHWH echad existed before eternity and wasn't the creator or redeemer before creation either.
Ah, but the fact that God MADE the universe means the universe wasn't eternally existing, right?Likewise, the fact that God MADE Jesus Lord means that Jesus wasn't eternally existing as Lord.
Good point again Mike.Sometimes the wise of this world are caught in their own craftiness.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,06:00) However, Mike and t8 do not have the same God because t8's God did not create Jesus and Mike's God did create Jesus.
Kathi, every living thing that has ever existed has the same God. I might think God has a body, and t8 might think He doesn't…….. but it is the same God we are thinking about.A devil worshiper might not want to acknowledge the existence of Jehovah God Almighty, but nevertheless, the same God who created you created that devil worshiper too. He is the Most High God of heaven and earth, regardless of the different ways people understand him.
I can tell you that the God of Jesus is also the God of me, t8 and you – no matter how differently we might understand that God. There is only one, after all. And He is the God of EVERYONE- including His holy servant Jesus, the Christ of God.
Now, Jesus told Mary to tell his disciples that he was going to ascend to his God and their God. There is no denying that the God of Jesus is the very same God of the disciples – for Jesus said so in no uncertain terms.
And it doesn't even matter if you THINK that you have a different God than me and t8, because the SCRIPTURAL FACT of the matter is that all three of us have the same exact God that Jesus has. Do you understand that?
So, the fact that you CLAIM your God is a compound unity of Jesus and the Father really doesn't change the SCRIPTURAL facts. In reality, you have the same exact God that Jesus has – whether or not you care to accept that reality.
You can worship that God AND His holy servant Jesus as some “Echad Godhead” if you want, but what you do will never change the fact that the One who is REALLY your God is the same One who is Jesus' God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,02:00) That is amusing that in those last two posts t8 'good points' Mike but then totally disagrees with what he posted, as seen in his last statement.
Unless Mike was saying that himself, t8 and Jesus have the same God. I can't even find the original quote. Where was the original quote, Mike?However, Mike and t8 do not have the same God because t8's God did not create Jesus and Mike's God did create Jesus.
Kathi, Paul of Tarsus, Jesus, myself, and Mike believe that the Father is God of US.You believe that God is God and Jesus and just God by himself. You are not US because you would believe that there is one God the Father and you clearly do not believe that. Might as well admit that to yourself at least.
For us there is one God the Father. Not two, one God the Father and one God the Son like you.
As for the create comment. This is merely a difference in language because I believe as it says that creation is ALL that was made by God and through Jesus Christ/Word. Knowing that Jesus didn't come into existence from God and through himself, instead I believe that he is the only one to have directly come from God because he was the first. This is why we see important terms regarding Jesus such as, “only begotten”.
I am sure that Mike believes the same and that it is just a difference in how we apply the word 'create'.
So we do believe in the same God, the Father. You have 2 beings, we have one.
Yes correct Mike.
There is one God.
Kathi teaches a different God, but that doesn't change the fact that there is one true God.
Yep. And neither Buddha, the Dali Lama, nor the Pope can change that fact, no matter WHO they believe that one God is, and no matter WHAT they believe about that one God.
He is still the God of ALL CREATION…….. including the beginning of the creation by God, the firstborn of all of God's creation, and the one God created as the first of His works – Jesus Christ.
(Rev 3:14, Col 1:15, Prov 8:22)But yes, I agree that Jesus was the first and only thing ever brought forth into existence DIRECTLY by God, and that all other things were subsequently created by God THROUGH Jesus.
The YHWH Echad is Father and Son and they were that forever. The Father didn't say He made Him Son and Lord. He always was a Father and His Son always was a Son.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2012,19:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,02:16) t8,
Can kurios be a placeholder for YHWH in the Greek?
Yes, and so can others be called that.Context is the key as I have always maintained.
Usually it tells you what kurios is being referenced.
Ok, thank you for that. I believe that the Aramaic Bible has a certain word as a placeholder for YHWH which never means angels or men or demons or satan. That word is used in this verse:1 Cor 12:3
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness.So, hence the great benefit for the Aramaic Bible, it makes it clear what 'Lord' in the Greek is YHWH.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,16:33) Like I said, Jesus did not believe in a God that created Him like you two. His God was His Father.
Your not paying attention.If he was begotten of God, then God would rightly be his father.
See it now?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,16:35) The YHWH Echad is Father and Son and they were that forever. The Father didn't say He made Him Son and Lord. He always was a Father and His Son always was a Son.
Yes we know what you teach. But what we are really looking for is proof. Scripture would be good.No amount of repeating your doctrine is going to sway us.
Do you understand that. I mean really Kathi. We are genuinely interested in the truth. Do you honestly think that at some point we are going to say, “wow you are right” given your evidence to date.
You have the same chance of that as me trying to convince you that God is an alien from another planet.
For US there is one God the Father. If you cannot disprove it, you have nothing.
If you truly believed that He was begotten and not created then He wouldn't be theos like everybody else except the Father. He would be theos like the Father.
Proverbs 8:22
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;He was brought forth.
1 John 4:9
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.He was begotten.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Thus Jesus is absolutely unique. He is the prototype son and was directly sourced by God himself. The interesting thing about it, is we too can be born of God and be called the sons of God. And the other interesting fact is that both us and Jesus have come in flesh too.
So we will be like him and have a body like his. He will call us brothers. And his and our God is the Father. He is our father and Jesus father. That is who God is to us. ANd our spirits cry out 'Father'.
I suggest that we be encouraged by this rather than oppose it. It is full of promise and it is true.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,17:04) If you truly believed that He was begotten and not created then He wouldn't be theos like everybody else except the Father. He would be theos like the Father.
Let's see.Jesus came from God.
God didn't come from Jesus.God is invisible.
Jesus is visible.God is a spirit that not even the universe can contain.
Jesus has a body.Jesus is not the Father
The Father is not the son.There you go. That is the difference. Otherwise yes, in most other ways, Jesus is like God. He is the invisible image of God in bodily form. The firstborn. The mediator between God and us.
Yes he is the most like God. But he is not that God.
t8, if you truly believed that He was the only begotten theos, you would not think He was one of many begotten theos. You believe in many begotten theos and Jesus is one of the many.
I believe in only one begotten theos.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 09 2012,16:08) Proverbs 8:22
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;He was brought forth.
1 John 4:9
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.He was begotten.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Thus Jesus is absolutely unique. He is the prototype son and was directly sourced by God himself. The interesting thing about it, is we too can be born of God and be called the sons of God. And the other interesting fact is that both us and Jesus have come in flesh too.
So we will be like him and have a body like his. He will call us brothers. And his and our God is the Father. He is our father and Jesus father. That is who God is to us. ANd our spirits cry out 'Father'.
I suggest that we be encouraged by this rather than oppose it. It is full of promise and it is true.
Good post t8 straight to the point of the matter in clear and simple truth, Amen.
Quote Jesus came from God.
Jesus came OUT from God. He had to be within before He could come out.Quote The interesting thing about it, is we too can be born of God and be called the sons of God. And the other interesting fact is that both us and Jesus have come in flesh too. We can be born again of God and be the adopted sons of God. We can't be like Him before He became flesh.
So, He was born of God and always within God.
We can be born again first by our parents and second by God when He adopts us.
Jesus was never adopted.Also, I never said He was God the Father. Being the only begotten theos who is the exact representation of the nature of the Father makes Him a theos like the Father and a one of a kind Son and a second of a kind theos.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,17:23) Jesus came OUT from God. He had to be within before He could come out.
Where do you think your spirit came from?Mars?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,17:14) t8, if you truly believed that He was the only begotten theos, you would not think He was one of many begotten theos. You believe in many begotten theos and Jesus is one of the many. I believe in only one begotten theos.
Kathi, he existed in the form of God. He came from God directly. We were created. And then we were born.First the physical then the spiritual.
For Christ, he existed in the form of God, which you could say is spirit or spiritual. Partook of flesh, then went back to the glory he had with God.As you can see from this, he is still the prototype son, whereas we are sons. My points remain.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
