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Pierre,
You are not still a project manager if you are retired from being a project manager. You are still and always have been a son of your father though, before you were a project manager, while you were a project manager and even now that you are retired from being a project manager. Being the Son of God was not a 'job' He could possibly retire from, Pierre. The Son of God became the Son of Man also while He remained the Son of God. He is still the Son of God AND the Son of Man who is the Lamb who is seated on the throne of God with God the Father.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,00:32) Pierre,
You are not still a project manager if you are retired from being a project manager. You are still and always have been a son of your father though, before you were a project manager, while you were a project manager and even now that you are retired from being a project manager. Being the Son of God was not a 'job' He could possibly retire from, Pierre. The Son of God became the Son of Man also while He remained the Son of God. He is still the Son of God AND the Son of Man who is the Lamb who is seated on the throne of God with God the Father.
Kathibeing the the Lamb of God ,his a job ,being the son of man was a job as well, being the son of God in heaven this his truly what is real and true ,the first two jobs were the requirment for men to be saved by what he could not be saved of.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,07:53) “Is that a deal?” Are you joking? Are you really needing to 'make a deal' before you will answer my questions?
Yes.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2012,23:34) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) What scripture says Jesus can do EVERYTHING the Father can do? I said that He can do everything that He sees the Father doing.
John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
I don't see the word “everything” in that scripture, Kathi. This is yet another example of how your WISH for Jesus to be God Almighty forces you to teach the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what a scripture is actually teaching.Jesus is showing his humility here, and teaching us that he can do NOTHING by himself. He is teaching us that the things he does are NOT UP TO HIM, but that he “puppets” his God and our God to make sure he's doing things the right way that pleases his God and our God.
Jesus is letting us all know, without mincing words, that he is a faithful SERVANT of his God and our God, and that he does things the way he sees his God doing them – because left to his own devices, he could do NOTHING.
YET YOU TAKE THIS SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS JESUS AS SUBSERVIENT TO HIS GOD AND OUR GOD, AND TRY YOUR BEST TO TURN IT INTO A SCRIPTURE THAT EQUALIZES JESUS AND HIS GOD.
How can faithful Christians, who actually believe what the Bible teaches, even answer to such blatant contradiction? Like I said in another post, if the scripture says “black”, and Kathi insists that it says “white”, what more is there left for me to do?
Kathi, I hope that some day God will remove the blinders that Satan has put on you, and you will be able to see clearly how many times you've BUTCHERED scriptures in an effort to FORCE them to teach the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they really teach.
Until that time, I can only roll my eyes, sigh, and pray for you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2012,23:34) Read your Bible Mike, how many theos are sitting down together in Rev 3:21 on the Father's throne?
Read YOUR Bible, Kathi. This is another example of what I mentioned above. You take a scriptural instance of a servant being GRANTED a “treat” by his God, and try to turn it into a situation where both the servant and his God hold equal shares to the throne. Will those of us who are GRANTED to sit on the King of kings throne with him be EQUAL to him, Kathi? Will it be “OUR” throne just as much as it is Jesus' throne? Or will it be a matter of someone who is very much higher than us TREATING us to a wonderful event?How can you understand the latter, but come up with a totally illogical and unscriptural conclusion to the former?
This is just another example of how you are willing to purposely twist the meanings of the scriptures in an effort to make them come out the way you WANT them to come out. No SENSIBLE person will ever understand God GRANTING his servant a chance to sit on His throne as some kind of EQUALITY – as if they both have equal claim to that throne. (But you sure will, won't you?
)Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2012,23:34) Also, in Rev 22:1, is the word 'throne' written in the singular or the plural?
It is a singular word, as you well know. Can the phrase “the thone of God, and of the Lamb” refer to a throne of EACH of them? Of course you know it can, because we've had this discussion before, right?Mark 8:15 NASB ©
And He was giving orders to them, saying, “Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”We can see from the Greek words that these are two different batches of leaven, right? But look how the NLT translates the same verse:
Mark 8:15 NLT ©
As they were crossing the lake, Jesus warned them, “Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod.”Are the NLT translators only talking about ONE batch of leaven, since they worded it the way they did? Of course not.
The same can be seen here:
Matthew 16 KJV
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
The word “doctrine” above is singular, Kathi. But did the Pharisees and the Sadducees hold the same doctrine? Or did they each have different doctrines, which Paul exploited during one of his trials? Of course the answer is the latter: These two groups of people had TWO DIFFERENT DOCTRINES………….. even though the word “doctrine” is SINGULAR.
Kathi, we have discussed this before, and I have already shown you about five scriptural examples of this. There are about 50 of them in the scriptures. Just remember the NLT translation I posted above. It is IMPLIED from their wording that they are talking about two different batches of leaven – one of the Pharisees, and one of the Herodians. You should be able to know this from the context – without having to read the NASB's translation.
So what does the context of Revelation tell us about thrones? Does it teach us that Jesus has HIS OWN throne, and the God of Jesus has HIS OWN throne? YEP, it does. Therefore, just like we learned from the NLT translation of Mark 8:15 above, the teaching is that the river flows from the “throne of God, and [the throne] of the Lamb” – despite the fact the author didn't write that second “the throne” into the sentence. The second throne is implied, just like the second batch of leaven is implied in the NLT version of Mark 8:15.
Finally Kathi, pay attention to the fact Jesus himself taught us that our God is also his God. For US, there is but one God, the Father. He is OUR God and also JESUS' God.
Think about that. If our God is also Jesus' God, then the only way Jesus could be our God is if he is the God of himself. Does that make sense to you, Kathi? (Nevermind. You're not really the best “logic barometer” around.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2012,23:39) If the Father is the only true God, as you claim, the Son is the only true ____. Please fill in the blank, thanks!
“Son, Servant, Messiah, Prophet, and Lamb OF God”.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,20:30) Yet you believe that Jesus was not eternal but had a beginning to His existence. When was that, t8?
Approximately 1,009,876,690,545,443.987987987 light years before creation. NOTE: I might be out by a .00001 of a nanosecond.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 28 2012,17:07) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,07:53) “Is that a deal?” Are you joking? Are you really needing to 'make a deal' before you will answer my questions?
Yes.
Why?Quote (t8 @ Oct. 28 2012,22:38) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,20:30) Yet you believe that Jesus was not eternal but had a beginning to His existence. When was that, t8?
Approximately 1,009,876,690,545,443.987987987 light years before creation. NOTE: I might be out by a .00001 of a nanosecond.
So, basically you have no ideaDo you believe that the Son that was begotten was within the Father beforehand in order to be begotten?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,20:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2012,23:39) If the Father is the only true God, as you claim, the Son is the only true ____. Please fill in the blank, thanks!
“Son, Servant, Messiah, Prophet, and Lamb OF God”.
Thanks Mike,
Do you think that 'Lord' should be on that list?Also, you listed that Jesus is the one true son. Why would he be the one true son?
Mike,
You forgot this verse…how many theos on the throne that the Father sits on after the Son has overcome?Rev 3:21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Mike,
Quote Jesus is showing his humility here, and teaching us that he can do NOTHING by himself. He is teaching us that the things he does are NOT UP TO HIM, but that he “puppets” his God and our God to make sure he's doing things the right way that pleases his God and our God. Jesus is letting us all know, without mincing words, that he is a faithful SERVANT of his God and our God, and that he does things the way he sees his God doing them – because left to his own devices, he could do NOTHING.
Let's just put John 5 right here and see how the Son is not being shy about who He is and what He can and will do because He is making Himself out to be the Son of God and equal with God:
The Healing at the Pool
1Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. 2Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. 3Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed.b 5One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”
7“Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”
8Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’”
12So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”
13The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.
14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
Life Through the Son
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but [/B]he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.[/B
19Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when[/B] the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. [/B]26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Testimonies About Jesus
31“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. 32There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.
33“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
36“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.[B] You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38[B]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.[/B] 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41“I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
45“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
No, Jesus was not being 'humble,' He was validating His relationship with God as His Father and therefore making Himself equal to God. The Jews understood that there were two Powers of YHWH who were distinct and that Jesus was identifying Himself as the second Power by claiming all He claimed in this chapter.
All the 'Jesus' talk about doing nothing' apart from the Father was to verify that He was in God's perfect will and YHWH's second Power. Jesus was no way claiming that He was just a puppet but that He can do everything the Father does…the Father shows Him everything that He does.
He even told those Pharisees to honor Him as they honor the Father. Does that sound humble to you? Jesus told the Pharisees that they need to believe Him or they won't be saved. Does that sound humble to you?
You make some sort of big theological mish mash out of this chapter claiming that Jesus is just a puppet in the Father's hand and that Jesus is wanting to show humility. I encourage you to look at what Jesus said to them about Himself and about themselves and you will see that humility was not the tone of the chapter but to verify His relationship to God as Father and Son.
Please note that in your response to the verse I showed you from this chapter, you called His Father “his God” and you called the Son “the servant” but not ONCE in this chapter did the Son refer to Himself as 'the servant' or to His Father as 'His God.' Mike this should tell you that you are trying very hard to change the message of this chapter to suit your false biased doctrine.
KATHI
Quote Let's just put John 5 right here and see how the Son is not being shy about who He is and what He can and will do because He is making Himself out to be the Son of God and equal with God: can you pin point what you say here
pleasePierre, t8, Mike,
To understand the first century Jew and how they saw YHWH as two powers watch this fourth video from here:http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41
Pierre, please watch that video and then I will pin point what you asked for. The video will help you understand what I will show you. Thanks!
Kathi,
I haven't read your post or watched your video yet. Tell me, do either of them change the words, “I can do NOTHING of my own initiative”?
Of not, then please explain those words to me – and how you think those are words of EQUALITY between the one who can do nothing without his God, and that God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2012,00:21) Pierre, t8, Mike,
To understand the first century Jew and how they saw YHWH as two powers watch this fourth video from here:http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41
Pierre, please watch that video and then I will pin point what you asked for. The video will help you understand what I will show you. Thanks!
]kathiI try to watch it but it did not worked,now answer the question
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2012,22:23) Kathi, I haven't read your post or watched your video yet. Tell me, do either of them change the words, “I can do NOTHING of my own initiative”?
Of not, then please explain those words to me – and how you think those are words of EQUALITY between the one who can do nothing without his God, and that God.
Mike, read the post and watch the video.The reason why Jesus said those words, imo, is because He is working always according to the Father's will and not just His. This is part of His perfection, not a weakness. His emphasis to the crowd is that He is in fact the Son of God who would be equal to God, like they said. He makes all sorts of claims to being able to do what his Father would do. Go back and read my post and see this.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,22:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2012,20:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2012,23:39) If the Father is the only true God, as you claim, the Son is the only true ____. Please fill in the blank, thanks!
“Son, Servant, Messiah, Prophet, and Lamb OF God”.
Thanks Mike,
Do you think that 'Lord' should be on that list?Also, you listed that Jesus is the one true son. Why would he be the one true son?
Bump for Mike.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,13:21) Pierre, t8, Mike,
To understand the first century Jew and how they saw YHWH as two powers watch this fourth video from here:http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41
Pierre, please watch that video and then I will pin point what you asked for. The video will help you understand what I will show you. Thanks!
Pierre,
Do you have another computer you can try to watch the video on or can you watch youtube videos? It really is helpful to watch this.Try this one, it is the same message through youtube:
Kathi there are more than 2 powers in Heaven.
The ultimate power is the Father.
He has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, thus the highest power under him.
We then likely have angels and Michael is likely the highest power in the angelic realm.
We also have 24 elders who we are not sure who they are. Some have suggested that they represent other worlds that are unfallen and we have 2 elders that represent all the Earth as it is written, making 12 worlds in that view.My point? That there are many powers and things that we are not aware of. If the universe is a big place, then what of all of creation?
Narrowing it all down to the highest 2 powers proves nothing of your doctrine.
God and angels is often mentioned together. What of that.
1 Timothy 5:21
“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels”.A Trinity of powers?
Or just a mention of different powers?
You try too hard to make external doctrines out of things that are just mentions of things as they are.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:06) 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
And? Aren't we told that the God of us and of Jesus did great signs and wonders through His holy servant Jesus?God also did great signs and wonders through many of His other servants throughout the scriptures. Are any of them equal to God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:06) 19Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
The Son can do NOTHING by himself? He is ONLY allowed to do what he sees his Father and God doing? To me, that sounds like a new intern being TRAINED by a superior. There is nothing in those words to indicate equality, and in fact, they indicate quite the opposite.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:06) 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.
So the Son hasn't yet seen all things? His Father and God is slowly showing him some pretty great things, and will show him even greater things as he progresses in his “training”?If there was equality, the Son would have already seen exactly as many things as the Father had seen. There would be no reason for the Father to “show him” anything at all.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2012,23:06) 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
We know from scripture that the God of Jesus has GRANTED some of His servants to give life. Elijah, Elisha, Paul, and Jesus, are some of them that come to mind.Why did Jesus' God have to GRANT this power to His servant Jesus? If they were equal, wouldn't Jesus already have had this power from “eternity”?
Kathi, I haven't answered to the entire chapter, but just hit on the first few things you bolded. And each one of these instances, which YOU are claiming show equality, actually show the OPPOSITE of equality.
I'm not sure how you're missing this.
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