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t8,
You should get to know the shema:“Hear O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God [Elohim; plural], the LORD [Yahweh] is One [echad; unity].”
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) Have you noticed that you are quick to condemn me and others that don't agree with you?
I don't condemn anyone. I am quick to point out lies, false doctrine, false teaching, and will point out great teaching even quicker. If I condemn a teaching and someone takes it personally it is because they believe the teaching. Otherwise they wouldn't take it personally.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2012,18:03) t8,
You should get to know the shema:“Hear O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God [Elohim; plural], the LORD [Yahweh] is One [echad; unity].”
I see.“Hear O Israel,Yahweh our Gods, the Yahweh is One substance.”
Let's just say that you are on your own with that one.
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) NO, if you read and understood what I was saying was that I had no schooling or any info about the Trinity. Only that Jesus died for my sins. I did not get saved because I believed in the Trinity or that I didn't believe in the Trinity.
A simple, “I was wrong” or “I don't know” would have sufficed.Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) NO again. I wanted to move on to the thought about 1John 5:7 and, (in light of 1Thes. 5:23), and get away to an endless debate that no one will move from.
Oh I understand you wanting to move on. The biggest proof verse for the Trinity is not even a biblical verse.A simple, “Oh I didn't realise that this was not a verse” would have sufficed.
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) Weather there is 3 Gods or not and find harsh words to me that I believe in a false doctrine etc.
If you believe in 3 Gods then it is false doctrine. Yes harsh words, but true. If you don't believe in 3 Gods, then the words remain and they will not be harsh.Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) A stumbling block??
A person who testifies, or teaches a false doctrine lays a stumbling block for others to also fall over.A person who asks a question or says I don't know is honest.
A person who teaches that the LORD God is one, obeys the first commandment by believing the most important of these commands. Jesus said that BTW.
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) I am beginning to see what you are. You don't know what manner of spirit you are. You are willing to command fire down on all who don't bow down to your bullying words.
Hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,15:56) I will say that if you pray and ask God to command fire down on me He will say NO.
I would pray no such thing.Instead I pray that you will love truth to the point that you would love to be correctly rebuked only so that you can be more true and have more understanding of truth.
I pray the same for me too.
t8,
Quote Oh I understand you wanting to move on. The biggest proof verse for the Trinity is not even a biblical verse.
A simple, “Oh I didn't realise that this was not a verse” would have sufficed.You see this is my point. You still accuse me of something I don't believe. Calling people out and telling them they are false teachers and lairs and stumbling blocks when they clearly have stated something different means you have a problem with hearing or reading. You are fixated on the Trinity and look for any thing to keep it alive.
Both of those You can interpret both of those scriptures however you like. but neither of them are trying to prove the Trinity.
When you take 1Thes. 5:23 and say Paul made a mistake or he meant something else than what he said you have become the false teacher. You will become a stumbling block to those who read it and believe Paul knew what he was talking about. You are the one who is trying to change the Word.
You would fit good in teaching the Law of God in the Old Testament because you seem to find the letter of the Law more appealing then Grace. Religion will do that. Muslims try to force people to believe in what they do and will do it an attitude. I don't expect Christians to act that way, “you believe like me or I will pronounce you an false teacher and try to discredit you” when you don't understand what or where someone in coming from.
At least try to find out for sure what someone is saying without telling them what they believe and are saying.Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 26 2012,00:25) t8, Quote Oh I understand you wanting to move on. The biggest proof verse for the Trinity is not even a biblical verse.
A simple, “Oh I didn't realise that this was not a verse” would have sufficed.You see this is my point. You still accuse me of something I don't believe. Calling people out and telling them they are false teachers and lairs and stumbling blocks when they clearly have stated something different means you have a problem with hearing or reading. You are fixated on the Trinity and look for any thing to keep it alive.
You can interpret both of those scriptures however you like. but neither of them are trying to prove the Trinity.
When you take 1Thes. 5:23 and say, Paul made a mistake or he meant something else than what he said then you have become the false teacher. You will become a stumbling block to those who read it and believe that Paul knew what he was talking about. You are the one who is trying to change the Word.
You would fit good in teaching the Law of God in the Old Testament because you seem to find the letter of the Law more appealing then Grace. Religion will do that. Muslims try to force people to believe in what they do and will do it an attitude. I don't expect Christians to act that way, “you believe like me or I will pronounce you an false teacher and try to discredit you” when you don't understand what or where someone in coming from.
At least try to find out for sure what someone is saying without telling them what they believe and are saying.
And yes with your attitude I believe you would be satisfied if God would send down fire to confirm you.T8
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 25 2012,03:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2012,18:03) t8,
You should get to know the shema:“Hear O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God [Elohim; plural], the LORD [Yahweh] is One [echad; unity].”
I see.“Hear O Israel,Yahweh our Gods, the Yahweh is One substance.”
Let's just say that you are on your own with that one.
“Hear O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God [Elohim; plural], the LORD [Yahweh] is One [echad; unity].”
Do you realize that Christians all over the world believe this? No, I am not alone. Echad is definitely a word that can imply a unity and Elohim is definitely a word that is written in the plural form.
You have only opinions to share? Is that the best you can do?
Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 25 2012,08:25) t8, Quote Oh I understand you wanting to move on. The biggest proof verse for the Trinity is not even a biblical verse.
A simple, “Oh I didn't realise that this was not a verse” would have sufficed.You see this is my point. You still accuse me of something I don't believe. Calling people out and telling them they are false teachers and lairs and stumbling blocks when they clearly have stated something different means you have a problem with hearing or reading. You are fixated on the Trinity and look for any thing to keep it alive.
Both of those You can interpret both of those scriptures however you like. but neither of them are trying to prove the Trinity.
When you take 1Thes. 5:23 and say Paul made a mistake or he meant something else than what he said you have become the false teacher. You will become a stumbling block to those who read it and believe Paul knew what he was talking about. You are the one who is trying to change the Word.
You would fit good in teaching the Law of God in the Old Testament because you seem to find the letter of the Law more appealing then Grace. Religion will do that. Muslims try to force people to believe in what they do and will do it an attitude. I don't expect Christians to act that way, “you believe like me or I will pronounce you an false teacher and try to discredit you” when you don't understand what or where someone in coming from.
At least try to find out for sure what someone is saying without telling them what they believe and are saying.
Good post Rich!Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2012,17:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,14:55) Also Kathi, t8's list is geared more toward those who believe in ONE Almighty God, who is a trinity of three persons. The test was not designed for people like you, who unscripturally believe we have TWO separate Almighty Gods.
Mike,
What 'list' of scriptures tears down my understanding as written in my signature, since you claim it is unscriptural.
There are too many to even count, Kathi, but we can start with this one:Mark 5:7 New International Version 1984
He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!”Here we learn that Jesus is NOT the Most High God, but the SON OF that One. We also learn that “God” is the person the demon asked Jesus to swear by – another indication that he is NOT the very God he could swear by.
Hi Mike,
I guess that meant that he was asking him to swear to himself then, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike,
Notice your verse does not say 'Most High YHWH,' or 'Most High Lord.' My claim is that Elohim, a unity of two who are both eternal, one is Father and one is Son, and the Father is the God of gods then the Son who is Lord of Lords would be the Son of the Most High God. The Lord of lords is the Son of the God of gods. YHWH is both the God of gods and the Lord of Lords…YHWH is echad!Try again
Kathi,
The SON OF the Most High God cannot also be the Most High God UNLESS you believe in TWO Most High Gods.
You do, so many things in scripture simply don't apply to you. See, you have forsaken the most critical teaching of the Bible: Yahweh your God is ONE.
You point out that the Hebrew word “echad” can refer to a unity of more than one individual, who are one in purpose, or whatever. Well, the English word “one” can also refer to a unity of more than one, as in, “my hope is that they be one with us, Father”. Does this use of the word “one”, in ANY language, truly support your theory of TWO Almighty Gods?
So then we point out all the times this ONE Most High God is referred to using singular pronouns, such as “HE” and “HIS”. Or how He refers to Himself with words such as “I” and “ME”.
What do you do at that point, Kathi? Naturally, you find instances where the nation of Israel, as a whole, we metaphorically referred to as “he”. There is no end to the lengths to which you will go to have your TWO Almighty Gods, and there is little we can do to stop you.
I have shown you the Song of Moses and Lamb in Revelation, and how this song is OBVIOUSLY a song that Moses and the Lamb sing TO God Almighty. What did you do at that point? Naturally, you went searching for “scholars” who illogically claimed that this “Song OF Moses AND OF the Lamb” was a song Moses sings TO the Lamb.
See? There is no end to it, and never will be – from the looks of it.
I have shown you many scriptures in which Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN the God who created the heaven, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. These scriptures leave no other option than for Jesus, as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things, to be one of the things created BY that One. But what did you do at that point, Kathi? That's right, you started trying to explain how our TWO different Almighty Gods are sometimes referred to separately, and that these verses list the Father as the Creator, but that it doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus is not ALSO the Creator.
There is simply no end to it, Kathi. So now here you are, telling me to “try again”. But for what purpose? So you can ILLOGICALLY twist the sensible meaning of scripture into some nonsensical meaning that supports your two Almighty Gods?
Sorry, but I've got better things to do.
I love you and will continue to pray that our ONE God helps you through HIS Son and HIS Holy Spirit to see the light.Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 25 2012,10:49) Hi Mike, I guess that meant that he was asking him to swear to himself then, right?
God bless
Ed J
There is a time in the OT where Jehovah swears by Himself, and to tell you the truth, I'm surprised Kathi didn't answer with that verse.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2012,10:55) Mike,
Notice your verse does not say 'Most High YHWH,' or 'Most High Lord.'
And why do you suppose this demon, “knowing” that Jesus is the “Most High Yahweh, Lord of lords”, didn't address him as such?Why did the demon address him as the SON OF the Most High God, knowing that Jesus was also one of our TWO Most High Gods?
Kathi, your explanations are void of God-given common sense.
Rich,
Your first posts led me to believe that you are a Trinitarian, and that you aimed to support the Trinity Doctrine by claiming that man is comprised of three things, a soul, a spirit, and a body.
Since then, not one person here has argued that man is NOT comprised of these three things – yet you still keep trying to teach this to us, as if we are disagreeing with you about it.
You have also brought up the spurious extra words of 1 John 5:7 a number of times, which is a non-issue, because those words didn't exist in the text of any Greek ms until the 14th century. It is clear, even to today's Trinitarian translators, that the words were added to the text much later, and that they don't belong in the inspired scriptures.
Other than that, I'm not sure where you stand on the issue of the Trinity. It seems that you started off strong trying to prove this doctrine, but are now backing off of it by saying it's not really important whether or not you believe God is a triune being.
I guess what I'm saying is that I have become lost over the course of your last few posts. I'm not sure what you are arguing FOR, except for the fact that man is comprised of three things – a fact with which no one here disagrees.
peace,
mike
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