The Trinity Doctrine

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,20:21)

Paul says your spirit soul and body. Was he not right? Was he speaking by himself of himself or by Gods direction?

Rich, it seems you're missing my point, which was:  SO WHAT if Paul speaks of a man's spirit, soul, and body?  Do each of these three things have a mind and will of their own?  If not, then that example DOES NOT match with the traditional teaching of a triune God who consists of three persons WHO DO have their own mind and will.

I could find lists of three things all throughout scripture and call them “trinities”, Rich.  What you need to do is prove how the mention of any particular three things in scripture MATCHES your theory of a God who is made up of three persons – EACH WITH THEIR OWN MIND AND WILL.

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,20:21)

Man is a spiritual being that has a soul, (that is where the mind, emotions, and will are) and lives in a body How can that be an illusion?

Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

Uh oh.  Now we have a “quadune” man, made up of FOUR things instead of three.  (Also, notice that the “mind” is listed separately from the “soul”.)

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,20:21)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) But even when you use only spirit, soul, and body, I still can't see a match with your triune God theory – unless you think that each of those three parts of man is a separate person with his own mind and will Why does the scripture in 1John 5:7 say “these 3 are one”? He did not say these 3 are 3.

Those extra words that are in the KJV have only been found in the text of FOUR mss, Rich.  And the earliest ms to have those words in the text dates from the 14th century.

If your biggest support comes from words that the Trinitarians don't even put in their Bibles anymore (because they know the extra words were ADDED later), then how much weight does your testimony hold for us?  Very little.

Also, why not address the POINT I was making in the quote box immediately above?  You can point out a thousand different groupings of three things in the scriptures if you want – but they will never match your idea of three persons in one being.

(Also, even if we were to accept the words, “these three are one”, who cares?  Jesus said he and his God were “one”, right?  And he conveyed a hope that the elect will also be one with their God and His holy servant Jesus, right?  What if Jesus spoke of the elect and said, “and these 144,000 are one” ?  What would that mean?  Would it mean they are all persons within an “Elect-head” being or something?)

Quote

To top it off, Jesus said in the garden as He was praying to God, “Not my will, but thine by done”. How do you read that?

I read it as concrete, scriptural proof that Jesus couldn't possibly have been the God whose will he came to do.  How can one being have conflicting wills within itself?

[Richtuner]

mikeboll64,

Quote

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,20:21) Paul says your spirit soul and body. Was he not right? Was he speaking by himself of himself or by Gods direction? Rich, it seems you're missing my point, which was: SO WHAT if Paul speaks of a man's spirit, soul, and body? Do each of these three things have a mind and will of their own? If not, then that example DOES NOT match with the traditional teaching of a triune God who consists of three persons WHO DO have their own mind and will.

I have to address this one again? Read my post, I said I did not believe in 3 separate Gods. The statement above is about man. Reading another scripture about mind, soul, body, strength, heart etc. has nothing to do with Paul's statement.
Why is it so hard to believe that God created man as a spirit being that has a soul and lives in a body? Does this offend you? Is it dangerous to who you are? We know that God spoke and created things. A few among many about God creating through His Word
Psa 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
You can't get around the fact that God in Gen 1:26 And God SAID, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
and also in Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I have never heard anyone in the 39 years of studying dispute the fact that this is three things that God did when creating man. SPOKE, FORMED, AND BREATHED. If God spoke and created ALL things but man then I guess I don't understand.
He spoke and created Angels which are spirit beings, but man???
When the bible says that a natural man does not receive the things of God for they are spiritually discerned, what part of man can discern spiritual things, the mind, the body??? I don't understand why people are so scared of man being spirit, soul and body. As stated before, yes the body has cravings that need to be put in submission and the soul is being saved or renewed daily. You can't be controlled by your soul or your body. The only part of you that was born again is your spirit. Full redemption will be when we get to heaven.
David said, “Bless the Lord oh my soul and ALL that is within me”

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,12:49)

SimplyForgiven, Quote Lose the word Triune, because there is nothing scriptural about it.  Francis, (A former forum member) mentioned a good example of how the Tabernacle is comparable to Jesus in a sense that God dwelt within the Tabernacle.  The Tabernacle remained as it is, yet God dwell in it, therefore being the spirit of God being with the Israelites.   Point being its the same with Jesus.  There is no need to look for God in three's, or in any triunity.  God has manifested Himself in many ways, as Jehovah Rapha, My healer, as my Helper, God Almighty, and etc.   In the end of the day, there is no need to define God for what you may think He is, He reveals Himself, but better be clear about what He isn't.   Okay you might want to tell me what you say about this scripture from Paul, 1Th_5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul spoke of the spirit, soul, and body of man.

RichT,

Examples of 3 things together proves nothing. I could do the same exercise with 2 and prove the Binity, or 4 and support a quadrinity.

And even all the trinities and trilogies prove nothing.

Here are some Trinities that are not some kind of God blob with 3 persons inside:

“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.”
“he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain.”

Even the many verses that talk about God, Jesus, and Spirit are not the Trinity because only one is called God in these examples and it is not Jesus, but the Father exclusively.

And remember that when you pray to a person you pray to HIM. When you pray to more than one person, then you pray to THEM. So be honest and refer to your God as THEM. I bet you don't have enough faith in your own doctrine to call God THEM and THEY and drop the HIM part due to grammatical error.

[Proclaimer]

RichT, try this fair test that proves the Trinity Doctrine is false.
If this test is not good enough for you, then obviously in that case, the bible is not good enough for you.

Be honest when you consider this:

Try replacing the word ‘God’ in any of the 100 verses below (or any other verse containing that word) and replace with the word ‘Trinity’ (or Father, Son, Holy Spirit). E.g. John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Becomes: “For THE TRINITY so loved the world that THE TRINITY gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

And if you think Jesus is God and the creator, then also try replacing each instance of God with Jesus. So now you have: “For JESUS so loved the world that JESUS gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You will find that a Trinitarian understanding of God completely smashes all these scriptures that come into contact with this idea.

Randomly choose any 5 of these as that will not take up much of your time:

Matthew 27:46
Mark 1:24
Mark 10:18
Mark 15:34
Mark 16:19
Luke 2:52
Luke 6:12
Luke 18:19
John 3:2
John 8:42
John 8:54
John 9:3
John 13:31
John 14:1*
John 17:3
John 20:17
Acts 2:22
Acts 2:32
Acts 2:36
Acts 3:13
Acts 4:10
Acts 5:30
Acts 7:55
Acts 10:36
Acts 10:38
Acts 13:23
Acts 20:21
Romans 1:7
Romans 1:8
Romans 2:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 4:24
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:11
Romans 5:15
Romans 5:17
Romans 6:23
Romans 7:25
Romans 8:34
Romans 10:9
Romans 15:5
Romans 15:6
Romans 16:27
1 Corinthians 1:3
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Corinthians 1:30
1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 15:57
2 Corinthians 1:2
2 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 11:31
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 1:1
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17
Ephesians 2:6
Ephesians 6:23
Philippians 1:2
Philippians 2:11
Colossians 1:3*
Colossians 3:17
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 1:3
1 Thessalonians 3:11
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 5:9
2 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
2 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Timothy 1:1
1 Timothy 1:2
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Timothy 5:21
1 Timothy 6:3
2 Timothy 1:1
2 Timothy 1:2
2 Timothy 4:1
Titus 1:4
Titus 2:13
Philemon 1:3
Hebrews 13:20
James 1:1
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:5
2 Peter 1:1
2 Peter 1:2
1 John 5:1*
1 John 5:20
2 John 1:3
Jude 1:1
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:21
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 1:2
Revelation 14:12

https://heavennet.net/writings/100-indisputable-proof-verses/

[Proclaimer]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2012,13:30)

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 19 2012,06:42) Quote Richtuner  do you believe this scripture, yes or no? John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I'm guessing that you have some other way of looking at this scripture. Jesus was ask several questions just so the people could catch Him in His own word to find some fault, but yes I believe that scripture. Now for the Uh Hu………….. . Okay, you believe that scripture. That means you do not believe that Jesus is God. Now I know where you stand on that subject. Just an easy way to establish your stance without having to read everything.

Do you really believe this scripture or are you just saying that so that you give an appearance of believing the scriptures?

You can't believe that scripture if you believe that God is a Trinity. It is as simple as that.

[Richtuner]

t8, I will ask you the same question. Have you read my post? Let me show a quote,

Quote

Read my post, I said I did not believe in 3 separate Gods. The statement above is about man

If you would read it you should have seen that part.
I'm beginning to believe that some people who are on this forum are here to find something to fight about regardless.
My point given above is still attacked as though I said something different that does not jive with your beliefs. Why wast time attacking something that I didn't say?
Do you want to show others how much you know about something by continuing to focus on it? I'm not impressed with the same thing over and over. I'm impressed when someone has read my full post and understand what I said. They can have some input I could use. If they don't understand, they will address that with a question without criticizing what they don't understand. I'm sure if yo went to school you didn't act like this. If you did I wonder about your eduction.
Sorry for my attitude, but it get old when someone will only read what they want to just so they can attack them.
Remember that when God had His talk with Job, God told Him that when he was justifying himself. he was condemning, (criticizing) someone else, (in this case was his 3 friends).
It is better to witness to someone about Jesus as much as possible than to harp on something all the time that you don't understand.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 22 2012,05:11)

RichT, try this fair test that proves the Trinity Doctrine is false. If this test is not good enough for you, then obviously in that case, the bible is not good enough for you. Be honest when you consider this: Try replacing the word ‘God’ in any of the 100 verses below (or any other verse containing that word) and replace with the word ‘Trinity’ (or Father, Son, Holy Spirit). E.g. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Becomes: “For THE TRINITY so loved the world that THE TRINITY gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. And if you think Jesus is God and the creator, then also try replacing each instance of God with Jesus. So now you have: “For JESUS so loved the world that JESUS gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. You will find that a Trinitarian understanding of God completely smashes all these scriptures that come into contact with this idea. Randomly choose any 5 of these as that will not take up much of your time: Matthew 27:46 Mark 1:24 Mark 10:18 Mark 15:34 Mark 16:19 Luke 2:52 Luke 6:12 Luke 18:19 John 3:2 John 8:42 John 8:54 John 9:3 John 13:31 John 14:1* John 17:3 John 20:17 Acts 2:22 Acts 2:32 Acts 2:36 Acts 3:13 Acts 4:10 Acts 5:30 Acts 7:55 Acts 10:36 Acts 10:38 Acts 13:23 Acts 20:21 Romans 1:7 Romans 1:8 Romans 2:16 Romans 3:22 Romans 4:24 Romans 5:1 Romans 5:11 Romans 5:15 Romans 5:17 Romans 6:23 Romans 7:25 Romans 8:34 Romans 10:9 Romans 15:5 Romans 15:6 Romans 16:27 1 Corinthians 1:3 1 Corinthians 1:9 1 Corinthians 1:30 1 Corinthians 8:6 1 Corinthians 15:57 2 Corinthians 1:2 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 2 Corinthians 13:14 Galatians 1:1 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 2:6 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Philippians 2:11 Colossians 1:3* Colossians 3:17 1 Thessalonians 1:1 1 Thessalonians 1:3 1 Thessalonians 3:11 1 Thessalonians 3:13 1 Thessalonians 4:14 1 Thessalonians 5:9 2 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Thessalonians 1:2 2 Thessalonians 1:12 2 Thessalonians 2:16 1 Timothy 1:1 1 Timothy 1:2 1 Timothy 2:5 1 Timothy 5:21 1 Timothy 6:3 2 Timothy 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 2 Timothy 4:1 Titus 1:4 Titus 2:13 Philemon 1:3 Hebrews 13:20 James 1:1 1 Peter 1:2 1 Peter 2:5 2 Peter 1:1 2 Peter 1:2 1 John 5:1* 1 John 5:20 2 John 1:3 Jude 1:1 Jude 1:4 Jude 1:21 Jude 1:25 Revelation 1:1 Revelation 1:2 Revelation 14:12 https://heavennet.net/writings/100-indisputable-proof-verses/

And when you are done with those verses, put t8's understanding to the test when God is mentioned in some other verses…substitute 'God' with the word 'Father' and see if t8's understanding passes the test:

John 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?].

John 20:26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my [Father?]!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

John 1:18
No one has seen the Father at any time; the only begotten [Father?] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Three verses, just for starters, to show that t8's test proves his own doctrine false.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 20 2012,21:54)

Watch this for a scholar teaching about the Jewish Trinity: Israelite Monotheism He specializes and has a doctorate in studying ancient texts. This will be helpful to all!

Watch this people!!!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 21 2012,18:20)

Read my post, I said I did not believe in 3 separate Gods.

Nor did I ever imply that you DID say that.  

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 21 2012,18:20)

Why is it so hard to believe that God created man as a spirit being that has a soul and lives in a body? Does this offend you?

It isn't hard to believe, nor does it offend me.  On the other hand, when certain people try to use this fact to “prove” that our God is a triune being consisting of three separate people, it IS hard for me to believe, and it DOES offend me.

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 21 2012,18:20)

I don't understand why people are so scared of man being spirit, soul and body.

I'm not quite sure what you are ranting about here, for I have never been “scared” of man being spirit, soul, and body.  Nor have I ever said that God DIDN'T speak and create things.  

Rich, whose post are you really addressing here – because you are “correcting” me about things of which I've not even spoken.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:11)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?].

That is brilliant, Kathi. So simple, yet I've never thought to use it!

Obviously, if the God the Word was with in John 1:1 was the Father, then the Word could not possibly be the Father, right?

This analogy doesn't help me in my battle against the Trinitarians, but it sure helps against people like Ed, Kerwin, Gene, and others who understand 1:1 to be teaching that God was His own Word that He was with.

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

Try “HolySpirit” instead.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,23:53)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:11) John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?]. That is brilliant, Kathi.  So simple, yet I've never thought to use it!   Obviously, if the God the Word was with in John 1:1 was the Father, then the Word could not possibly be the Father, right? This analogy doesn't help me in my battle against the Trinitarians, but it sure helps against people like Ed, Kerwin, Gene, and others who understand 1:1 to be teaching that God was His own Word that He was with.

ohhh Kathi,

Thank you.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 23 2012,13:00)

Hi Mike, Try “HolySpirit” instead. God bless Ed J

Sorry Ed,

But we've been down this road a number of times already. Your theory only works if the Holy Spirit BECAME (not “came to be IN”) flesh and dwelled on earth. (John 1:14)

It only works if the Holy Spirit is the only begotten son who God sent to explain Him. (1:18)

So, did the Holy Spirit BECOME flesh? YES or NO?

Is the Holy Spirit of God the son of God? YES or NO?

See? Your theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 23 2012,13:26)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,23:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:11) John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?]. That is brilliant, Kathi.  So simple, yet I've never thought to use it!   Obviously, if the God the Word was with in John 1:1 was the Father, then the Word could not possibly be the Father, right? This analogy doesn't help me in my battle against the Trinitarians, but it sure helps against people like Ed, Kerwin, Gene, and others who understand 1:1 to be teaching that God was His own Word that He was with. ohhh Kathi, Thank you.

I should point out, that while Kathi's point is well taken, we can't HONESTLY just shoot down t8's 100 scriptures by pointing out there are examples in scripture where the word “god” doesn't refer to Jehovah.

Also Kathi, t8's list is geared more toward those who believe in ONE Almighty God, who is a trinity of three persons.

The test was not designed for people like you, who unscripturally believe we have TWO separate Almighty Gods.  

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2012,06:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 23 2012,13:00) Hi Mike, Try “HolySpirit” instead. God bless Ed J Sorry Ed, But we've been down this road a number of times already.  Your theory only works if the Holy Spirit BECAME (not “came to be IN”) flesh and dwelled on earth.  (John 1:14)   It only works if the Holy Spirit is the only begotten son who God sent to explain Him.  (1:18) (1)So, did the Holy Spirit BECOME flesh?  YES or NO? (2)Is the Holy Spirit of God the son of God?  YES or NO? See?  Your theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Hi Mike,

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with [HolySpirit],
and the Word was [HolySpirit]. (John 1:1)

1) Yes (See 1Tm.3:16, 2Cor.5:19, & Acts 10:38)
2) No

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 23 2012,14:14)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2012,06:48) Is the Holy Spirit of God the son of God?  YES or NO? No

Good enough then.  Read John 1:14-18, Ed.  This very Word who became flesh is the only begotten Son of God who came to make God known to us.

You say the Holy Spirit is NOT the Son of God, right?  That means the Holy Spirit CANNOT be the Word who became flesh, because the Word who became flesh was the only begotten Son of God who came to make God known to us.

P.S.  None of those scriptures you listed say the Holy Spirit ever BECAME flesh and dwelled on earth.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:15)

Watch this for a scholar teaching about the Jewish Trinity: Israelite Monotheism He specializes and has a doctorate in studying ancient texts. This will be helpful to all!

Hi Kathi,

I started your video, and within the first 3 minutes, the guy said he was going to “give us a target”, and show us how to read OT scriptures with that “target” in mind.  

Hmmmmmm………………..

Isn't that the basis of all unscriptural teachings?  Don't they all start off with a pre-conceived “target” of what certain people WANT the scriptures to teach?  Don't those people then go about searching for scriptures they can twist, misapply, and take out of context until they align with the pre-conceived “target” those people started with?  

Assuming his “target” was going to be “Jesus is God Almighty”, I didn't continue to watch the video after that part.  Perhaps I will finish it someday.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You need to give this video a chance…you like the other one that he teaches on. Please

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,13:53)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:11) John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?]. That is brilliant, Kathi.  So simple, yet I've never thought to use it!   Obviously, if the God the Word was with in John 1:1 was the Father, then the Word could not possibly be the Father, right? This analogy doesn't help me in my battle against the Trinitarians, but it sure helps against people like Ed, Kerwin, Gene, and others who understand 1:1 to be teaching that God was His own Word that He was with.

Glad you find it helpful!

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,14:55)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 23 2012,13:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2012,23:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,17:11) John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was [Father?]. That is brilliant, Kathi.  So simple, yet I've never thought to use it!   Obviously, if the God the Word was with in John 1:1 was the Father, then the Word could not possibly be the Father, right? This analogy doesn't help me in my battle against the Trinitarians, but it sure helps against people like Ed, Kerwin, Gene, and others who understand 1:1 to be teaching that God was His own Word that He was with. ohhh Kathi, Thank you. I should point out, that while Kathi's point is well taken, we can't HONESTLY just shoot down t8's 100 scriptures by pointing out there are examples in scripture where the word “god” doesn't refer to Jehovah. Also Kathi, t8's list is geared more toward those who believe in ONE Almighty God, who is a trinity of three persons. The test was not designed for people like you, who unscripturally believe we have TWO separate Almighty Gods.

Mike,
What 'list' of scriptures tears down my understanding as written in my signature, since you claim it is unscriptural.

[Author]

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