The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

SimplyForgiven,

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Well the best thing I Can tell you is that you hold on to words that have no scriptural bases, and already have a doctrine of their own.

That's a new for me. Every thing I have stated I have used scripture.
Yes I know about the Old Testament prophecy where Jesus would say “I thirst”, but honestly where can you find anyone giving someone a drink of vinegar for thirst? They gave Him and anyone vinegar to prolong the the agony while being crucified. The Romans were cruel people and did not give Him vinegar to quench His thirst. And what about the “gall” in that prophecy? I believe this was stated by Jesus to show the depth of His sacrifice. He who knew no sin became sin.
When He said ” My God why hath thou forsaken me?”, that showed to what extent He went to in order to redeem man, but how much more to know that Jesus never thirsted for life, He was life and yet gave up life for mankind.
You may want to believe it was vinegar that satisfied His thirst, but I see it as His depth of love and sacrifice for me.
To sum it up, when Jesus became sin, did He not lose eternal life? If He became sin, He would be like us, spiritually dead. How can you be spiritually dead and posses eternal life? “ye who were dead in your sins were made alive in Christ” You can't be both.
As far as the statement about Jesus being a “product of” please don't take that as a negative belittling statement about Jesus. When you were first born you were a product of mankind, the human race from Adam, (the root of mankind is Adam), being born again means that you are now a product of God in Jesus by the Spirit through the Word. Product may be a bad choose of words, but the meaning of it is the point.
About another from someone who criticized me about man being a triune being, think about the tabernacle that God had Moses put up. It is well known that it is a picture of man. The outer court, (the body), the inter court, (the soul), and the Holy of Holies, (the spirit). What separated the the spirit of man from God? The vail pictured in the tabernacle. When Jesus was crucified it said the vail was rent from top to bottom. Paul said when the spirit turns to God the vail is removed. This is the true circumcision mad with out hands. Physical circumcision is a type and show of the true.
Everything I believe is backed by scripture. The things I don't comment of is because I don't have the “full assurance of understanding” yet.
I remember after I go saved some women ask If I had been baptized in the name of Jesus only. I said in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. They showed me in Acts whenever they baptized it was in “in the name of Jesus” only. that caught my attention. I knew I was converted, no question about it but was a challenge. It literally took a number of years to have the “full assurance” of understanding before I was ready to commit to it.
What I am saying is none of you can convince me that I am using anything but scripture for what I believe. I'm not perfect but I know people like to find fault even with Jesus when He was on earth. I still can learn a lot, but not from those who think I don't use scripture even when I quote scripture. Scripture will confirm it's self over and over again.
Sorry, but just like Ed J who tries to explain who Jesus by math. You can only use scripture not math. I think of what Paul said in Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

October 19, 2012 at 4:30 am#316709

Participant

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 19 2012,12:45)

Sorry, but just like Ed J who tries to explain who Jesus by math. You can only use scripture not math. I think of what Paul said in Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Hi Richtuner,

“For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit (John 1:14) by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:34-36)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Reason for Edit: I moved the Scriptural reference.

October 19, 2012 at 4:38 am#316711

terraricca

Participant

EDJ

do you think that this verses apply after his dead or before

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure (John 1:14) unto him.

this verse is obveous to his presence has a man

October 19, 2012 at 5:14 am#316719

Participant

Richtuner,

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That's a new for me. Every thing I have stated I have used scripture.

Just because you used scripture doesn't mean your interpreting or using it right. Get what im sayin?
I don't want to make this long so I'll just comment on what I see fit. Now I understand why Mike doesn't like long posts.
The shorter the sweeter.

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Yes I know about the Old Testament prophecy where Jesus would say “I thirst”, but honestly where can you find anyone giving someone a drink of vinegar for thirst?

So you first admit you know of the prophecy, yet you still question the true meaning of John 19:28?
Your question has no warrant behind it. Its simply your “wishful thinking” and speculation to make the verse imply another meaning other than the orginal intent.
What is the orginal intent? So that He may complete the prophecy in Psalm 69:21.
Im not going to speculate further, because than I would be guilty of adding or implying something more than what the scripture is saying.

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The Romans were cruel people and did not give Him vinegar to quench His thirst.

Thats your opinon and speculation. You can't deny the possibility espeaiclly when there is a witness who saw such an event. In other words your implying that John was either lying about what he saw, or he was using it as a metaphor (which wouldnt make sense).

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You may want to believe it was vinegar that satisfied His thirst, but I see it as His depth of love and sacrifice for me.

You can believe whatever you want, He was human afterall, he ate, slept, and even drank. So there is nothing belitteling about being thirsty.

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being a triune being, think about the tabernacle that God had Moses put up. It is well known that it is a picture of man. The outer court, (the body), the inter court, (the soul), and the Holy of Holies, (the spirit). What separated the the spirit of man from God? The vail pictured in the tabernacle. When Jesus was crucified it said the vail was rent from top to bottom. Paul said when the spirit turns to God the vail is removed.

Lose the word Triune, because there is nothing scriptural about it. Francis, (A former forum member) mentioned a good example of how the Tabernacle is comparable to Jesus in a sense that God dwelt within the Tabernacle. The Tabernacle remained as it is, yet God dwell in it, therefore being the spirit of God being with the Israelites. Point being its the same with Jesus. There is no need to look for God in three's, or in any triunity. God has manifested Himself in many ways, as Jehovah Rapha, My healer, as my Helper, God Almighty, and etc. In the end of the day, there is no need to define God for what you may think He is, He reveals Himself, but better be clear about what He isn't.

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Everything I believe is backed by scripture

Everyone says that here, doesn't make it so. If anything if its the truth it doesn't need scripture basis for it.
For example in the study of biology there is a plenty of things that are not mention in the bible such as, genes, protiens, photosythesis, and etc. Doesn't make it not true. If its truth, than its truth.
But its a bold cliam your making that EVERYTHING you say has scriptural basis. What if I find one thing you say to be misleading? Will your retract your statemenet?

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I remember after I go saved some women ask If I had been baptized in the name of Jesus only.

Whether your baptized in the name of Jesus or the Holy Trinity, it wouldn't matter. It doesn't mean your save unless you been baptized by fire. (check it out I can even find you a scripture for it 😉 Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:)
You don't choose it, its not an option. Its more as a grace bestowed and revealed to you. In the same way Paul the Apostle was converted.

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What I am saying is none of you can convince me that I am using anything but scripture for what I believe.

You can use the scripture all you want, but that doesn't mean you inherited eternal life. As I said before, if you don't know the Author, than how can you even hope to understand His intent when so many people claim left and right that they have the truth but don't.
And I think thats a bit egotistcal of you, to not have ear to hear or listen.

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

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I still can learn a lot, but not from those who think I don't use scripture even when I quote scripture. Scripture will confirm it's self over and over again.
Sorry, but just like Ed J who tries to explain who Jesus by math. You can only use scripture not math. I think of what Paul said in Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

All I have been doing is correcting the scripture you have misinterpreted and also given you other scriptures to consider.
On top of that, you have been the one offering explaintions for YOUR theology, of what you think, doesn't make it so.
So shouldn't you take your own advice?
In other words this is what your telling me, “No one can change my mind, so don't bother, because I won't listen, but everyone you must listen to me though!”
With all due respect, isn't that hypocrital?
You ask those around you to listen, but you don't incline your ear to listen?
If your secure in the truth, than listening or reading other material wouldn't change that. Unless you don't believe the scripture that says:
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
So unless people believe you first, than you will listen. Your saying “Let me teach, believe me, and than I will believe you” or “If yo
u don't agree with me, than I can't learn from you”?

At this moment thats your attitude sir.
A humble approach would better suit you if you intend to learn. Your approach is contradicting, and also not scriptural.
You said:

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Everything I believe is backed by scripture

Is your attitude, approach, and motive back by scripture at all?
Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Your exposed by your own words.

To sum it all up, As I said before.
If you don't know the Author, than your far from the truth. Studying scripture, which could be a good thing or a bad thing, is only worth anything if you truly know the Author.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Note: I've used scripture, I've listened to you, and its more likely you will not listen to me still no matter how much proof I put right in front of your face. Unless your ready to be humble enough to admit you may be wrong, than your not ready to understand whatever God wants to reveal to you.

October 19, 2012 at 5:22 am#316721

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 17 2012,12:42)

Hi Dennison,
Good to have you back.

Nice to see you Wm,

I don't think I'll be back for long. Just for now.

October 19, 2012 at 10:49 pm#316772

Participant

SimplyForgiven,

Quote

Okay you might want to tell me what you say about this scripture from Paul,
1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul spoke of the spirit, soul, and body of man.

October 20, 2012 at 10:54 pm#316929

mikeboll64

Blocked

Rich,

I could speak about the fruit, peel, and seed of a banana. It wouldn't prove a triune God any more than Paul's words in 1 Thess 5:23 prove a triune God.

October 21, 2012 at 12:34 am#316941

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2012,03:54)

Rich,

I could speak about the fruit, peel, and seed of a banana. It wouldn't prove a triune God any more than Paul's words in 1 Thess 5:23 prove a triune God.

What ^Mike said, Rich.

There is nothing there that says God is three persons.

October 21, 2012 at 12:36 am#316942

Participant

mikeboll64,

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I could speak about the fruit, peel, and seed of a banana. It wouldn't prove a triune God any more than Paul's words in 1 Thess 5:23 prove a triune God.

This scripture has nothing to do with God and the Trinity, it has to do with man being triune. It was stated in this forum that man was not triune, I used the tabernacle as a point that is showed man, outer court typified body, inter court typified the soul and the Holy of Holies typified man's spirit. The scriptures will not contradict it's self. Notice the vail. What separates us from God, but the vail. The bible is clear that there is a vail over man's spirit. When the spirit turns to God the vail will be removed. Remember that the vail in the temple was rent from top to bottom when Jesus died on the cross? Why do you think that was recorded? This signified that there would be a removal of the vail that it over man's spirit when born again.
I said that I did not believe that there are 3 separate Gods, only one God as stated in the bible, but I used 1John 5:7 to state that God can be seen in 3 ways. Like Father, Word, (seed), and Spirit.
A word about this scripture because it is in italics. I've see people go off the reservation because they say it is not in any early writings, (Although some say it is in a few just not in all) regardless I don't worry about it if it fits with truth.
Think about it, God who created all things visible and invisible in heaven and earth, and everything is upheld by the Word of His power. Who it was said that He moved on man to write the Old Testament. He has the power and control to make sure everything in the Old Testament is accurate, but some how He can't control what is in the New Testament? Yet the Word declares that should not add or subtract to the Word.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake0 as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Let's take another one is in Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. The word “them” is in italics What is the meaning with and without that word? I think you will find it's the same. God will work with you if you speak the Word, He will always work with the Word, but if you don't use the Word, He can't work with you, just His Word. So He did work with them and the Word because they used the Word. Same thing.
Scriptures that is in italics don't bother me if it will build on truth.
When I think about man I see he is a spirit being with a soul and lives in a body. When God said “lets us make man in our image and in our likeness”, I have no problem with seeing, (this one) God as Father Word and Spirit.

October 21, 2012 at 12:46 am#316948

Participant

Hi Richturner, for 1John 5:7 to authentic: it should read… (Link)

1John 5:7 From heaven, there are three that born witness: “The Father”, “The Word” and “Jesus”.

עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)
(Trinity and non-Trinity, can both views be correct?) <– Yes, read the thread and see how.

October 21, 2012 at 1:32 am#316954

Participant

Ed J said

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Hi Richturner, for 1John 5:7 to authentic: it should read… (Link)

1John 5:7 From heaven, there are three that born witness: “The Father”, “The Word” and “Jesus”.

But it doesn't. That would indicate 3 Gods verifying the Trinity. I don't believe in 3 Gods, only one just as the bible states. “I am God and there is none other”. The purpose of 1John 5:7 is to see God in the same way we can see man in Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are created by God in His image and likeness. God has the world set up to appropriate by seed. He created everything by His Word which is “seed”. God said, (spoke) and it was so.
I can fond no fault in this. It does not diminish God in any way nor change who He is. Just like seeing man spirit, soul, and body does not change us. In fact it will help us to understand ourselves better.
The root of man is his spirit. The roots decide what kind of tree it will be, good or bad. I will speak of it's fruit. Remember when Jesus came to the fig tree and it had no fruit? He “said” to the tree, “no man eat fruit of thee hearafter for ever”, Mark 11:14. The tree died from the roots, not from the bark, leaves, or branches. This is there to signify it is our roots that have death, (spiritual death) reigning. Just as the roots supply the tree, so we get our supply,(soul, body etc) from our spirit. When God told Adam the day he ate of the tree is was not to eat of he would die, (die a spiritual death).
Death in it's pure meaning is to be “separated from:. To die physically is to be separated from the body. To die spiritually is to be separated from the life of God as Adam. The separation came by way of the vail. This vail is passed down to all mankind according to Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: This is passed down by seed. What Adam did we all did because we all were in Adam.
Just the same, by the seed of faith we can the say that same thing about us in Christ. What He did we all did by way of seed. From Adam it comes by birth, and in Jesus it comes by being born again.
The bible said when Jesus died we died with Him , when He arose we also arose with Him and are seated with Him in Heaven.
I was not around when Adam died nor when Jesus arose, but by virtue of the seed that I was conceived by, (weather Adam of Jesus) I partake in all things.

October 21, 2012 at 1:38 am#316955

Participant

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 21 2012,12:32)

Ed J said

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Hi Richturner, for 1John 5:7 to authentic: it should read… (Link)

1John 5:7 From heaven, there are three that born witness: “The Father”, “The Word” and “Jesus”.

But it doesn't. That would indicate 3 Gods verifying the Trinity.

No,

aspects:

1. A particular part or feature of something.
2. A specific way in which something can be considered.

October 21, 2012 at 1:49 am#316960

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 21 2012,12:38)

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 21 2012,12:32)

Ed J said

Quote

Hi Richturner, for 1John 5:7 to authentic: it should read… (Link)

1John 5:7 From heaven, there are three that born witness: “The Father”, “The Word” and “Jesus”.

But it doesn't. That would indicate 3 Gods verifying the Trinity.

No,

aspects:

1. A particular part or feature of something.
2. A specific way in which something can be considered.

Richtuner also said:

Quote

by virtue of the seed that I was conceived by, (weather Adam of Jesus) I partake in all things.

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.” (Rev 3:21)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 21, 2012 at 1:55 am#316965

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,18:36)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

I could speak about the fruit, peel, and seed of a banana. It wouldn't prove a triune God any more than Paul's words in 1 Thess 5:23 prove a triune God.

This scripture has nothing to do with God and the Trinity, it has to do with man being triune.

I agree that the scripture doesn't say anything about any trinity God.

As far as man being triune, it depends on how far you want to go to make the illusion become truth. You could say man consists of a heart, mind, soul, spirit, and body, which would make him “quintune”. But since you WANT man to be “triune” to further your claim that God is triune, you will stop at just spirit, soul, and body.

But even when you use only spirit, soul, and body, I still can't see a match with your triune God theory – unless you think that each of those three parts of man is a separate person with his own mind and will.

Do you?

October 21, 2012 at 2:00 am#316967

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2012,06:55)

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 20 2012,18:36)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

I could speak about the fruit, peel, and seed of a banana. It wouldn't prove a triune God any more than Paul's words in 1 Thess 5:23 prove a triune God.

This scripture has nothing to do with God and the Trinity, it has to do with man being triune.

I agree that the scripture doesn't say anything about any trinity God.

Do you?

Mike,

I think he (Rich) believes in one God made of three parts, such as humans are.

however, thats not what Trinity means.

In other words its either he is trying change the word to mean something else.

Or he is trying to explain God in the pattern of 3..

Or I don't know.

Trinity is just dead.

October 21, 2012 at 2:09 am#316973

mikeboll64

Blocked

Yeah, I haven't quite got Rich figured out yet. I was assuming that he had the traditional Trinitarian view of one God consisting of three individual persons.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

October 21, 2012 at 2:21 am#316980

Participant

mikeboll64,

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As far as man being triune, it depends on how far you want to go to make the illusion become truth

Are you kidding me, Illusion? What part of illusion is in this scripture,
Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus.
Paul says your spirit soul and body. Was he not right? Was he speaking by himself of himself or by Gods direction? Man is a spiritual being that has a soul, (that is where the mind, emotions, and will are) and lives in a body How can that be an illusion?

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Why does the scripture in 1John 5:7 say “these 3 are one”? He did not say these 3 are 3. You are not reading the Word or anyones posts right. You seem to have a one minded view of things. No matter if I say 3 all you see is 4. Stay with I say and not what you think I said and you will understand what I'm saying.
To top it off, Jesus said in the garden as He was praying to God, “Not my will, but thine by done”. How do you read that?

October 21, 2012 at 2:53 am#316987

terraricca

Participant

RICH

Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus

IF YOU EXPLAIN THIS SCRIPTURE YOU CAN SEE THAT A MAN IS COMPOST IN THREE PART TO EXIST AND ONE OR MORE OF THOSE PARTS CAN BE DESTROYED EITHER BY MEN OR BY GOD BUT ONLY THE SOUL CAN NOT BE DESTROYED BY MEN ,AS FOR THE SPIRIT WHAT MEANS ” OUR WILL,WHAT WE BELIEVE AND STAND FOR ,

SO IF WE LOOK TRULLY WE CAN SEE THAT WE ARE IN FACT ONLY COMPOST OF TWO THINGS ” A BODY AND A SOUL ” THE SPIRIT IS ONLY WHAT WE MAKE OF THOSE TWO WHEN WE ARE ALIVE IN THE BODY,

October 21, 2012 at 2:54 am#316988

Lightenup

Participant

Watch this for a scholar teaching about the Jewish Trinity: Israelite Monotheism

He specializes and has a doctorate in studying ancient texts. This will be helpful to all!

October 21, 2012 at 3:39 am#316995