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Hi Richtuner (And hi to everyone else it has been some time),
Tonight I decided to come back and see how things are here, and decided to respond to you. In the past i never rebuttaled against Trinitarians nor pick at them too much for the sake of survival (Shutup Mike.) and not getting gang up all at once. Whether WJ and KJ are still around I know not, but today I guess I'm not worried about such things anymore when its for the truth of all things.
Anyways to start things off, I want you to understand my premise which is that you can either believe that Jesus is God, or that He is not.
Here is the definition of Trinity that I am going to go by.
Trinity: As most know, the Concept of Trinity is basically explained as the Father is God, but not the Son nor the Holy spirit. The Son is God, but not the Father nor the Holy spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but is not the Son nor the Father. Yet these three persons make the one God.
Best explained by the Trinity shield http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity, and is a concept that was thought up by Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited with using the words “Trinity”,[11] “person” and “substance”[12] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “one in essence—not one in Person”.[13]Quote For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7) I have been criticized for using the scripture in 1 John 5:7 because it is in italics. That does not bother me it fits with other scriptures or doctrine.
Rich, You have been critized for using that scripture because its been rejected as one which is why its in italics because its suspected to be fraudulent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
All though you are right, whether if its a verse that crept in the text some time later, if its truth and matches with other texts than there shouldn't be a problem. The Question is, is it the truth?From reading your whole post you basically summed it by this statement.
Quote Redemption is accomplished by a man who had no sin but who was a product of the human race, (not of the nature) in order to be the Lamb of God without sin or spot. This is the mystery of Righteousness, God manifested in the flesh. I can already tell you that you don't believe in the Trinity. It doesn't exist. So there is no need to argue about it, because basically you need just let the term go, or your just in denial.
Quote Jesus according to John 5:26 is a product of “the life”.
Jesus was more than just the “product”, but IS LIFE itself.
Take the scriptures in context of what you quoted such as:
39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
And
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.He is Life, and the Life giver. I wouldn't belittle His entity.
In the end all I can tell you is that you can either believe that Jesus is God, or that he is a separate being apart from God. The Trinity as known, is a failed attempt to explain God.
Which in general, trying to explain God, without knowing Him is doomed for failure. Studying God, and human/carnal methods an attempt to understand God gets you no where, but into more confusion. You can compare the use of studying as windshield wipers for a car in a heavy storm in traffic. No matter how fast those wipers are going, your not going to see any clearer. So Slow down, watch where your going. The sky clears, when it needs to. There isn't a need to understand, unless its meant for you to understand.
I can tell you a few more things, you can spend all day and night here, debating with these guys who crack down on flawed scriptures day and night, and it will bring you back in to the same spot.
There is no other way to confirm the truth of scriptures until you know the Author for yourself, and for sure He can tell you what is true and what is not.
Trust me, you can spend all day trying to get into the greek, and hebrew, and all sorts of different methods of trying to understand and know the Truth of all things and be sure.
Yet it will get you no where. Heck, I mean the hebrews and the greeks half the time were confused, by what means would we ever think we would ever get it right?Here is a quote from Paul Cohen: http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachin….god.htm
“Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. He did not say that about His teachings. Therefore, you cannot absorb and manifest His teachings unless you have absorbed Him. That is why He said:
“I am the living bread come down out of Heaven. If a man eats this bread, he shall live forever. Moreover the bread which I will give is My flesh given for the life of the world…In most solemn truth I tell you…that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:51, 53 WNT).
The life is in Him, not in us, or in words on a page. Imitating Christ, the point of His appearing and ministry according to those whose beliefs we are examining, is really the way of false religion. It is false because it is dependent on, and powered by, man’s efforts at understanding, love, worship, and brotherhood, rather than the love and wisdom of God that comes from having His life. If mankind was up to the job, and had it within himself to do these things, why was a Savior sent to save him? Those attributing the power of godly imitation to man, and exercising a presumed spiritual authority based on the knowledge of that power, represent the very same self-righteous spirit that crucified the Christ.
Man naturally rejects God, preferring to keep his own counsel, which is why he needs the Savior in the first place. “Do-it-yourself” religion rejects the Savior (despite what it says) and, according to God, is thereby responsible for all the bloodshed on earth:”
If your trying to answer your own questions, than you already have the wrong answers. If you don't know, ask.
Dennison
Wow! Out of all scriptures, (or statements) given I seem to hit on one thing that brings out the judgmental part of some of you. You are quick to correct someone by one scripture or statement and not comment on any other scriptures. About man being spirit, soul, and body t8 ask “And is the spirit, soul, and body all separate persons.No.”
When someone dies the body no longer is here. It is put in the ground or put away some how. The spirit and soul live on. The body was not a separate person, just a earthly suite for life on the earth. When you are told not to eat certain food by the Doctor that you love to eat, do you not have to fight the urge to eat it. Does not your body crave certain foods? When temptation comes to you to do a sin that you had trouble with in the past, do you not have to encourage your self and quote the Word etc. to keep from doing this thing? Remember the words that “the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing. How about renewing the mind, strengthened in the inter man, though the outward man is perishing but the inward man is renewed day by day.
How many scriptures does it take to see that man is a spiritual being with a soul and lives in a body. All are one person, but each have a different appetites. The body craves comfort and food, the soul craved knowledge, (the soul is the mind will and emotions) and the spirit craves spiritual things. Have none of you ever struggled within yourself.
And how about God. Remember when Jesus being baptist ed, the Holy Spirit came down like a dove and the voice came from His Father?
Stop looking for a fight and look for something to learn if possible. I may not be right in your eyes, but I am comfortable after years of study in what I believe.
Remember that Jesus said Himself that a house divided will not stand.Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 16 2012,17:07) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 16 2012,10:12) Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 16 2012,01:56) Hi, Fully man and fully God.
Hi RichTuner, welcome to H-net!Do you consider man to be 100% “not God”? <– please answer
God bless
Ed J
Hi Rich,Will you P-L-E-A-S-E answer my question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED J, “Do you consider man to be 100% “not God”?
I'm not sure about your question. Do you mean man who is not born again or after one is born again. Again, the nature of a thing, (in this case man) is in it's seed. A man who is not born again has the seed and nature of Adam who died a spiritual death. When a man is born again he or she receives the nature of God, (eternal life). When receiving the word we partake of His nature, (if the nature of a thing is in the seed then the nature of God would be in His Word which is His seed).
If you believed this, what would be your answer to your question?Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 17 2012,11:51) ED J, “Do you consider man to be 100% “not God”?
I'm not sure about your question. Do you mean man who is not born again or after one is born again. Again, the nature of a thing, (in this case man) is in it's seed. A man who is not born again has the seed and nature of Adam who died a spiritual death. When a man is born again he or she receives the nature of God, (eternal life). When receiving the word we partake of His nature, (if the nature of a thing is in the seed then the nature of God would be in His Word which is His seed).
If you believed this, what would be your answer to your question?
Hi Rich,OK, lets turn it into two questions then…
Is man who is not born again 100% “not God”?
Is man who is born again 100% “not God”? …if no, then what % God do they become?Quote what would be your answer to your question? Don't know what you mean?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J, Why are fixated on a percentage? What would satisfy you?
I don't think the bible gives any indication at all on a percentage. When God made man he put something in him that He didn't in any other creation, even Angels. Man was the only one that was in the “image” of Himself. Although I believe the “breath of life” is different than “the life” we receive when born again. It isn't any thing to do with percentage, it's our spiritual state. Before being born again we carried the nature of Satan. Jesus said to the people of His day that they were “of their father the devil”. Those same people who were born again after Jesus now had God as their father. Can you put a percentage on that? You are either 100% saved or 100% not.SimplyForgiven, I don't go looking for other writings on the subject of Trinity or much of anything else. The word “Rapture” in not in the bible, but many believe in it. The word is used because it means “being caught up”. Paul teaches about that in the last days. I know about the problem of the teaching of Trinity, but while I don't believe there are 3 separate Gods I believe in the concept. I believe in the rapture, not because it is taught as such, but in concept. As stated before when Jesus was being baptist ed we see the Holy Spirit and the Father with Jesus. Again I don't believe these are separate Gods, but the concept, (of God having the qualities found in 1John 5:7 are present).
There are some things one can learn from other writing of old, but before all these writings men learned of God through His Word only. Paul got all his revelation directly from Jesus as he stated. Why do we need to put out trust in other mens writings over God's Word. All things we need to know can be found in His Word without any proof or conformation from man. You can be under a false teacher and find many who will believe them for what ever reason.
My views are founded in the Word only, not in any ones views that convinced me outside the Word.
I don't know all things, but what I believe I have studied for many years using only the Word to reveal and confirm it's self. I have seen in this forum people who quote from the ends of the earth what and when teachings started, an endless debate that never gets to the truth. That would fulfill the scripture that said “ever learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”.Hi Rich,
In math you can't have 200%? (Matthew 1:18 / Matthew 1:20 / Luke 1:35) (Luke 10:30-37)
Jesus lineage explained
“Son of Man”: 25%; Mary's mother's lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5, 1:36)
“Son of Man”: 25%: Mary's father's lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
“Son of God”: 50%: Jesus' Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)At birth: Jesus was 50% HolySpirit(God)(Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25% Levite(Priest) and 25% Judah(King)!
At baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…
Mother Father
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 17 2012,19:03) Ed J, Why are fixated on a percentage? What would satisfy you?
I don't think the bible gives any indication at all on a percentage. When God made man he put something in him that He didn't in any other creation, even Angels. Man was the only one that was in the “image” of Himself. Although I believe the “breath of life” is different than “the life” we receive when born again. It isn't any thing to do with percentage, it's our spiritual state. Before being born again we carried the nature of Satan. Jesus said to the people of His day that they were “of their father the devil”. Those same people who were born again after Jesus now had God as their father. Can you put a percentage on that? You are either 100% saved or 100% not.SimplyForgiven, I don't go looking for other writings on the subject of Trinity or much of anything else. The word “Rapture” in not in the bible, but many believe in it. The word is used because it means “being caught up”. Paul teaches about that in the last days. I know about the problem of the teaching of Trinity, but while I don't believe there are 3 separate Gods I believe in the concept. I believe in the rapture, not because it is taught as such, but in concept. As stated before when Jesus was being baptist ed we see the Holy Spirit and the Father with Jesus. Again I don't believe these are separate Gods, but the concept, (of God having the qualities found in 1John 5:7 are present).
There are some things one can learn from other writing of old, but before all these writings men learned of God through His Word only. Paul got all his revelation directly from Jesus as he stated. Why do we need to put out trust in other mens writings over God's Word. All things we need to know can be found in His Word without any proof or conformation from man. You can be under a false teacher and find many who will believe them for what ever reason.
My views are founded in the Word only, not in any ones views that convinced me outside the Word.
I don't know all things, but what I believe I have studied for many years using only the Word to reveal and confirm it's self. I have seen in this forum people who quote from the ends of the earth what and when teachings started, an endless debate that never gets to the truth. That would fulfill the scripture that said “ever learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”.Quote My views are founded in the Word only, not in any ones views that convinced me outside the Word. hmmm,hmmmm
in front you right ,but it is the back that's scares me ,
Ed J,
I'm not trying to use math to explain Jesus. No matter what lineage His mother or grandfather was, both were from Adam. They both shared in humanity, (human race and nature). It seems a hard thing to get through to people, but again, all of us has the nature of Adam passed down through his seed. Mary and her father and his father etc. The spiritual nature, as well as the natural is in the seed. Jesus was not conceived by mans seed, but God's seed which is His Word. Mary said to the Angel, “be it unto me according to your word, (which was God's Word through the Angel)”.
Jesus was “man” by virtue of being conceived in the womb of a woman who is of the nature of Adam, but the seed was not of man but “God” making Him a part of God's nature.
The original seed that made man, (when God spoke and said “let us make man”) spoke again into Mary and used His Word, (seed) to sow into mankind through woman and Jesus was conceived.
When Peter said in 1Peter 1:23 that we were born again, not by corruptible seed, (which would be Adams) but by incorruptible seed which is the Word of God.
Once again, the nature of a thing is in it's seed. the nature of God is in His Word or seed. 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, this tells us that His Word is His nature.
So if the seed of God,(His nature) gives conception in a woman who got her nature from Adam, what would you expect?
once again Jesus spoke about the fact that “He was troubled in spirit and His soul was exceedingly sorrowful”. We know He had a body, so like man who is spirit, soul, and body
Jesus was said to be a partaker of the “likeness” of men and sinful flesh.
Also in Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.Richtuner do you believe this scripture, yes or no?
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Quote Richtuner do you believe this scripture, yes or no? John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I'm guessing that you have some other way of looking at this scripture. Jesus was ask several questions just so the people could catch Him in His own word to find some fault, but yes I believe that scripture.
Now for the Uh Hu…………..as for SimplyForgiven,
You have totally lost sight on the statement when I said Jesus was a product of “the life, not the breath of life” I think anyone else would have understood what I meant. Jesus said in Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Noticed the word Jesus said “given”. Who and when did he receive this “Life” and what kind of life was He talking about.
One of the great teachings of Jesus was in Joh_4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh_4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Was the life Jesus had like ours or the God life, everlasting life. Go to Johns Gospel about the crucification and notice what John said that Jesus uttered from the cross in Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Interesting, was He talking about a physical thirst or did He that time mean what He was talking about in the scriptures above.
Does this mean that when you believe in Jesus you receive life?
Is so, then you believe you did not have it before you received it. It wouldn't be wrong to say then that you were a product of Adam before, but now you are a product of God. A product of Death, now of Life, product of darkness, now of light.Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 17 2012,18:03) SimplyForgiven, I don't go looking for other writings on the subject of Trinity or much of anything else. The word “Rapture” in not in the bible, but many believe in it. The word is used because it means “being caught up”. Paul teaches about that in the last days. I know about the problem of the teaching of Trinity, but while I don't believe there are 3 separate Gods I believe in the concept. I believe in the rapture, not because it is taught as such, but in concept. As stated before when Jesus was being baptist ed we see the Holy Spirit and the Father with Jesus. Again I don't believe these are separate Gods, but the concept, (of God having the qualities found in 1John 5:7 are present).
There are some things one can learn from other writing of old, but before all these writings men learned of God through His Word only. Paul got all his revelation directly from Jesus as he stated. Why do we need to put out trust in other mens writings over God's Word. All things we need to know can be found in His Word without any proof or conformation from man. You can be under a false teacher and find many who will believe them for what ever reason.
My views are founded in the Word only, not in any ones views that convinced me outside the Word.
I don't know all things, but what I believe I have studied for many years using only the Word to reveal and confirm it's self. I have seen in this forum people who quote from the ends of the earth what and when teachings started, an endless debate that never gets to the truth. That would fulfill the scripture that said “ever learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”.
Hi Rich,Well the best thing I Can tell you is that you hold on to words that have no scriptural bases, and already have a doctrine of their own.
For example I believe that Jesus is God, yet you don't see me promoting the Trinity. I let the word go, because it isn't true.
I also believe in “a rapture” but I don't believe in the typical concept of it nor the teachings about it.
Another thing I can tell you is that God always confirms His word.
When you say “Word” what do you mean, the scripture or God's literal voice, word?
And in the end,
All I did is posted an article that actually may support what you believe.Dennison
Rich,
Quote You have totally lost sight on the statement when I said Jesus was a product of “the life, not the breath of life” I think anyone else would have understood what I meant.
I'm not sure what your talking actually.
Where are you from?Quote Go to Johns Gospel about the crucification and notice what John said that Jesus uttered from the cross in Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Interesting, was He talking about a physical thirst or did He that time mean what He was talking about in the scriptures above.
Actually Jesus was talking about a physical thirst.
Psalm 69:21
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.So he may complete the scriptures.
Here is another example:
Matthew 27:35
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.Psalm 22:18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.It was about the prophecy that was fortold about the Son of God, the Messiah.
So no, you can't take it out of context and assume he was talking about the “water of life”.Quote Does this mean that when you believe in Jesus you receive life?
Is so, then you believe you did not have it before you received it. It wouldn't be wrong to say then that you were a product of Adam before, but now you are a product of God. A product of Death, now of Life, product of darkness, now of light.I see what your saying, but that's not what He is reffering to. Jesus says He is the bread of life, which means He is life, and also claims so.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 16 2012,03:19) In the past i never rebuttaled against Trinitarians nor pick at them too much for the sake of survival (Shutup Mike.)…………..
Okay D. Just this once I will shut up.
Welcome to HN, Rich.
I've been reading your posts, and decided to summarize my thoughts on the Trinity Doctrine:We have but one God, the Father. That one God has a Son named Jesus, whom He sent into the world to die as His sacrificial lamb.
So………………………………..
Unless Jesus can be the very God he is the Son of; and unless Jesus has a Son named Jesus, then it seems obvious to me that Jesus is not the Most High God of gods – but the Son OF that One – just like the scriptures clearly and many times teach.
I don't see the need to add all the mystery teachings into it. There is one Almighty God, and He has a Son and Servant named Jesus.
peace,
mikeQuote (Richtuner @ Oct. 19 2012,06:42) Quote Richtuner do you believe this scripture, yes or no? John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I'm guessing that you have some other way of looking at this scripture. Jesus was ask several questions just so the people could catch Him in His own word to find some fault, but yes I believe that scripture.
Now for the Uh Hu…………...
Okay, you believe that scripture. That means you do not believe that Jesus is God. Now I know where you stand on that subject. Just an easy way to establish your stance without having to read everything.
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