The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 05 2012,18:56)

Kerwin………..Glad to see your back and felling better brother.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene

Gene,

I am glad God revealed his grace in me by allowing me to come back for a time.

March 6, 2012 at 4:47 am#283077

http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_john/5.htm

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,19:13)

Kathy,

The arguments are convincing to some but never the less the majority of experts are not convinced. I am not an expert but I know enough to be highly skeptical about any translation that has translated by only one man. For reasons I do not know there is a limited number of English versions of the Peshitta.

As I stated earlier, the oldest manuscript available is a Fifth Century Copy. It probably existed earlier but its popularity was so low that no manuscripts have survived. I have no idea how the 2nd Century date of origin was obtained.

It is a canon and canonization did start in the middle of the 2nd century with Marcion.

Hi Kerwin,
The Peshitta is available for you to analysize as well as the interlinear of two translators here, just click on the tabs.

It is fine to be skeptical but we can't just disregard the evidence in that book and the fact that Aramaic WAS the language that Jesus and the disciples spoke.

More and more historical writings are found and will be found with new excavations or even by chance. God will restore the truth that the apostles knew.

I have been meaning to ask you why we can and should be a bond-servant of Christ if we are not to be a bond-servant to a man? See here:

1 Cor 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men.

Colossians 4:12 NAS
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bond-slave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

This shows that Jesus is not just a mere man like us or it wouldn't be a good thing to be His slave.

I hope you are having a good day,
Kathi

March 6, 2012 at 10:39 pm#283221

http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_john/5.htm

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2012,09:47)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,19:13)

Kathy,

It is a canon and canonization did start in the middle of the 2nd century with Marcion.

Hi Kerwin,
The Peshitta is available for you to analysize as well as the interlinear of two translators here, just click on the tabs.

It is fine to be skeptical but we can't just disregard the evidence in that book and the fact that Aramaic WAS the language that Jesus and the disciples spoke.

More and more historical writings are found and will be found with new excavations or even by chance. God will restore the truth that the apostles knew.

I have been meaning to ask you why we can and should be a bond-servant of Christ if we are not to be a bond-servant to a man? See here:

This shows that Jesus is not just a mere man like us or it wouldn't be a good thing to be His slave.

I hope you are having a good day,
Kathi

Kathi,

You can either be a slave of Satan or of Jesus. Take a look at these passages.

John 8

New International Version (NIV)

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:6

New International Version (NIV)
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
Footnotes:

Romans 6:6 Or be rendered powerless

Romans 6

New International Version (NIV)

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

b] Romans 6:23 Or through

March 10, 2012 at 6:05 am#283961

Participant

Hi Kerwin,
I know we can be slaves of Jesus and that is what we should be. I was pointing out that according to you, Jesus is just a man and the scripture says that we are not to be a slave of a man.

It is just another verse that opposes your doctrine.

Kathi

March 10, 2012 at 11:55 pm#284092

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2012,11:05)

Hi Kerwin,
I know we can be slaves of Jesus and that is what we should be. I was pointing out that according to you, Jesus is just a man and the scripture says that we are not to be a slave of a man.

It is just another verse that opposes your doctrine.

Kathi

Kathi,

Where does scripture state believers are not to be a slave to a man. Offhand, I remember those that tell a slave to serve his master as if serving the Anointed.

Being a slave to doing all God commands is being a slave to Christ. Scripture does not teach us not to be a slave to all God teaches.

March 12, 2012 at 12:30 am#284305

Participant

Kerwin,
you asked:

Quote

Where does scripture state believers are not to be a slave to a man.

1 Cor 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men.

Also, Kerwin, who is the Lord of all?

March 12, 2012 at 1:37 am#284319

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 12 2012,06:30)

Kerwin,
you asked:

Quote

Where does scripture state believers are not to be a slave to a man.

Also, Kerwin, who is the Lord of all?

Kathi,

1 Corinthians 7

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 Were you called while a slave? [l]Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather [m]do that. 22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

What do you think it means when he also teaches “each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.”

March 14, 2012 at 4:18 am#284782

Participant

Kerwin,
The verse means that if you are a slave to a man, do not seek to be released when God calls you to faith in Him. If He calls you when you are not a slave to a man, then He says to not become a slave to men. Your theory doesn't line up with this verse because you believe we are to be a slave of the man Jesus. His identity is not merely a man but the Son of God…our Lord and Savior.

Again, please tell me who you say is the Lord of all?

Thanks,
Kathi

July 4, 2012 at 3:41 pm#304943

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2011,09:16)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 25 2006,08:05)

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? (seems to indicate a start)

Brilliant point Wm.

I wonder what Kathi, Keith and Jack think about that. (Oh, and D-Linquent, so he doesn't feel left out if he is still around.)

“God the Son” couldn't have ALWAYS BEEN “God the Son” if there was a time that the Father BECAME his Father.

mike

and keep in mind that the days of God are like a thousandth years

October 15, 2012 at 2:56 pm#316255

Richtuner

Participant

Hi, I would like to chime in on this subject on the Trinity. I found some things on this by accident when I was on a quest to understand Redemption.
Abram was called out to start a new nation that had only one God. And through this one nation would come a savior to deliver all mankind from the fall. All through the Old Testament God spoke of Himself as the one and only true God who made all things. He said if there were other Gods he would know about them, but there is only one and that is the God who created all thing including Man and who called out Abram, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7) I have been criticized for using the scripture in 1John 5:7 because it is in italics. That does not bother me it fits with other scriptures or doctrine. God set this system up, (the worlds way of reproducing) by seed, (Gen 1:12). It is a universal truth that all things reproduce by seed not just trees and plants etc. It is evident that God’s Word is seed according to the scriptures. God spoke and created all things in heaven and earth. (It is noted that the Spirit was always there with the Word when spoken, or when men was to speak the Word of God if it was to come to pass).
Man is a triune being, Spirit, soul and body. God spoke, God breathed, and God formed.
To identify or explain man is to look at what makes up mankind. We are a spirit being who has a soul and lives in a body yet we are one. To understand God, (and the trinity) we also see that God is first seen and defined as Father. All life that has ever existed or ever will comes from God. He is the Father of all living things.
He does this by seed, or His Word just like He set this earth up, seedtime and harvest. His Spirit is the power, (or life energy, source etc.) to give the seed power to reproduce and become what is spoken. We all know now that seed has DNA that instructs what the seed is to produce. God’s Word is no different. God says, let there be an Acorn tree and the Acorn tree is created with the seed in it to reproduce after its own kind. In John 1:1 when it says “in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God” has the same meaning as “your word is you”. You are as good as your word is. If you are a liar, by your words you will be known. Jesus said that out of the abundance of the heart, (spirit) you will speak. An honest man will be known by his words not just by his deads.
There is only one God, but can be identified as Father, Word and Spirit, (what I believe is the true way of looking at the subject of Trinity). Now when it comes to who is Jesus, we can see that He had to be a part of the human race but not of the human nature. God breathed into Adam the breath of life. We are all a product of the “breath” of life through the seed of Adam. Jesus according to John 5:26 is a product of “the life”. He was a product of the human race, but not the human nature qualifying Him to be a sinless savoir for all mankind. When God wanted to bring Jesus into the world, He once again spoke His word, not like before when He created Adam, but into Mary, (the original seed that created man and the seed in man to reproduce mankind, which was corrupted through the fall), spoke again and Jesus was conceived.
Fully man and fully God. We got our nature from Adam and Jesus got His from His Father, God.
While we were created in the image of God according to 1Cor. 15:49 we did not bare that image because of the fall. In Heb. 1:3 Jesus was the “express image of God”. Jesus was not just a man nor was He God from before creation, (but the Word was). God is not conceived, God cannot die a spiritual death or a physical death, yet Jesus was conceived and died a spiritual death and died physically on the cross. The Bible said that by man came sin and by “man” came righteousness.
Much studying on this has brought me to a place where I can see redemption much more clearly. Other Scriptures can be looked at to confirm and expound on this, but this was the springboard that gave me the foundation to understand Redemption.
Redemption is accomplished by a man who had no sin but who was a product of the human race, (not of the nature) in order to be the Lamb of God without sin or spot. This is the mystery of Righteousness, God manifested in the flesh.

October 15, 2012 at 5:46 pm#316262

Participant

HI RT

welcome to HN,

Quote

Man is a triune being, Spirit, soul and body. God spoke, God breathed, and God formed.

this is a opinion not the reality ,the same with ;God spoke, God breathed, and God formed,it should be God think ,then spoke with whom if he was alone ,being true means that you have considered all of the knowledge there is in scriptures not only what fit your opinions.

Quote

Fully man and fully God. We got our nature from Adam and Jesus got His from His Father, God.

this is not in scriptures but a wishful view of the believers in the trinity,HOW COULD CHRIST BE 100% OF BOTH WORLD AND WHY WOULD GOD SEND HIS SON WHEN IT IS HE THAT COMES DOWN

NOW SINSE MAN AS BEEN CREATED TO THE IMAGE OF ” OUR ” WHO EVER HIS THAT :
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

SO COULD YOU TELL ME NOW IF GOD HIS A “MAN” AND WHO ARE THE “OUR ” IN VERSE 26

AND PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IS IT WHEN GOD SAYS THE “IMAGE”

AND ALSO PLEASE TELL ME WHAT HIS THE “IMAGE ” IN Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

IN ADAM IT SEEMS TO A VISIBLE IMAGE
IN CHRIST IT SEEMS TO A INVISIBLE IMAGE

hope to see your answers

October 15, 2012 at 6:47 pm#316263

Richtuner

Participant

There are many scriptures but here are a few.
1Co_2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
We don't need any to prove we have a body. Man is spirit, soul and body. Even Jesus spoke of this truth about himself.
Mar 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
This is hardly my opinion. Read Gen. about the creation. God spoke, God formed man out of the dust and it said that God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul. How can this be my opinion?
Who is speaking in these verses,
Luk 12:19 AndI will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Psa 34:2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
Psa_42:5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.
I should not have to go into our spirits, there should be enough knowledge about that.
As far as the image goes, again read 1Cor. 15:49. It says we have not bore the image of the heavenly but of the earthly. Adam bore the image of God until the fall, after that all mankind has followed in that image because of the seed that reproduces after it's own kind. A Vail came over Adam's spirit and is seen in the Vail that covered the Holy of Holies which was rent from top to bottom when Jesus died. All who come to Jesus is circumcised in spirit, or the foreskin of the heart which is the Vail. Physical circumcision is the shadow of the true, spiritual circumcision.
A whole lot is to be said, but I must go to work. You do need to think about what you reply not knowing these things.

October 15, 2012 at 7:06 pm#316264

Participant

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 16 2012,12:47)

if this his your answers to me ,???

I have no clue how to understand those scriptures it is so vague that a full train can go through without touching anything

what is it that you say answered what ,

October 15, 2012 at 11:12 pm#316283

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Richtuner @ Oct. 16 2012,01:56)

Hi,

Fully man and fully God.

Hi RichTuner, welcome to H-net!

Do you consider man to be 100% “not God”? <– please answer

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 16, 2012 at 1:00 am#316296

Richtuner

Participant

terraricca, you fulfill the scriptures 1Cor. 2:14 and 2Peter 3:16.
Ed3, To understand what man is, we must consider that it comes by virtue of the seed. Again in Gen. it says the seed is within the thing to reproduce after its kind. When man sinned against God his seed became corrupted, (1Peter 1:23) meaning all who came into the earth by way of birth share in Adams sin. The bible says we all sinned when Adam sinned. When Adam died we all died. Although I was not borne yet, I share his sin by virtue of seed. Even so I was not around when Jesus died, but the bible says I died with Him and was raised with Him. How? By virtue of seed. That is the seed of faith. Being born again by the Word through faith. What Jesus accomplished I did in Him.
I was a product of Adam, of the breath of life. I was a sinner. I partook of his nature by virtue of his seed. Identified was his race and nature. Jesus on the other hand was conceived by the Word, which is God's seed. What God is, Jesus was by virtue of the seed that gave Him life. He said in in John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; He said Himself that God gave Him life. How? When He was conceived by God's Word, (seed). Jesus is a product of the human race without being a part of the human nature which is corrupted. He had the very nature of God. that's fully man and fully God. Even Peter says in 2Peter 1:4 we partake of God's divine nature through His Word.
The nature of a thing is in it's seed. Partake of the seed and receive it's nature.

October 16, 2012 at 1:52 am#316301