The Trinity Doctrine

[shimmer]

Cavedave, good to see you are sticking around a while longer.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (cavedave @ Feb. 22 2012,16:37)

If we would stick to the idea of God being one and go from there we would in a short time begin to grow by leaps and bounds. Trouble is we also become less popular with the status quo.

Bravo!

[Lightenup]

Quote (cavedave @ Feb. 22 2012,17:37)

It may be a good idea to not take one scripture and try to make a picture out of it that it is not really painting. In the above taking these scriptures to say Jesus created all things in the sweet by and by at first looks like it may be a good idea to support the way we have been told it must have been. When in truth we must take all scripture as a whole to see what is really being said. So many just see Jesus at the cross jesus after the cross and jesus in the past as the word of God all as the same. Like he was a man in heaven or the unseen and God some how shrunk him down and put Him in  Mary and now He still is this physcial man up in heaven. To the natural mind all this seems to make sense. The truth is much greater. If we would stick to the idea of God being one and go from there we would in a short time begin to grow by leaps and bounds. Trouble is we also become less popular with the status quo. Oh any way just some things to think about.

Well Cavedave, I suppose that is how you say thank you for showing me where the Bible says that. If you don't accept the passage then your problem is with your understanding and not that the Bible doesn't say it. You are right that it is a good idea to have supporting scriptures…there are.

Kathi

[Marlin1]

Quote

Hi Marlin, Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,        “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,        AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;        THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU        WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And,        “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,        AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;        AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;        LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.        BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,        AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Blessings, Kathi

Thanks Kathi, great quotes.  Looks to have come from
Psalm 102:25 Psalm 102:12

Looks to prove that Jesus couldn't be a little god.  If He were He could of only accomplished the above through the Father.  But it says that He laid the foundations of the world. AMEN.  The one and only God, of which the LOGOS came forth,  The Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless
Marlin

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
Yes the WORD OF GOD did.
And When the Word had been made flesh John touched him.

[cavedave]

And it also says that when we see him Jesus as he really is we will be like him.
So many are waiting for a physcial return and so never change and experince the great indwelling of Gods presence and all that comes with that.
Becoming one with God just as the man Jesus was one with God and just as his Fayher worked through Jesus he will now work thourgh all who are truly His.
This is a growing process as we learn the same way Jesus did we will become just like Him because now God will dwell in us as the seed the word now is our life.
What could be greater then this? So many think rescued by a man flying out of the sky is greater then the God of all creation now being your life.
So many our not willing to loose their natural life and church ideas to gain eternal life in Christ now.
Because just like Jesus then they will only be popular with those who are truly His and all those who have gone before.
Who are now on thier tip toes saying go man go.
My brothers and sisters let us encourage each other to winn this race and go on and take hold of the prize of the high calling of God that is in Christ Jesus.

[kerwin]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 23 2012,11:36)

Quote Hi Marlin, Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,        “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,        AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;        THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU        WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And,        “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,        AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;        AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;        LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.        BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,        AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Blessings, Kathi Thanks Kathi, great quotes.  Looks to have come from Psalm 102:25 Psalm 102:12 Looks to prove that Jesus couldn't be a little god.  If He were He could of only accomplished the above through the Father.  But it says that He laid the foundations of the world. AMEN.  The one and only God, of which the LOGOS came forth,  The Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless Marlin

Marlin,

Various interpretation methods of Scripture were used by the writers of Scripture.

Here is a treatise on it.

[Marlin1]

Kerwin, One scripture speaking of the Son and the other speaking of the Father. Selfsame Spirit.

Marlin

[kerwin]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 24 2012,03:37)

Kerwin,  One scripture speaking of the Son and the other speaking of the Father.  Selfsame Spirit. Marlin

Marlin,

Jesus Anointed and God are one in Spirit but my point is that Jesus laid the foundations of the new creation just as his Father laid the foundations of the old.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 23 2012,00:36)

Quote Hi Marlin, Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,        “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,        AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;        THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU        WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And,        “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,        AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;        AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;        LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.        BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,        AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Blessings, Kathi Thanks Kathi, great quotes.  Looks to have come from Psalm 102:25 Psalm 102:12 Looks to prove that Jesus couldn't be a little god.  If He were He could of only accomplished the above through the Father.  But it says that He laid the foundations of the world. AMEN.  The one and only God, of which the LOGOS came forth,  The Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless Marlin

Marlin,
You are welcome! However, this passage indicates there are two great Gods, one speaking about the other and referring to the other as LORD (YHVH).

Blessings,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
So the God OF Jesus anointed Jesus.

You will know from Heb 7.7 that the LESSER is blessed by the GREATER so how does your two equal GODs sit with that ?

[Marlin1]

Quote

You are welcome! However, this passage indicates there are two great Gods, one speaking about the other and referring to the other as LORD (YHVH).

Kathi,  Don't you see,  These speak of the very same God creating all things.  The very same Spirit.

Marlin

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2012,07:55)

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 23 2012,00:36) Quote Hi Marlin, Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,        “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,        AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;        THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU        WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And,        “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,        AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;        AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;        LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.        BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,        AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Blessings, Kathi Thanks Kathi, great quotes.  Looks to have come from Psalm 102:25 Psalm 102:12 Looks to prove that Jesus couldn't be a little god.  If He were He could of only accomplished the above through the Father.  But it says that He laid the foundations of the world. AMEN.  The one and only God, of which the LOGOS came forth,  The Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless Marlin Marlin, You are welcome! However, this passage indicates there are two great Gods, one speaking about the other and referring to the other as LORD (YHVH). Blessings, Kathi

Lightenup,

You misunderstand these passages as there is only one God and the writers of that time used more than one way to interpret Scripture.   Here is a composition on some interpretation methods used.

Psalm 45:6,7  using a literal translation are two verses from a wedding song addressed to a king and his bride.  It was probably speaking of David as the Sons of Korah are credited by Scripture with writing it but nevertheless using Typological Interpretation the writer of Hebrews applies it to Jesus.

Psalm 102:25-27 using a Midrashic Interpretation is a prophecy of Jesus speaking to God.  The writer of Hebrews is not using that method to call Jesus God but is instead using a Typological Interpretation as Jesus is to the New Creation as God is to the Old Creation.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 23 2012,22:38)

Quote You are welcome! However, this passage indicates there are two great Gods, one speaking about the other and referring to the other as LORD (YHVH). Kathi,  Don't you see,  These speak of the very same God creating all things.  The very same Spirit. Marlin

Marlin,
The NT speaks of two:

1 Cor 8:yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 22 2012,23:36)

Looks to prove that Jesus couldn't be a little god.

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

God Almighty does not have a God of His own, Marlin.  Jesus does.  Jehovah is the God OF gods, and Jesus is one of the gods Jehovah is the God OF.

But, he is higher than all the other “little gods”, if that makes you feel any better. He is second in command of the entire universe.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2012,02:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2012,07:55) Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 23 2012,00:36) Quote Hi Marlin, Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says,        “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,        AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;        THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU        WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And,        “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,        AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;        AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;        LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.        BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,        AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Blessings, Kathi Thanks Kathi, great quotes.  Looks to have come from Psalm 102:25 Psalm 102:12 Looks to prove that Jesus couldn't be a little god.  If He were He could of only accomplished the above through the Father.  But it says that He laid the foundations of the world. AMEN.  The one and only God, of which the LOGOS came forth,  The Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless Marlin Marlin, You are welcome! However, this passage indicates there are two great Gods, one speaking about the other and referring to the other as LORD (YHVH). Blessings, Kathi Lightenup, You misunderstand these passages as there is only one God and the writers of that time used more than one way to interpret Scripture.   Here is a composition on some interpretation methods used. Psalm 45:6,7  using a literal translation are two verses from a wedding song addressed to a king and his bride.  It was probably speaking of David as the Sons of Korah are credited by Scripture with writing it but nevertheless using Typological Interpretation the writer of Hebrews applies it to Jesus. Psalm 102:25-27 using a Midrashic Interpretation is a prophecy of Jesus speaking to God.  The writer of Hebrews is not using that method to call Jesus God but is instead using a Typological Interpretation as Jesus is to the New Creation as God is to the Old Creation.

Kerwin,
At least you see that you have to deny that it reads like it does in order to maintain your theory.

Can you admit that if indeed, and I say 'if' for your benefit, that the passage in question is telling us that the Son laid the foundation of the original earth and that the Son spread out the original heavens, then you have been very wrong in what you teach and thus a false teacher and one who has been denying the deity of Christ?

If I am misunderstanding these verses then many misunderstand them the same way that I do all the way back to the early history of the Church and all of the same must have misunderstood passages like:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

Heb 1:2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

The passage that we are discussing in regards to the Son creating the original world is supported by other passages as you can see.

Kerwin, did you know that the unbelieving are blinded by satan?

2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

So, Kerwin, one of us is blinded apparently because we see completely different things here. I will go with the scriptures on this.

I do wish you all the goodness of God, Kerwin,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Wooah..

Denying the deity of Christ is evil and shows we are blinded by satan?
We worship his God, the God of Israel.
God is one.[Gal3.20]

[Ed J]

Quote (Marlin1 @ Feb. 23 2012,06:21)

Quote The scripture does tell us that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the works of His hands. Kathi, where does it say this? Quote Shalom Marlin, You weren't actually saying this? Hi Ed J,  No I wasn't, I was asking Kathi for the scripture where it says the SON did those things.  She hasn't responded yet. God Bless Marlin

Hi Marlin,

Thank you for straightening this out.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (cavedave @ Feb. 23 2012,20:37)

And it also says that when we see him Jesus as he really is we will be like him. So many are waiting for a physcial return and so never change and experince the great indwelling of Gods presence and all that comes with that. Becoming one with God just as the man Jesus was one with God and just as his Fayher worked through Jesus he will now work thourgh all who are truly His. This is a growing process as we learn the same way Jesus did we will become just like Him because now God will dwell in us as the seed the word now is our life. What could be greater then this? So many think rescued by a man flying out of the sky is greater then the God of all creation now being your life. So many our not willing to loose their natural life and church ideas to gain eternal life in Christ now. Because just like Jesus then they will only be popular with those who are truly His and all those who have gone before. Who are now on thier tip toes saying go man go. My brothers and sisters let us encourage each other to winn this race and go on and take hold of the prize of the high calling of God that is in Christ Jesus.

Hi CaveDave,

Good post!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Lightenup,

Quote

Can you admit that if indeed, and I say 'if' for your benefit, that the passage in question is telling us that the Son laid the foundation of the original earth and that the Son spread out the original heavens, then you have been very wrong in what you teach and thus a false teacher and one who has been denying the deity of Christ?

I understand the logical reasoning that Psalms 102:25-27 is speaking of Jahovah and that the writer of Hebrews treats it as if it speaks of Jesus. Those two premises lead you to conclude Jesus is God.  If you take it further and advance the hypothesis that the Psalms is Jesus calling on Jahovah then you have two Gods that are also one God.

That conclusion is flawed because it assumes there is only one way that the teachers of the New Testiment Period interpreted the Old Testiment.  That assumption is known to be false.  The difference in interpretation methods by the teachers of that age leads to a number of possible interpretations in this time of which only one is true.

There are contradictions in your teaching that do not exist in my own.  In addition my christology is the same as the Jewish religion except I believe Jesus is the Messiah and has already come Jews in their ignorance (lack of knowledge) believe neither.

Jesus is not the deity because the one true deity cannot be tempted by evil while the Anointed was tempted by evil even as we are.  It is necessary for our salvation to believe God cannot be tempted and that Jesus was.

Quote

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Here you are using an Midrashic Interpretation method while I use a litteral one.  I am not sure of your reasons for doing so.

Quote

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

We disagree on which creation this passage is speaking of.  If the old creation was created through him and for him then their would be no need for a new and those that fell from grace would have damnation facing them.

Quote

Heb 1:2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Litterally interpreted this passage states God spoke through in these last days while he spoke through others previously.  The second clause speaks of Jesus being apointed heir of all things and fulfilling the ages.  How could he inherit something he already had?

Quote

Kerwin, did you know that the unbelieving are blinded by satan?

I understand that those that do not seek to be like God in true righteousness and holiness are blinded by their love of sin.  I also understand that God promised those that seek his righteousness would obtain it through faith in his Son.  In order to believe that promise you must believe it can accomplished.  I choose to believe that a human being can and will stop sinning if they mature in their belief.

[Author]

Posts