The Trinity Doctrine

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,13:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 04 2011,13:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2011,11:32) Again, when you can logically explain how something can “come through” someone “without coming from” that same someone then you may have a point. Tertullian Against Praxeas, 9: For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as he himself confesses, “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm his inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and he who is begotten is another. He, too, who sends is one, and he who is sent is another, and He, again, who makes is one, and he through whom the thing is made is another. This whole letter is just simple common sense, Keith.  When are you going to get some?   You act as if the words “from” and “through” mean the same thing.  They don't. Mike Are all things in “Jesus hands” or not? A simple Yes of No will suffice. If you agree with scripture and say yes then explain how we recieve anything unless it comes FROM Jesus hands? Do you agree with the scriptures Mike? Who is it that gives us “Eternal Life” Mike? John 10:28 WJ

WJ

this is God ;Da 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”

this is Christ;1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Jn 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Christ received is powers from God but God did not Give him all his own powers ,only to do what Christ has to be doing

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Hi Keith,

Although Pierre has addressed your question confidently and scripturally, I will wait until you answer my points/questions from the third and fourth posts on this page before addressing yours.

You seem to have blown them off completely.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,19:03)

Hi Keith, Although Pierre has addressed your question confidently and scripturally, I will wait until you answer my points/questions from the third and fourth posts on this page before addressing yours. You seem to have blown them off completely. mike

Ahh but wait Mike

You didn't address my point before your points in the 3rd post of this page when I said…

“Again, when you can logically explain how something can “come through” someone “without coming from“ that same someone then you may have a point.

Remember Mike all things are IN JESUS HANDS so that means “all things come from him” and by him all things consist. In fact it is through or by him we exist.”

Instead you created a diversion with your next 2 post.

Whats a matter Mike, cat got your tongue?  

Blessings!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,18:51)

Christ received is powers from God but God did not Give him all his own powers ,only to do what Christ has to be doing

Hi All

Peirre is not speaking the Biblical truth for the scriptures say…

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER” is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

“ALL THINGS that the Father hath ARE MINE”: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16

The Father loveth the Son, “and hath given ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS”. John 3:35

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

BTW All

Mike said that Peirres comment above is scriptural! So that post is for you also Mike.

Just saying!

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,09:26)

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,18:51) Christ received is powers from God but God did not Give him all his own powers ,only to do what Christ has to be doing Hi All Peirre is not speaking the Biblical truth for the scriptures say… And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER” is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18 “ALL THINGS that the Father hath ARE MINE”: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16 The Father loveth the Son, “and hath given ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS”. John 3:35 WJ

WJ

take easy you really do not think that a few verses will be it ,

i still have a truck load of them;

1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

you see this verse explain why Christ has received all those powers,
in heaven because of the corrup angels,on earth because of corruption of men.

Jn 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love

Jn 16:14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
Jn 16:15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

you see in verse col1;19 that it is God that was please with him,

Christ was the first of all creation and when corruption became a fact it was then Christ works to bring back all things under his father rule so that there would be no other rule than love of God,

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Peirre

The point is you said…

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,18:51)

Christ received is powers from God “but God did not Give him all his own powers” ,only to do what Christ has to be doing

That is not a true statement according to the scriptures I gave you above.

Are ALL things in Jesus hands NOW or not?

Does Jesus have ALL Authority and Power NOW or not?

Instead of creating a diversion of what will be in the future just answer the questions and the points or retract your unbiblical statement.

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,15:11)

Peirre The point is you said… Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,18:51) Christ received is powers from God “but God did not Give him all his own powers” ,only to do what Christ has to be doing That is not a true statement according to the scriptures I gave you above. Are ALL things in Jesus hands NOW or not? Does Jesus have ALL Authority and Power NOW or not? Instead of creating a diversion of what will be in the future just answer the questions and the points or retract your unbiblical statement. WJ

WJ

all powers to someone lessor than you, would not include you own glory and power,

just as the president give power to his ministers but not the power to take is place away from him ,like in the verses i quoted you he receive the powers this means he did not have them before that time,and yet he was the son then ,

the reason for the work of Christ is to bring all back into Gods will so that all his of God.

then he also will subdue himself to the father ,WHAT DOES TELL YOU THAT HE SUBDUE HIMSELF TO THE FATHER ?

IS THIS NOT SAYING THAT THE FATHER IS HIGHER THAN CHRIST ,YES INDEED.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,09:16)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2011,19:03) Hi Keith, Although Pierre has addressed your question confidently and scripturally, I will wait until you answer my points/questions from the third and fourth posts on this page before addressing yours. You seem to have blown them off completely. mike Ahh but wait Mike You didn't address my point before your points in the 3rd post of this page when I said… “Again, when you can logically explain how something can “come through” someone “without coming from“ that same someone then you may have a point. Remember Mike all things are IN JESUS HANDS so that means “all things come from him” and by him all things consist. In fact it is through or by him we exist.” Instead you created a diversion with your next 2 post. Whats a matter Mike, cat got your tongue?   Blessings! WJ

The Tertullian quote WAS me “dealing with that question”, Keith. Now it's YOUR turn to deal with the bolded Tertullian words. Oh, and the other post about the ULTIMATE source of John's revelation.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2011,15:11)

Peirre The point is you said… Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,18:51) Christ received is powers from God “but God did not Give him all his own powers” ,only to do what Christ has to be doing That is not a true statement according to the scriptures I gave you above. Are ALL things in Jesus hands NOW or not? Does Jesus have ALL Authority and Power NOW or not? Instead of creating a diversion of what will be in the future just answer the questions and the points or retract your unbiblical statement. WJ

Keith,

Get real.  15:27 says that EVERYTHING has been put under Jesus.  Did Paul really mean EVERYTHING when he said that?  No, because he went on to say, “Well obviously the “everything” doesn't include God Himself, who is the One who is so far above anyone else that He PUT that “everything” under Jesus in the first place!”  (Paraphrase    )

The bottom line to an unbiased thinking man is that Jesus has been put over each and every thing that his God put him over.

And it follows that when Jesus says THE FATHER has GIVEN me all power and authority, that it similarly means that Jesus has been given every single bit of power and authority that his God has deemed him worthy to have.

If Jesus literally had EVERYTHING under him, it would INCLUDE the Father.  If Jesus literally had ALL power and authority, the Father would have NONE AT ALL.

Think it out Keith.  Don't you realize how lame your trinity doctrine becomes in our eyes when these little trivial word games are all you have to defend it?  You are TRANSPARENT, man.

Come over to the truth that Jesus is the Son OF God, and NOT the God he is the Son OF.

peace,
mike

[uoflfan]

As mike says 1Cor 15 tells it all, Jesus has been given all power and authority by the Father and when He comes back, He will give the Kingdom to the Father and be subject to Him, even as He is now, So that God, The Father, may be All in All.
Here is the Exact Scripture to back it up As in the New American Standard Bible.
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

God Bless

[mikeboll64]

Welcome back, fellow true believer.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 25 2006,21:29)

H2O can exist in three different realities, yet remain H20 • Ice • Liquid • or Steam Each Person of the Godhead can choose a different office within the plan of salvation, yet remain God.

But not at the same time!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 25 2006,08:05)

5For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? (seems to indicate a start)

Brilliant point Wm.

I wonder what Kathi, Keith and Jack think about that. (Oh, and D-Linquent, so he doesn't feel left out if he is still around.)

“God the Son” couldn't have ALWAYS BEEN “God the Son” if there was a time that the Father BECAME his Father.

mike

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,02:26)

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2011,18:51) Christ received is powers from God but God did not Give him all his own powers ,only to do what Christ has to be doing Hi All Peirre is not speaking the Biblical truth for the scriptures say… And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “ALL POWER” is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18 “ALL THINGS that the Father hath ARE MINE”: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16 The Father loveth the Son, “and hath given ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS”. John 3:35 WJ

Let's put this in perspective WJ.

Yes God is generous and we know that he has given his son all things. So what does this mean?

First off, it is spiritual and true to understand that the one who gives is greater than the one who receives. Or that it is more blessed to give than receive. So the Father who gives is greater than the son who receives. And even Jesus said that the Father was greater than himself, so no argument there.

Let's look at 3 scriptures to understand this.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

So yes we know that God has given him all things and all authority too.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

So at some point, when all is under Christ, (except God), Christ freely gives the kingdom back to God. Of course when you understand that Christ is the agent for salvation and redemption, then it is not hard to understand the plan.

Romans 8:32
“He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?”

See that. God gives all to the son, so that all will come under his feet and because God paid such a high price for our souls, it is written that he will in turn freely give us all things.

I am not sure where you are going with this WJ, but I instinctively know that you are trying to rebuild a bridge to the Trinity Doctrine, but I am afraid that I have collapsed that bridge. So back to the drawing board WJ.

Will not God freely give us all things? Start building the new bridge from there. No point in ignoring the truth. Using the truth is the honorable thing to do.

[Pastry]

WJ  Yes, God has given all power to Jesus, but that does not mean that now He is equal with Gdo…… Scriptures tell a different story…… Even Jesus by His own words says this

Jhn 14:28   Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.  

In order to set all straight and have peace on earth, all truths will be taught by Jesus.  God Himself will not do so because He is Spirit and immortal and cant even look on evil, and this society has gotten more evil….He will come and strike the nation with the wrath of God.

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

And when all things have made subject to Jesus, He will give the Kingdom back to God

1Cr 15:28   And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.  

Thee are plenty of Scriptures that proof the trinity wrong….the word trinity is not in the bible…. Jehovah God is above all….

Eph 4:6   One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.  

And Jehovah God is not a compound unity either…. It is God the Fathers name ALONE

Psa 83:18   That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.  

Keith, Pierre has a problems at times with the English language, do to that She is a foreign born American….My Mother had the same problem. It is not easy to learn another language…..But with the Heart, I can make out what She means…..You on the other hand will look for anything to trow anyone of….She however is knowledgeable in Scriptures…..Peace Ifrene

[mikeboll64]

Speaking of WJ…………..where exactly has ol' Keith been hiding lately? I haven't heard from him in over two weeks.

[Proclaimer]

I told him to go back to the drawing board.
He might be there.

[mikeboll64]

[rebellman]

Hi everyone!

The last post here was quite a while ago, so I hope I'm not just whistling in the dark.

Follows is a quote from my post in “Preexistence (part 2):

Quote

So, how is God going to do this. Since the penalty was death, a death is required to satisfy justice. But, God can't die! (God's omnipotence notwithstanding, as by his own rules, God cannot do anything that is contrary to his nature – he can't lie, he can't change what he is and he can't die.) So, what is he to do? See the story of Abraham and Isacc. God will personally make the sacrifice to atone for Adam's transgression (that's how much he loves us), but he cannot do this personally, because even if it were possible for God to die, if he did die, at that precise instant everything would cease to exist. So, enter the Son. God chose to sacrafice a like thing to Adam; Adam is a created son, Jesus issues from God's being (the only begotten of the Father). It is necessary for Jesus to issue from God's being for two principle reasons: 1) the sacrifice must be both perfect and holy; and 2) it must be a thing that God personally gives up (sacrifices). So, God takes the thing most dear to him, his Word, physically separates it from himself and causes it to become a human being. Now enter Mary, Jesus' mother. Because Jesus must be human, one man standing in the place of another man, he can't just wander in out of the desert, he has to be connected directly so that mankind will know that this is that sacrifice that God has made. The virgin birth is essentially a by product of this, because Jesus is a new creation and cannot, by definition, actually partake of his mother's flesh, lest it impart man's fallen nature. Now, regardless of where the man Jesus came from or what stuff he was made of, he absolutely must be a separate entity from his Father for a large number of reasons, but primarily so that he can be something that God actually gives up; if he is in any way still God and God can't die, then the death of Jesus is a sham and Jesus must die in order to satisfy the penalty (It may or may not be worthy of note that in any religion where God is said to have incarnated, when he leaves he just goes away, he does not die). Now, in order for it to be proven that Jesus is his Father's son, he must be enabled to do those things that the Father can do, so Jesus is anonted (made Christ) by receiving God's Spirit which empowers him.

Because both sides (trinitarians & non-trintarians) make some complelling points the above is offered from a purely logical stand point. Nevertheless, trinitarians should take into consideration the origins of “Trinity.” Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, know commonly as Tertullian, was a prolific Christian apologist. He is the first to expound upon “Trinity” at length and some credit him with its invention. However, Tertullian did not derive his deffinitions for the Bible, but rather from Roman law and Greek philosophy and then superimposed these upon God, his Son and the Holy Spirit. This in itself is not enough to condemn his writings, but in his later life he was a member of a false sect called “The New Prophecy,” and later know by the name of its founder Montanus and called Montanists. This sect had two female prophetesses, Prisca and Maximillia, who claimed to be the Paraclete or Mouth Piece of God. The sect claimed that after them there would be no prophecy. However, none of the prophetesses' prophecies came to pass. The sect was also condemned by the first century Church as a heresy. Tertullian was the Montanist's most staunch apologist, meaning that he actively and vocally supported them and their philosophies. So, we have the person most likely to have invented “Trinity” who is not only a member of a false sect, but is their primary defender. Therefore, the thing to consider is this, how likely is it that God would allow a clear heretic to define the “Godhead” and not use a single reference from the Bible for his doctrine?

[Author]

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