- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
why would Jesus even need to mediate between man and God? A potential sinner is talking to him already! So I guess that scripture about a mediator between man and God needs to come out of the Bible too?
…and you know……was he talking to himself again when he said Father let this cup pass from me on the Cross?
Honestly; I hope when Jesus returns that it BUMBUZZLES everybody (me and you) as to how it was going to be and what reality was!! That's what Jesus usually did in the Bible. I just hope their is more of his Grace and Forgiveness he supplies by his death on the Cross than anyone gives him credit for so that BOTH of us go to Heaven when he calls?
Welcome LaDon,
I would be happy to discuss with you. Thanks for all your thoughts. I'll try to keep my answers simple because the gospel is simple, really…and I believe that the whole Bible is inspired by God and inerrant in the original languages. There are many good translations out there and I like the NASB but I use others as well. All this about timelines and such is for the mature Christian and not for newbies. Don't worry about all that now. Give me one question at a time and I will try my best to give you my understanding…if you would like.Kathi
Hi LaDon, Welcome.
Funny I was just on this;
<>
Young's Literal Translation——————————————————————————–
1 Call upon you, then, do I — the prisoner of the Lord — to walk worthily of the calling with which ye were called, 2 with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, 3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace; 4 one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
8 wherefore, he saith, 'Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' —
9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? 10 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things — 11 and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers, 12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, 13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ, 14 that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray, 15 and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head — the Christ; 16 from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.
17 This, then, I say, and I testify in the Lord; ye are no more to walk, as also the other nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 being darkened in the understanding, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart, 19 who, having ceased to feel, themselves did give up to the lasciviousness, for the working of all uncleanness in greediness; 20 and ye did not so learn the Christ, 21 if so be ye did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus; 22 ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
25 Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another; 26 be angry and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath, 27 neither give place to the devil; 28 whoso is stealing let him no more steal, but rather let him labour, working the thing that is good with the hands, that he may have to impart to him having need. 29 Let no corrupt word out of your mouth go forth, but what is good unto the needful building up, that it may give grace to the hearers; 30 and make not sorrowful the Holy Spirit of God, in which ye were sealed to a day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil-speaking, be put away from you, with all malice, 32 and become one to another kind, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, according as also God in Christ did forgive you.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,09:27) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2011,16:46) Question: If we will be like Jesus and he calls us brothers, then does that support Jesus being the son of God or God?
Answer: Son of God.Because if we are to be like God and God calls us brother, then we are too God.
But if he is the son, then we are sons, and we will be his brother.Just another clear indicator that Jesus is the son of God and not one member of a Trinity God.
Hopefully this will be well received.
t8Being a brother to Jesus is linked to his humanity because he came in the flesh.
So the question is back to you.
“Before Jesus came in the flesh was he a brother to humanity?“
In the Kingdom of God there are no brothers or sisters are there t8?
Is there gender in heaven, or will we be like the Angels?
So in other words Jesus becoming a brother to humanity has no bearing on him being the Son of God since the Son of God does not have to be human right?
Burn that straw man down. t8 I am amazed at this last lame attempt you made, it seems below you.
WJ
WJ.You burnt down an imaginary straw man that exists only in your own head.
It is written that Jesus existed with divine nature, emptied himself and came in human nature, then returned to the glory he had before the world begun.
We on the other-hand, existed in human nature and have been invited to partake of divine nature.
We are told that our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his and he calls us brothers.
So in light of that, what Jesus is in type, we can become.
Jesus of course is a specific identity and we are all different in identity, but we can be like him.Being his brother is not about being human because there are plenty of humans that are not his brother.
If this is the case, then try and think what it is that those who are his brother will have in common with him. Because human nature is shared by those that are not his brother and we who are truly his brother, have been invited to partake of divine nature.
In addition, he is the son of God and we are the sons of God. In another post somewhere you spoke of your doubt that sons of God and Angels were the same or could be the same. If that is your understanding, then from that you can see it appears that we will be more like Jesus than they. After all does it say of angels that they will inherit a body like his?
t8,
Why do you believe that Jesus could empty Himself of His nature? I believe that it wasn't His nature that He emptied Himself of because I don't think that is possible for Him. He may have emptied Himself of receiving the privileges that go with divinity, like the riches of heaven, and the glory that He had with the Father, even of His memory, but not His divinity.Here is not a perfect example but maybe you will get the idea:
If a prince from one country wanted to go to another country and live like a pauper where no one identified him in order to experience that lifestyle and be better able to relate to the lower class, he didn't need to empty himself of his royalty…he couldn't possible empty himself of his royal blood. He did set aside the privileges of that royalty though.Anyway, that is how I understand it.
Quote (t8 @ April 10 2011,20:32) In addition, he is the son of God and we are the sons of God. In another post somewhere you spoke of your doubt that sons of God and Angels were the same or could be the same. If that is your understanding, then from that you can see it appears that we will be more like Jesus than they. After all does it say of angels that they will inherit a body like his?
t8You didn't answer my questions. Why not?
The fact that Jesus has a body and our bodies are going to be changed and fashioned like his glorious body is further proof that Jesus is not an angel.
Are you saying we are brothers to his divine nature or his human nature?
You said…
Quote (t8 @ April 10 2011,20:32) It is written that Jesus existed with divine nature, emptied himself and came in human nature, then returned to the glory he had before the world begun.
Did Jesus empty himself of his divine nature?Is that what you believe?
If so then why did Jesus call his followers brothers if it is not linked to his humanity since you believe he emptied himself of his divine nature to become a man?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ April 11 2011,17:35) t8,
Why do you believe that Jesus could empty Himself of His nature? I believe that it wasn't His nature that He emptied Himself of because I don't think that is possible for Him. He may have emptied Himself of receiving the privileges that go with divinity, like the riches of heaven, and the glory that He had with the Father, even of His memory, but not His divinity.Here is not a perfect example but maybe you will get the idea:
If a prince from one country wanted to go to another country and live like a pauper where no one identified him in order to experience that lifestyle and be better able to relate to the lower class, he didn't need to empty himself of his royalty…he couldn't possible empty himself of his royal blood. He did set aside the privileges of that royalty though.Anyway, that is how I understand it.
Good points Kathi!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ April 11 2011,16:35) t8,
Why do you believe that Jesus could empty Himself of His nature?
Hi Kathi,That's just one of the Trinitarian tricks that they didn't really think through before claiming. “Morphe” refers to “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision, or external appearance”. But in an effort to claim Jesus has the same “nature” of his God, the trinni's have now mostly gone with the word “nature” instead of form.
But it has backfired on them because verse 7 clearly says Jesus “emptied himself” of this “morphe”. So if it meant “nature”, then 2:7 says Jesus emptied himself of the nature of God.
mike
Mike,
That's interesting, I will have to look into that. Do you agree that the Son did not empty Himself of His nature to become flesh?Kathi
I agree that Jesus was in the form of God, meaning that he was also a heavenly spirit being. Then he emptied himself of that form, and took on the form of a human being.
mike
To all,
What does devine nature mean when you are speaking of the spirit of righteousness and holiness?
Hi All
I don't have much time but thought I would post the following which demonstrates what I believe to be scriptural in relation to the Trinity.
Jesus Christ our Creator
A biblical defence of the Trinity
by Jonathan SarfatiThe doctrine of the Trinity is difficult for some people to understand. But this is what God has revealed in Scripture about His own Being, so we should believe it.
The doctrine of the Trinity states that in the unity of the Godhead there are three eternal and co-equal Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the same in essence but distinct in role — three Persons (or three centres of consciousness) and one Being (see diagram, below) The different senses of one-ness and three-ness mean that the doctrine is not self-contradictory. This is similar in principle to saying that the navy, army, and airforce are three distinct fighting entities, but are also one armed service. NB: this is not to suggest that the three persons are ‘parts’ of God. Indeed, each Person has the fullness of the Godhead (see Colossians 2:9). A better analogy is that space contains three dimensions, yet the dimensions are not ‘parts’ — the concept of ‘space’ is meaningless without all three dimensions.
Biblical derivation
All things necessary for our faith and life are either expressly set down in Scripture or may be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture. Some cults, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, and groups known as ‘Oneness’, or ‘Jesus-only’ Pentecostals (not to be confused with mainstream Pentecostals who do believe in the Trinity), are fond of pointing out that the word ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible. But the doctrine can be logically proven from the following clear teachings of Scripture as follows: There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:8). Note that the Hebrew word for ‘one’ is echad which means composite unity — it is used in Genesis 2:24 where the husband and wife become ‘one flesh’. The word for absolute unity is yachid which is never used of God in the Scripture.The Father is called God (John 6:27, Ephesians 4:6).
The Son is called God (Hebrews 1:8. He is also called ‘I am’ in John 8:58 cf. Ex. 3:14 — see below for more biblical proof). He has always existed (John 1:1–3, 8:56–58), but took on full human nature in addition to His divine nature at the Incarnation (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5–11).
The Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3–4), and is personal (Acts 13:2), not some impersonal force as the Jehovah’s Witness cult believes.
They are distinct, e.g. at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16–17 all three were present and distinct. The Son is baptized, the Father speaks from Heaven, and the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, flies down and lands on the Son. See the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ Note that the word ‘name’ is singular, showing that all three Persons are one Being.
The distinction in persons within the one God means that it is possible for Jesus to be the ‘one mediator between God and men’ (1 Timothy 2:5), and to be our ‘advocate with the Father’ (1 John 2:1) when we sin. An advocate is a defence lawyer, who pleads our case before a judge. This demonstrates a distinction between the persons.
The distinction makes the Substitutionary Atonement possible. How else could Jesus be the One on whom the LORD has ‘laid … the iniquity of us all’ (Isaiah 53:6)? The one laying and the one on whom our sins are laid must be distinct.
Jesus said that His Father sent Him (John 14:24) and that the Spirit was sent by both the Father (John 14:26) and the Son (John 15:7). This also points to distinct centres of consciousness within the one God.
The fact that Jesus prayed to God the Father (John 17:1) shows there was a distinction between Father and Son. Since Jesus was fully human (as well as fully divine), and humans should pray, it follows that it was proper for Jesus to pray in His humanity.
Also, the deity of the Son, Jesus Christ, is further proved by the fact that He has attributes belonging uniquely to God, e.g.:
He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17).
He has the ability to forgive sins (Luke 7:47–50) and judge all people (John 5:27).
He sends forth the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).
He accepts worship (Hebrews 1:6, Matthew 14:33)
He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear)
And He is identified with the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the equivalent ‘the first and the last’ (Revelation 1:8, 17–18, cf. Isaiah 44:6).In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2)
Some Objections to the Trinity Answered
Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some cults have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.
The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister — he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.
Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.
‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.
Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).
This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.
References
Paul Enns, Moody Handbook of Theolo
gy (Chicago: Moody, 1989);
Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah’s Witnesses (Harvest House 1993);
Josh McDowell & Bart Larson, Jesus: A Biblical Defence of His Deity (East Sussex, UK: Crossway Books, First British Ed. 1991).
W. E. Vine, M. F. Unger and W. White Jr., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (NY: Thomas Nelson, 1985). SourceBlessings!
Keith
Keith,
Excellent Trinitarian diatribe – I have a similar book – it might even be the same one.
I underlined several errors on EVERY PAGE where the author had twisted Scriptures to get round clear references.Everything written in your quote has been refuted over and over – so bringing it to the table counts for nothing. It was false from the beginning and it is still false at the end.
For instance, Jesus is not God because he said 'I Am'… He was stating that he EXISTED before Abraham! Keith, the sentence makes no sense to be claiming that he is God :
'Before Abraham, I was God?' – so what was he then? Not God?
'Before Abraham, I Was/I Am… ' would be 'Kreitton'!
In fact, why would Jesus claim to be God ONLY THIS ONCE and then immediately after say 'What of it that I am the Son of God. Did God (???) himself not call them (The mighty men of God) 'Gods' to whom the word of God came.. '
It was the JEWS who made the mistake in accusing Jesus of Blasphemy!!Crazy load of errors – too many to write – all been sorted –
Wow- what a Spin to say that Jesus was only INFERIOR to GOD(???) because GOD was in the SUPERIOR POSITION (?
) – crazy snakes!!I think it is PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE to say 'My Father is Greater than I' without analysis…
Who GAVE Jesus the POWER AND AUTHORITY to ACT on his Behalf? Was it NOT GOD himself.
Without God, Jesus 'Could do nothing'… Jesus himself says 'Father, Give me the power in your name to do this thing or that thing!' – this he prayed ALWAYS before acting out a great miracle or a small miracle… This is reflected in the Scriptures where David and many others prayed for guidance and power from God to do a godly deed ( e.g. To go to war or not. The Holy High Priest was often used as the intermediatory to effect a clean request… Samuel, Ezekiel, Daniel, …)
Even in HEAVEN, Jesus is GIVEN POWER AND AUTHORITY TO RULE for a TIME… who gave him that power and authority?
If he is CO-equal how is it given to him and he gives it back …
If he is equal how is he GIVEN the Holy Spirit
If he is equal how is the Holy Spirit given – passed around in effect – A Co-equal partner does not get 'passed around' by the others.
If he is equal how is it the HOLY SPIRIT BELONGS TO GOD(???)… I mean BELONGS TO THE FATHER…
And the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BELONGS TO THE FATHER…
Jesus has authority FROM THE FATHER to RULE OVER his (The Father)'s Kingdom…
What Rulership has the HOLY SPIRIT?And why are the 'brethren' only BRETHREN OF CHRIST – but SONS OF GOD?
Is the Son equal to the father? No!
Is the Heir equal to the King? No!While the King lives, the Son may partake of what is IN HIS FATHER's house BUT it is still 'HIS FATHERS HOUSE' – if the Son sins then he can be PUT OUT… (Read about the bad Steward in Book of Esther! Why does no one else read this book?)
Also Joseph and Pharoah – neither Mordeciah (the good Steward) nor Joseph were SUPERIOR TO THE KINGS, but only ruled OVER the kingdom… These are DIRECT ANALOGIES TO JESUS CHRIST.
Joseph was put into the pit – the figurative death.
Mordeciah was left in the dust outside the Palace.
Joseph saved the Egyptian nation.
Mordeciah saved the Jewish Nation.
Jesus was put into the grave – a literal death.
Jesus saved the Global Spiritual Jewish nation.Keith, too many errors to correct… It's all been corrected before…
WJ,
Why does Scriptures say that we should worship the Father Only?And where does it say that we should worship Jesus?
And where does it say we should worship the Holy Spirit?
And where in Scriptures does Anyone worship the Holy Spirit?
And where in Scriptures is Jesus Worshipped?
Come to think of it – What IS WORSHIP?
Jesus on earth was a Man – wasn't he? Are we to worship men?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
