The Trinity Doctrine

[Is 1:18]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2010,15:33)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,15:19) You do understand there's more than one Greek texts, don't you? And that there's textual variations between them? Yes.  Do you understand the one used in Online Bible Study Tools that you linked does NOT have the Greek word “I” in the text?  It is in the English of the KJV, but it is NOT EVEN THERE IN THE GREEK. Can you SEE this? mike ps  good night pagan

It's in the textus receptus, as I've shown.

Don't call me pagan.

[Is 1:18]

And here's more evidence that the translations that use the received text have the Greek word for “I” (mh, me) in them.

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=16&verse=13

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2010,22:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,03:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2010,22:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 17 2010,14:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2010,12:22) Hi Dennison, Sorry, bro.  There is nothing in those scriptures that says Jesus is this “Son of Man” he keeps talking about in the third person. peace and love, mike I didnt say that scripture specifically say that Jesus was the Son of Man, But Jesus and Scripture confirms what the Son of Man is, and what will happen to the Son of Man, and that happen with Jesus. Unless your stating that there is another Son of Man? I am stating that you cannot prove scripturally that Jesus is in fact the Son of Man.  Can you? Dennison, you missed the earlier joke.  I was challenged to prove that every mention of El Shaddai referred to the Father.  It can't be done.  So instead of letting Is 1:18 win the point, I challenged him to prove from scripture that Jesus is the Son of Man.  As far as I know, it can't be done either.  I think he gave up on trying, so I made my point. But feel free to keep trying.  I don't KNOW that it can't be done, but I haven't seen proof yet.     mike Mike When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?  Matt 16:13 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matt 16:27 These two scriptures by themselves prove that Jesus when speaking of the Son of man means he is speaking of himself! WJ Hi WJ, Sorry, neither scripture you quote clearly PROVES Jesus to be the Son of Man.  And I think you misquoted one of them. 13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”    14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”    15″But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”    16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus first asked who they thought this “Son of Man” was.  Then he asked, “Who do you think [b]I am?” You second scripture doesn't clarify that it is Jesus coming in the glory of his Father, does it? Keep trying WJ!  This is kind of cool.  It gives you trinitarians a taste of your own “grasping at straws” medicine. mike

Mike

Wow. Amazing. You obviously close your eyes to the truth.

Who else is Jesus speaking of that is coming with the Holy Angels Mike?

And who else is coming in his Kingdom?

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, “till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom“. Matt 16:28

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. Matt 18:11

And what other Son of Man has come to save the lost?

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matt 20:28

And what other “Son of man could give his life for the ransom of many?

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matt 26:24

And what other “Son of man” would be betrayed and Jesus say it would be better for that man that betrayed him to not be born?

he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Matt 26:45

And just who was Jesus speaking of here just before he was betrayed and taken to be crucified?

unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matt 26:64

And just who is the “Son of man” that is sitting on the right hand of God?

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) Mk 2:10

And just what Son of man can forgive sins against God and who was is it that healed this man?

And as Paul has shown you the “I” is in the Greek in Matt 16:13

This is truly embarrasing for you Mike! But it shows me that no matter what is shown you in scripture you will choose to believe a lie!

WJ

[Proclaimer]

The Trinity started off as a Binity and it transformed into the Trinity. Is the Quadrinity next?

[Proclaimer]

For us, there is one God the Father.
For some others there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit.

The first option states that there is one God or one who is God.
The second option states that there is one God made up of 3 persons.

The first option means we can refer to God has “him” and “he”.
The second option means that God is referred to as “they” and “them”.

The first option acknowledges that God is a person, personality, or more accurately, a who.
The second says that God is an “it” i.e., a substance and not a person as such.

So the first option means that God is the Father and Jesus is the son and the messiah that God sent.
The second option states that Jesus is the son of himself, the Father, and the Spirit because all 3 are God and we all agree that Jesus is the son of God (3 persons) which obviously includes himself. He is his own son because he is also God.

Hopefully this makes some people think a bit harder about what they really believe and the connotations of what they believe.

Have a nice weekend everyone.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,15:40)

Do you never concede even when proven unequivocally that you're wrong??

Hi Paul,

This is from the link I gave you:

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
qeo;n {N-ASM} oujdei;? {A-NSF} eJwvraken {V-RAI-3S-ATT} pwvpote: {ADV} monogenh;? {A-NSM} qeo;? {N-NSM} oJ {T-NSM} w^n {V-PXP-NSM} eij? {PREP} to;n {T-ASM} kovlpon {N-ASM} tou' {T-GSM} patro;? {N-GSM} ejkei'no? {D-NSM} ejxhghvsato.

Now I don't have the Greek font set up in my computer (because I'm not sure how to do it), but do you see the two words I bolded?  The first is monogenes.  The second is theos.  So like I said, it is not in the Greek.  The same applies to the word “I” in Matthew.  IT IS NOT THERE ON BIBLE STUDY TOOLS.  And that is the Greek translation the the KJV used.  So where did they get the “I”?

This is Matt 16:13 from the same site:

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying , Whom do men say that I the Son of man am ?
jElqw;n {V-2AAP-NSM} de; {CONJ} oJ {T-NSM} #Ihsou'? {N-NSM} eij? {PREP} ta; {T-APN} mevrh {N-APN} Kaisareiva? {N-GSF} th'? {T-GSF} Filivppou {N-GSM} hjrwvta {V-IAI-3S} tou;? {T-APM} maqhta;? {N-APM} aujtou' {P-GSM} levgwn, {V-PAP-NSM} Tivna {I-ASM} levgousin {V-PAI-3P} oiJ {T-
                           WHOM            ARE SAYING             THE

NPM} a~nqrwpoi {N-NPM} ei\nai {V-PXN} to;n {T-ASM}
         MEN                      TO BE            THE    

uiJo;n {N-ASM} tou' {T-GSM} ajnqrwvpou; {N-GSM}
SON                OF THE            MAN

Okay?  Show me where the word “I” is in the above.  That goes for you too, WJ.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,15:55)

And here's more evidence that the translations that use the received text have the Greek word for “I” (mh, me) in them. http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=16&verse=13

It IS more evidence…..for me!

First, it shows that out of all the translations listed, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have the word “I” in them.

Second, it shows the Greek below which DOESN'T have the word “I” in it. You can click on the “I” in the KJV translation and it gives you the Strong's # for that word and everything, just like OBST does, but it doesn't change the fact that the “I” is NOT IN THE GREEK THAT IS PRINTED DIRECTLY BELOW THE KJV TRANSLATION.

Who's the one of us having trouble with proof again?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,16:58)

And as Paul has shown you the “I” is in the Greek in Matt 16:13 This is truly embarrasing for you Mike! But it shows me that no matter what is shown you in scripture you will choose to believe a lie!

Hi WJ,

First, the “I” is NOT in the Greek. Paul is mistaken.

Second, this started as a joke to show Paul that just because every mention of the Almighty cannot be DIRECTLY linked to the Father doesn't mean the Father is NOT the ONLY Almighty.

I know that Jesus is the Son of Man. But YOU have still not proved it with these scriptures. All of these scriptures could have Jesus talking about some “Son of Man” dude, not himself.

Either PROVE beyond a doubt – no conjecture, no inferrence – that Jesus is the Son of Man, or admit you can't.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2010,18:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,16:58) And as Paul has shown you the “I” is in the Greek in Matt 16:13 This is truly embarrasing for you Mike! But it shows me that no matter what is shown you in scripture you will choose to believe a lie! Hi WJ, First, the “I” is NOT in the Greek.  Paul is mistaken. Second, this started as a joke to show Paul that just because every mention of the Almighty cannot be DIRECTLY linked to the Father doesn't mean the Father is NOT the ONLY Almighty. I know that Jesus is the Son of Man.  But YOU have still not proved it with these scriptures.  All of these scriptures could have Jesus talking about some “Son of Man” dude, not himself. Either PROVE beyond a doubt – no conjecture, no inferrence – that Jesus is the Son of Man, or admit you can't. mike

Mike

To you there is no “beyond a doubt”, because that is all you do my friend!

In a court of law the passages I show makes Jesus the “Son of man” beyond a doubt!

WJ

[Is 1:18]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2010,10:12)

First, the “I” is NOT in the Greek.  Paul is mistaken.

I'm not mistaken. It's is in the Greek, the Greek in the Textus Receptus manuscript to be specific. The greek word for “I” in Matthew 16:13 is “me”, from the original word eÍgwñ.

Here is a link that makes it very plain for you (if that's possible!):

http://www.studylight.org/isb….+Search

(note: underlining of the words is denotation that they are found in the manuscript).

[Is 1:18]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2010,10:07)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,15:55) And here's more evidence that the translations that use the received text have the Greek word for “I” (mh, me) in them. http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=16&verse=13 It IS more evidence…..for me!   First, it shows that out of all the translations listed, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have the word “I” in them.

Umm yeah, the KJV and NKJV translations were based on the received text. Other versions draw on different manuscripts. I thought that was common knowledge…

Guess not.

[Proclaimer]

OK believers (us). We are being attacked by Trinitarians in greater number. Hold on to the truth that God is the Father and his son is Jesus and they cannot prevail.

Fire in the hole.

[Is 1:18]

Yeah, be on notice, truth is out to get you….

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ June 20 2010,10:46)

OK believers (us). We are being attacked by Trinitarians in greater number. Hold on to the truth that God is the Father and his son is Jesus and they cannot prevail. Fire in the hole.

Bring it on. We've got scriptural truth on our side.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
We cannot educate the deaf so better to preach the kingdom.
Their work is only defensive and negative.
We preach life in the Son of God.

[Oxy]

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:57)

The Trinity started off as a Binity and it transformed into the Trinity. Is the Quadrinity next?

If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you have a quadrinity lol

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,13:48)

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:57) The Trinity started off as a Binity and it transformed into the Trinity. Is the Quadrinity next? If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you have a quadrinity lol

Hi Oxy,

Actually, if you believe that things OF God are God Himself, there is no end to the “ity's”. We would have a “googlinity” or more.

Best to believe that there is God, and then there are many things OF God. Such as the Son OF God, the Holy Spirit OF God, the love OF God, etc.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2010,11:40)

Hi MB, We cannot educate the deaf so better to preach the kingdom. Their work is only defensive and negative. We preach life in the Son of God.

Hi Nick,

True enough. But healthy people don't need a doctor. Jesus came, not to help the righteous, but the unrighteous. And in the case of mental illness, it is common that the sick person doesn't even realize he is sick. In fact, he is sure that YOU are the one with problems.

I'm trying to prove to some of these people that they are indeed ill. It is an uphill battle so far, becasue they refuse to be tested. If I can only get them to agree to testing, the results will clearly show their illness – so that maybe they can believe it and seek medical attention.

peace and love,
mike

[Oxy]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2010,05:56)

Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,13:48) Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:57) The Trinity started off as a Binity and it transformed into the Trinity. Is the Quadrinity next? If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you have a quadrinity lol Hi Oxy, Actually, if you believe that things OF God are God Himself, there is no end to the “ity's”.  We would have a “googlinity” or more.   Best to believe that there is God, and then there are many things OF God.  Such as the Son OF God, the Holy Spirit OF God, the love OF God, etc. peace and love, mike

Sort of lol, but at the end of the day Scripture makes it clear that there was:

Almighty God who became a Father when Jesus was born
The Word of God who was in the beginning with God and was God and was made flesh (Jesus)
The Holy Spirit who descended on Jesus at His baptism (when His Father commended Him from Heaven.

Incidently it is interesting to note that Jesus is once again the Word of God (Rev 19:13) and that the Holy Spirit is a “He” who was sent from the Father

Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Joh 15:27 And you also shall bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Oxy @ June 26 2010,15:55)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 21 2010,05:56) Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,13:48) Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:57) The Trinity started off as a Binity and it transformed into the Trinity. Is the Quadrinity next? If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God you have a quadrinity lol Hi Oxy, Actually, if you believe that things OF God are God Himself, there is no end to the “ity's”.  We would have a “googlinity” or more.   Best to believe that there is God, and then there are many things OF God.  Such as the Son OF God, the Holy Spirit OF God, the love OF God, etc. peace and love, mike Sort of lol, but at the end of the day Scripture makes it clear that there was: Almighty God who became a Father when Jesus was born The Word of God who was in the beginning with God and was God and was made flesh (Jesus) The Holy Spirit who descended on Jesus at His baptism (when His Father commended Him from Heaven. Incidently it is interesting to note that Jesus is once again the Word of God (Rev 19:13) and that the Holy Spirit is a “He” who was sent from the Father Joh 15:26  And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me. Joh 15:27  And you also shall bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Hi Oxy,

Maybe I'm missing the hidden meaning in your last post, but it seems to me that you are saying that just because there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, that somehow that means all three are God. Is that what you are saying?

You said:

Quote

Incidently it is interesting to note that Jesus is once again the Word of God (Rev 19:13) and that the Holy Spirit is a “He” who was sent from the Father

Yes, it is interesting that the Word was raised from the dead BACK to his previous postition and glory. And what is that previous postion he was raised back to? He now sits at the right hand of the One he calls “my God” as God's only begotten Son and a servant of his God.

And both Mount Zion and Jerusalem we called “her” and “she” in the OT. Does that mean a mountain and a city were people?

peace and love,
mike

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