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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,05:24) Quote (trettep @ May 19 2005,03:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,02:21) Hi,
The problem is that Proverbs 1-9 is an essay of Wisdom. Wisdom is portayed as a woman in Prov 8-9 who calls to all to partake of her blessings. To take some verses from them and interpret them as the Son of God is to rob their fullness. It also presents Yeshua in only one of his amazing facets.
Its ok Nick – its something I understand. I don't expect everyone to understand what I know. Also, its probably a bit off subject of this thread.Paul
Hi trettep,What you “know” should be provable from scripture too.
No one is able to make a stand based solely on his own understanding or inspiration surely?
We are one body.
Nick,What I “know” is subject to the power of God. God dictates what I know and will provide the information I need when I need it. What you have been given is a case for yourself to make light thereof. I agree that everything should be provable from scripture. But not everything is posted as clearly as one desires for the hope that one will eagerly seek out the Truth. But knowing that everything must be scripturally sound – its more wise for one to prove something is false based on scripture then to just say they can't see it therefore its false. I remind you that Jesus spoke in Parable to hide the meaning. In other words Nick – show someone from scripture why something isn't so instead of saying that because you can't see the meaning therefore its not.
Paul
Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,23:08) Nick, Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?
Paul
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.Quote (Guest @ May 20 2005,02:35) Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,23:08) Nick, Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?
Paul
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hi F,
I believe that scripture relates rather to the written word of God than to the person of Jesus.
Jesus is shown with a sword in his mouth in Revelation and that relates to his use of the sword of scripture against his enemies which ,I believe, is judgement according to his words.Quote (Guest @ May 20 2005,02:35) Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,23:08) Nick, Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?
Paul
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Very good Forgiven! This is what I did with the verses I quoted on Wisdom. Many verses are like this where we get one of the sections of the dots and then another section of the dots until we complete the connection. I believe there are many more as you have found Forgiven.Paul
Quote (trettep @ May 19 2005,12:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,05:24) Quote (trettep @ May 19 2005,03:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,02:21) Hi,
The problem is that Proverbs 1-9 is an essay of Wisdom. Wisdom is portayed as a woman in Prov 8-9 who calls to all to partake of her blessings. To take some verses from them and interpret them as the Son of God is to rob their fullness. It also presents Yeshua in only one of his amazing facets.
Its ok Nick – its something I understand. I don't expect everyone to understand what I know. Also, its probably a bit off subject of this thread.Paul
Hi trettep,What you “know” should be provable from scripture too.
No one is able to make a stand based solely on his own understanding or inspiration surely?
We are one body.
Nick,What I “know” is subject to the power of God. God dictates what I know and will provide the information I need when I need it. What you have been given is a case for yourself to make light thereof. I agree that everything should be provable from scripture. But not everything is posted as clearly as one desires for the hope that one will eagerly seek out the Truth. But knowing that everything must be scripturally sound – its more wise for one to prove something is false based on scripture then to just say they can't see it therefore its false. I remind you that Jesus spoke in Parable to hide the meaning. In other words Nick – show someone from scripture why something isn't so instead of saying that because you can't see the meaning therefore its not.
Paul
Hi trettep,
The apostles experienced things not clearly shown in scripture such as Peter's, Paul's and John's visions. I know these things are true too. They reported them and shared them with the brothers for their reflections. But they did not teach from them or give them equal validity to that which is written.Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for teaching manmade doctrines as equal to the Word and we are warned against elevating our own personal”visions”to such importance too[Coll 2.18]
Paul was severely troubled by men claimimg greater knowledge and superiority but he boasted instead in his sufferings and the signs that follow apostles[2Cor 11and 12.Mk 16]
We all need each other Paul and is is wise to teach only from what is in the word surely[2 Tim 3.14-17]Quick question I have on the so called 'Virgin' Birth… why is this not taught by the Apostles in the early church?
I mean surely a divine conception of the Founder of our Faith, the promised Messiah should be something to be talked about when setting up the New Testament church to bring clarification, just as resurrection of the dead and the grace of God were… They were reaching out to Gentiles, non Jews who would have know little of the prophesies nor understand the concept of this birth… surely this would be something that would have indeed needed further clarification.
I cannot find any further scriptures on this apart from the two in the gospels. (A total of about 8 verses in the whole NT) Does anyone have insight to help please as I am sure there must be but I cant seem to find it.
However, this being the case is it something that we should have as being one of the fundamentals for church doctrine?
Any thoughts.
Also, a question from a text in Revelation, why would the Lamb sing a song along with the song of Moses (who He is likened to in the old testament and in the New Testament) saying:
(ALT) And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and marvelous [are] Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true [are] Your ways, O King of the nations!
(ASV) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages.
(Darby) And they sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, O King of nations.
(MSG) They sang the Song of Moses, servant of God; they sang the Song of the Lamb: Mighty your acts and marvelous, O God, the Sovereign-Strong! Righteous your ways and true, King of the nations!
Who wrote the songs, probably those who the song is named after, Moses & the Lamb? If I wrote a song and someone sang my song they would probably say ok lets sing the song written by “Artizan007”. Surely the inspired Word of God uses language that is correct in its grammar and should be read to mean what is says unless stated otherwise.
Why would the Lamb – the so called 'God the Son' part of the trinity write these words to himself or to the God the Father part of the trinity, seems contrary to what is taught about equality between them?
Why would he sing that God was almighty along with Moses if he was that God?
Then notice what they sing in the next verse:
Rev 15:4 “Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For [You] {alone} are holy; for all the nations will come and will prostrate themselves in worship before You, for Your righteousness [or, righteous judgments] were made known.”Who alone is holy? – who stands alone as holy?
Is it the Lamb or is it the One to Whom the song of the Lamb is sung it too… The Lord God Almighty.
Just a thought
Quote (Guest @ May 20 2005,02:35) Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,23:08) Nick, Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?
Paul
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hi ForGiven,
Compare these scriptures with Hebrews 4.121Jn 1.10
” If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His WORD is not in us”
1Jn 2.5
“but whoever keeps his WORD, in him the love of God has truly been perfected”
1Jn2 .14″..I have written to you young men, because you are strong, and the WORD OF GOD abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one”
1Peter 1.23
” for you have been born again not of SEED which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring WORD of God…the grass withers and the flower falls off but the WORD of the Lord endures forever”So what is the SEED?
Lk 8.11
“….the SEED is the WORD of GOD”
Lk 8.15
” But the SEED in the good soil, these are the ones who have HEARD THE WORD..”
Rom 10 17
” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF CHRIST”So hearing the gospel is the planting of the seed.
Does every seed grow? Do all show OBEDIENCE to the Word received?Does the WORD ABIDE in all?
1 Peter 3.1f
“In the same way you wives, be submissive to your husbands so that if any of them are DISOBEDIENTto the WORD, they may be won over without a word by the behaviour of their wives..”1Jn 3.9
” No one who is born of God practices sin because HIS SEED ABIDES in him”If you look again at the context of Heb 4.12
the previous verse reads
” Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall THROUGH FOLLOWING THE SAME EXAMPLE OF DISOBEDIENCE”So the gospel heard lives and grows in us and demands obedience.
The following verses shows that the Spirit of God also in us is aware of our reaction to the seed. [The seed grows in us to produce Christ].
” ..and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from his sight but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do”
I hope this helps.
Hi A7,
God avoids any distractions that would lead men away from the simple message of salvation in Jesus Christ.
After men have partaken of that gift there is plenty of time to research where he came from and how he got here in the Word. God and his servants kept the message simple knowing that many will use any opportunity to set up an argument, or to lead men away to worship of the creature and not the Creator-as has happened anyway.The detail is there. God had to choose a virgin to avoid any other claims of paternity. The Old Testament was less specific on this matter.
The Son of God never was his Father and never will be. He is who he said he was and that has never changed. He is the Son of God. He has always worshipped his Father and he always will. He and Moses were the exemplary servants of the covenants God made with man and they worked together for the glory of God. There is no division between them. Both rejoice and share the words of worship to their God united in the Spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,07:26) Quote (Guest @ May 20 2005,02:35) Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,23:08) Nick, Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?
Paul
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hi ForGiven,
Compare these scriptures with Hebrews 4.121Jn 1.10
” If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His WORD is not in us”
1Jn 2.5
“but whoever keeps his WORD, in him the love of God has truly been perfected”
1Jn2 .14″..I have written to you young men, because you are strong, and the WORD OF GOD abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one”
1Peter 1.23
” for you have been born again not of SEED which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring WORD of God…the grass withers and the flower falls off but the WORD of the Lord endures forever”So what is the SEED?
Lk 8.11
“….the SEED is the WORD of GOD”
Lk 8.15
” But the SEED in the good soil, these are the ones who have HEARD THE WORD..”
Rom 10 17
” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF CHRIST”So hearing the gospel is the planting of the seed.
Does every seed grow? Do all show OBEDIENCE to the Word received?Does the WORD ABIDE in all?
1 Peter 3.1f
“In the same way you wives, be submissive to your husbands so that if any of them are DISOBEDIENTto the WORD, they may be won over without a word by the behaviour of their wives..”1Jn 3.9
” No one who is born of God practices sin because HIS SEED ABIDES in him”If you look again at the context of Heb 4.12
the previous verse reads
” Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall THROUGH FOLLOWING THE SAME EXAMPLE OF DISOBEDIENCE”So the gospel heard lives and grows in us and demands obedience.
The following verses shows that the Spirit of God also in us is aware of our reaction to the seed. [The seed grows in us to produce Christ].
” ..and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from his sight but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do”
I hope this helps.
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.Ok FG,
So lets put Jesus in there and see if it still makes senseFor Jesus is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Does this speak to you?
Quote (Artizan007 @ May 21 2005,06:31) Quick question I have on the so called 'Virgin' Birth… why is this not taught by the Apostles in the early church? I mean surely a divine conception of the Founder of our Faith, the promised Messiah should be something to be talked about when setting up the New Testament church to bring clarification, just as resurrection of the dead and the grace of God were… They were reaching out to Gentiles, non Jews who would have know little of the prophesies nor understand the concept of this birth… surely this would be something that would have indeed needed further clarification.
I cannot find any further scriptures on this apart from the two in the gospels. (A total of about 8 verses in the whole NT) Does anyone have insight to help please as I am sure there must be but I cant seem to find it.
However, this being the case is it something that we should have as being one of the fundamentals for church doctrine?
Any thoughts.
Also, a question from a text in Revelation, why would the Lamb sing a song along with the song of Moses (who He is likened to in the old testament and in the New Testament) saying:
(ALT) And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and marvelous [are] Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true [are] Your ways, O King of the nations!
(ASV) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages.
(Darby) And they sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, O King of nations.
(MSG) They sang the Song of Moses, servant of God; they sang the Song of the Lamb: Mighty your acts and marvelous, O God, the Sovereign-Strong! Righteous your ways and true, King of the nations!
Who wrote the songs, probably those who the song is named after, Moses & the Lamb? If I wrote a song and someone sang my song they would probably say ok lets sing the song written by “Artizan007”. Surely the inspired Word of God uses language that is correct in its grammar and should be read to mean what is says unless stated otherwise.
Why would the Lamb – the so called 'God the Son' part of the trinity write these words to himself or to the God the Father part of the trinity, seems contrary to what is taught about equality between them?
Why would he sing that God was almighty along with Moses if he was that God?
Then notice what they sing in the next verse:
Rev 15:4 “Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For [You] {alone} are holy; for all the nations will come and will prostrate themselves in worship before You, for Your righteousness [or, righteous judgments] were made known.”Who alone is holy? – who stands alone as holy?
Is it the Lamb or is it the One to Whom the song of the Lamb is sung it too… The Lord God Almighty.
Just a thought
Artizan,The Almighty is the Father in Heaven. If you believe in the Trinity then you have been deceived. They are praising the Father.
Paul
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,09:14) Ok FG,
So lets put Jesus in there and see if it still makes senseFor Jesus is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Does this speak to you?
It makes sense to me Nick.Paul
Hey Trettep,
Thanks for that, that is exactly what i was saying in my post. How can the trinity theory be correct when there are so many scriptures to the contrary.
When you used the word {you} in [if you believe in the trinity you have been deceived], did you mean me or {you} as in people in general.
I believe God is in heaven, i believe Jesus is the Son of God and i do not believe in a Trinity like the majority of the Church does. However i believe that there is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ.
My point was how can we read scriptures like the one I stated and so many others where even the Lamb sings a song to the ONLY GOD who is ALMIGHTY.
I do not understand your statement, can you clarify.
Have a good day….
Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,20:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,09:14) Ok FG,
So lets put Jesus in there and see if it still makes senseFor Jesus is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Does this speak to you?
It makes sense to me Nick.Paul
Hi trettep,
Can you then please expound this verse for us?Quote (Guest @ May 20 2005,02:35) Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,23:08) Nick, Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?
Paul
Heb 4:12-13
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hi FG,
Compare these scriptures
Is 491f
” …From the body of my mother He called me. He has made my mouth like a sharp sword..”
Eph 6.17
“and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”
Rev 1.16
“In his right hand he held 7 stars, and out of his mouth came a twoedged sword;..”
Rev 19.15
” From his mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it he may strike down the nations”In three of these scriptures a sword is seen to be part of Jesus but not Jesus himself. In the other it is a tool for our use-could a tool be a person?
So does the sword relate to Jesus himself or his words?
Quote (Artizan007 @ May 21 2005,22:34) Hey Trettep, Thanks for that, that is exactly what i was saying in my post. How can the trinity theory be correct when there are so many scriptures to the contrary.
When you used the word {you} in [if you believe in the trinity you have been deceived], did you mean me or {you} as in people in general.
I believe God is in heaven, i believe Jesus is the Son of God and i do not believe in a Trinity like the majority of the Church does. However i believe that there is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ.
My point was how can we read scriptures like the one I stated and so many others where even the Lamb sings a song to the ONLY GOD who is ALMIGHTY.
I do not understand your statement, can you clarify.
Have a good day….
Artizan007,When I replied to you and said (You) – I really did mean – you. However, I would say that to anyone that believes in the Trinity for the only way one can believe in the Trinity is through deception in my opinion.
Paul
why cant i read the next page?
Hi yellow,
Welcome.
Dunno why but if you go to
“biblical discussions'
And then
“last post”
it will get you there.Where you can see the page numbers, just click the right most arrow. >
Although in order to read this you need to come to the last page
2Jn 1.3
” Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love….
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him in your house, and do not give him a greeting for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds”Jesus Christ is not God the Father.
God is the Father of Jesus Christ.
They are separate.
The teaching we teach is that of Jesus Christ.
We do not go beyond the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Those that do are workers of evil.
Trinity is not the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Oneness is not the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Salvation by faith alone is not the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Salvation through the Spirit baptism alone is not the teaching of Jesus Christ.
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