The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,17:45)

Many don't know that Jesus (The Word) was even created as the first of all creation and after such everything that was created was created by Him. (Pro 8:22)  The LORD3068 possessed7069 me in the beginning7225 of his way,1870 before6924 his works4659 of old.4480, 227 The word Possessed means: qânâh kaw-naw' A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: – attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily. Paul

Hi trettep,
The scripture you quote in Proverbs relates to Wisdom and not the Son of God. He is filled with Wisdom, which is one of the characters of the Spirit of God.

1Cor 1.24
” Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God”

[NickHassan]

Hi
2Tim 2.23
” But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that these produce quarrels”

Trinity is a theory, a vain speculation. Best left alone.

[trettep]

Nick – I believe that Jesus was created by the Father as the beginning of creation and through whom everything created would be created.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
Scripture never says Yeshua was created but begotten, though calls him “the firstborn of all creation”

[Cubes]

Hey Artizan007, I am with you on your last post (page 152), also with one of your posts on Daniel 10 with regards to spiritual warfare. Don't remember which thread that was. I agree that as humans, we have an innate ability to avoid obeying direct orders. We'll squirm and do everything else…even if it expends more energy and time than do what is called for. Same with those spiritual warfare scenarios you presented.

I was part of a small group that wanted to do something to the glory of God. You wouldn't believe the ideas that were presented: Among which were…go to a laundromat and pay for people's wash, hand people hot chocolate and a newspaper on their way to work, buy doughnuts for the local police station (yeah… and they'd throw it right out after they get the swat team and dogs to check it out), etc. We've done car washings and what-nots. (Yard sweeping or snow shoveling for the elderly is actually helpful to them so I am for that).

Come on! How about the simple, straight forward instructions, feed the poor, take care of widows, visit the sick and those that are in prison…. even our neighbors and the elderly who are cooped up in nursing homes… it was like pulling teeth to get people to become involved because it requires commitment in most cases…. so let's go drop quarters in someone's wash…and give that which cost us nothing…

All good ideas but not what Jesus said so you can see it's more done to avoid doing the real thing. And I am just as bad.

Same with prayer/spiritual warfare.

The last time I was told let's go walk around a neighborhood in prayer. I clearly told my friends, “I'll see you all later.” Same with the doughnuts to the police station. Whatever happened to going into your closet and praying? Or the corporate one where people gather at a private place to pray (the upper room)?

I am sorry but some of these are shenanigans my little daughter pulls on me and I no doubt, on the Father. We've got to grow up and stop playing games and using delay tactics. The old, if-I-look-busy-then-I-must-be-accomplishing-something-worthwhile mentality. To obey is better than sacrifice.

In a way it seems even to apply to the Trinity. Let's not just take God at his word… let's help him along and do it better…> three Gods in 1 instead of One God in all.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2005,21:45)

Hi trettep, Scripture never says Yeshua was created but begotten, though calls him “the firstborn of all creation”

Scripture as I know it doesn't mention the word “Yeshua” directly but the verses I mentioned in Proverbs 8:22 are of Him.

Paul

[Cubes]

And I forgot to say, tucking a tract into the doughnut box, newspaper, on the laundromat, etc.
Come on, do we have to bribe people to hear this glorious message? We make the message of no effect by our traditions…almost apologising for it. And largely it is probably because we don't really know the Master as we ought.

I was reading the account in one of the gospels how John the Baptist was just beheaded by Herod, how the disciples had gathered to Jesus and he wanted them to get away to go be by themselves somewhere because I can imagine that everyone was pretty heavily affected. Well, the people followed them anyway because they wanted to be near Jesus… he couldn't get rid of them. They were there so long that it was obvious that they'd gotten hungry and I guess there was no McDonald's around so the disciples thought they should be sent away to fend for themselves. Jesus thought they should be fed. One of the disciples thought a lot of bread should be purchased to feed them… and Jesus asked what was available, and that led to the fishes and the loaves miracle, to the glory of the Father in the Son.
Jesus then did eventually get away by himself until he saw the disciples having trouble on the water.

I got the sense when I read this account that this was real life in every sense of the word, not a rehearsal or acting a part. Jesus fed the multidude out of compassion as there was no other option. They also came for the Master, not for the perks or the music, or the balloons and face painting and what-nots, and were blessed in so doing.

By all means we should be generous and give, we should be joyful but there is a time for everything.

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,22:41)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2005,21:45) Hi trettep, Scripture never says Yeshua was created but begotten, though calls him “the firstborn of all creation” Scripture as I know it doesn't mention the word “Yeshua” directly but the verses I mentioned in Proverbs 8:22 are of Him. Paul

Hi trettep,
It certainly is tempting to ascribe these verses to Yeshua but what evidence do you have for your statement of fact? It is also true that all of God's work from the beginning is infused with Wisdom which these verses say.
As I said Wisdom is of God and Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of Wisdom as also were some of the disciples[Acts 6.3]

[trettep]

Nick,

Can you show me where the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God?

Paul

[NickHassan]

hi TT,
It does not say “Jesus is the Word of God”
But it does say
Rev 19.11f
“And I saw heaven opened ;and behold a white horse and he who sat on it is called faithful and true…and his name is called the Word of God….and he treads the winepress of the fierce wrath of God and on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written
'King of Kings and Lord of Lords' “
And it does say
1Jn 1
” What was from the beginning , what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life-and that life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was wioth the Father and is manifested to us-what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also;that you also may have fellowship with us;and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ”
and
Jn 1.1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God”
14
” and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we held his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,00:46)

hi TT, It does not say “Jesus is the Word of God” But it does say Rev 19.11f “And I saw heaven opened ;and behold a white horse and he who sat on it is called faithful and true…and his name is called the Word of God….and he treads the winepress of the fierce wrath of God and on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords' “ And it does say 1Jn 1 ” What was from the beginning , what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life-and that life was menifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was wioth the Father and is manifested to us-what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also;that you also may have fellowship with us;and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ” and Jn 1.1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God” 14 ” and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we held his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”

Well hopefully you can see my point then why Proverbs 8:22 is talking about Jesus. It doesn't say it specifically but its about Him.

Paul

[NickHassan]

No trettep,
I don't.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,01:26)

No trettep, I don't.

Its ok Nick, I saved the best for last:

1Co 1:30 But of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

So if Jesus was made Wisdom then Proverbs 8:22 is talking about Jesus.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Possibly but not definitely I say.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The problem is that Proverbs 1-9 is an essay on Wisdom. Wisdom is portayed as a woman in Prov 8-9 who calls to all to partake of her blessings. To take some verses from them and interpret them as the Son of God is to rob their fullness. It also presents Yeshua in only one of his amazing facets.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,02:21)

Hi, The problem is that Proverbs 1-9 is an essay of Wisdom. Wisdom is portayed as a woman in Prov 8-9 who calls to all to partake of her blessings. To take some verses from them and interpret them as the Son of God is to rob their fullness. It also presents Yeshua in only one of his amazing facets.

Its ok Nick – its something I understand.  I don't expect everyone to understand what I know. Also, its probably a bit off subject of this thread.

Paul

[Artizan007]

Hi Trettep,

You asked for a scritpture that says that Jesus is the Word of God. Well this does not say exactly “Jesus is the Word of God” but implies that He is… that is one of his names

Revelation 19:13 says: The robe he wore was covered with blood. His name is “The Word of God.”

Is that helpful.

[trettep]

Quote (Artizan007 @ May 19 2005,04:01)

Hi Trettep, You asked for a scritpture that says that Jesus is the Word of God. Well this does not say exactly “Jesus is the Word of God” but implies that He is… that is one of his names Revelation 19:13 says: The robe he wore was covered with blood. His name is “The Word of God.” Is that helpful.

Thanks Artizan007. Yes its always helpful. I do know that Jesus is the Word of God. I'm was trying to help Nick understand a bit more as he was looking for something more literal and I was showing him there isn't nothing that says Jesus is the Word directly (at least so far as I know).

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 19 2005,03:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,02:21) Hi, The problem is that Proverbs 1-9 is an essay of Wisdom. Wisdom is portayed as a woman in Prov 8-9 who calls to all to partake of her blessings. To take some verses from them and interpret them as the Son of God is to rob their fullness. It also presents Yeshua in only one of his amazing facets. Its ok Nick – its something I understand.  I don't expect everyone to understand what I know.  Also, its probably a bit off subject of this thread.   Paul

Hi trettep,

What you “know” should be provable from scripture too.

No one is able to make a stand based solely on his own understanding or inspiration surely?

We are one body.

[Proclaimer]

I agree. If we cannot prove it from scripture then it can still be a belief, but one that is not necessary to believe, even if it is true.

Regarding Jesus being the Word of God, does it not say in John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, [ Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

&

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

The gospel of John goes to great lengths to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God and even the Word.

But Christ as Wisdom is not really proven by the biblical writers to the degree that Christ being the Word is. To me that says that belief that Christ is the Word is important, but Christ as Wisdom is not that important, otherwise we would find biblical writers defending it or teaching it to a noticable degree.

However we do find that many 2nd century apostles did teach that Christ is Wisdom and expanded a lot on what was written in the first century and the OT about God, the Word, and terms such as the firstborn of all creation etc.

I myself have on previous occassion also said (as trettep has said) that I believe Yeshua to be Wisdom and I still believe that to be the case. But it is an opinion that I hold that is all. I do not wish to cause any division regarding this matter. If someone disagees, then to me it matters very little. What is important is that we believe that Yeshua is the son of God and the messiah and that we are united in God's Spirit in that belief

My evidence regarding Christ being Wisdom is small and I will post my reasons on the 'Who is Jesus' discussion.

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