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Hi A7,
I guess it relates to his outer man. He is Son of MAN. His body is the outer man. He grew up as an infant and child and endured suffering and discipline to learn too. The body surely rules our soul till we are able to grow towards some maturity. We cannot think as individuals or love and believe or communicate till our physical shell develops along that path surely.
He was ready almost at the age of 12 and knew who his real Father was but not given power till 30. It is encouraging that our saviour has walked in our shoes in all ways so that we can walk in his too. Even in the garden he was still truly human and he pleaded for his life to be spared.Heb 5.1″ For every high priest taken from among MEN is appointed on behalf of MEN in things pertaining to God;in aorder to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;he can deal gently with the errant and misguided, since he is also beset with weakness;and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the paople, so also for himself.And no one takes the honor to himself but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.
So also Christ did not glorify himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to him
' You are My son. Today I have begotten you”
Just as it also says in another passage
'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchisidek'
IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH he offered up prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save him FROM DEATH, and he was heard because of his piety. Although he was a son he learned obedience from the things which he suffered”What do others think?
Hi\,
Is 53 describes Jesus before he was anointed of God's Spirit.
” For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot,and like a root out of parched ground. He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him. He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, and like one from whom men hide their face, he was despised and we did not esteem him.”Hi,
Many would wish Jesus had said many things he did not say.They would speculate and infer and try to put those words in his mouth.He did not say he was the Father.
He did not say he was the same as his Father.
He did not say he was of the same substance as the Father.He did say he is the Son of God.
He did say he is the Christ.Why would we not believe him? To whom else can we go?
Hi,
Acts 10.38
“You know Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil;for God was with him”So did God anoint one person of a trinity with another?
How bizarre!
Or was God with Jesus as the indwelling Spirit of God?Sorry,
Got that wrong. Trinity theory says there are three equal persons in the one God.
” You know Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power..”So the scripture should read
“One equal member of the trinity was anointed by the trinity with another equal member of the trinity”Those who fear God will recognise this is ridiculous.
Hi,
1 Cor 11 3
” …and God is the head of Christ..”
2Cor 12.19
“..Actually it is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ..”
Gal 3.26
” For you all are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus”
Eph 5.20
” always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father”Now if you believe in trinity theory then “God” is three persons in one God, all of the same substance and equal. All of these scriptures above speak of God so they must relate to the trinity. Yet each of them speaks of God as well as Jesus who you say is part of God. How can that be?
When scripture speaks of God then it is speaking of that trinity surely in your scheme of things. You say Jesus is God and the Spirit is God too. How do you know which part of trinity God “God” in scripture refers to? You cannot have it both ways-say that God is a trinity and then use God in the bible as just the Father.
You also introduce confusion if you say God is a trinity and yet are allowed to choose whether “God” refers to the Father or this trinity in the bible. It is dishonest to say God is a trinity and yet relate every reference to God in the Bible to the Father.
The plain truth is that trinity theory does not fit with the natural reading of scripture. The word “trinity” cannot be substituted in the bible for any or every reference to “God” and yet that should be the simplest proof of the theory if it was true.
Wake up folks.
Hi,
Phil 2 .5f
” Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who though he existed in the form of God ,did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself ,taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men, and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Therefore also God highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”Some read the first part of this scripture as saying Jesus always had equality with the Father despite the clear indication he did not and did not seek it.
The question has to be asked if you believe that he did have equality with the Father then how can he be given greater honour than that, as the latter part of the scripture indicates? Can he then be made greater than he was if he already was as great as the Father? Is he then now greater than the Father? And if so how can the Father bless the Son if he is made greater than Him?
What nonsense.
Just the use of Father and Son implies two distinct entities. Trinitarians cannot know either the Father nor the Son if they can't see them distinctly.
Yes that could be the case if they see no distinction. However many do acknowledge that the Father and son are different personalities, it's just that they mistakenly think that these personalities are the same being or substance which is really weird and makes no sense when compared with scripture.
One word describes that doctrine, CONFUSION.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father in Heaven and its through His Spirit that one IS God. For the Father is God and everything that has His Spirit is also God!
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;“God” is a term applied to the Father of which is named the entire Family (Ruling Family – Kingdom) of God. Everyone that has the Father's DIVINE CHARACTER/ATTITUDE (Holy Spirit) is also in that Family (Kingdom) of God!
A great comparison are the historical traditional family names of Americans – whereby the fathers name is applied to all that are his descendants within the family. For example – Joe Shmoe is the father of the Shmoe family. His children receive his attributes of character when they are born and are part of the Shmoe Family or the family of Shmoe. Its simliar with the Father in Heaven (God) – everyone that is Born Again that receives the Holy Spirit (God's Divine Character/Attitude – Holy Spirit) is a member of the Family (Kingdom) of God.
Notice the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit:
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Paul
Hi trettep,
Those scriptures are really great in helping to explain who the holy spirit is. Mind posting them in the Q About the HS thread.
It's hard to change the thinking about the third person because we've been marinating in it so long. But hopefully reading these scriptures and seeing the giver of the Spirit would help get us back on the right track.
Perhaps Trinitarians feel that I/we deny the holy spirit by saying he is not a third member of a trinity. But I/we do not deny the holy spirit as we couldn't be children of God without his spirit. We simply acknowledge the Spirit to be the Father's Spirit in origin, rather than a third equal person of a God.
This also demonstrate that there is but One God from whom all derive and have their being…which is consistent with the rest of Scripture from the Old to the New Testament.As for Nick's earlier statement on the page regarding Phil 2:5-11, that is another equation that our fellow trinitarians have to reconcile. I posed the question on Christian Forum so I could be sure to get some feedback from their domain. I haven't had a chance to visit but I will check back and see what they have to say for themselves how Christ could be said to be Highly Exalted if he was always highly exalted to begin with?
Many don't know that Jesus (The Word) was even created as the first of all creation and after such everything that was created was created by Him.
(Pro 8:22) The LORD3068 possessed7069 me in the beginning7225 of his way,1870 before6924 his works4659 of old.4480, 227
The word Possessed means:
qânâh
kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: – attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.Paul
Just a scripture that places a distinction between the Ancient of Days and One like the Son of Man, we know as Jesus.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one like the Son of man] came with the clouds of heaven, and {came to the Ancient of days}, and 'they' brought him near before him.
14 And there was [given him] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Here is how I see the Persons related to in this vision:
God the Father is the Ancient of Days
Jesus Christ is the one like the Son of ManJesus is brought before the Ancient of Days and given dominion, authority and a kingdom… am I correct in saying this?
How can these be the same person?
How can they have the same authority? (presuming 'them' to be angels or servants of God)If He is as/like the Ancient of Days and equal in status then why was he brought before Him who was on the throne or as it says in the ASV version – presented before him, why not just walk in himself. Also why would God give this Son of Man, (who is supposed to be of equal status) dominion, authority, glory and a kingdom? Surely He would already have this if their status was equal.
This passage is one among many that does not make any sense unless, God the Father, the ancient of Days has all authority and he can give it out to whom he wishes.
Just a thought.
Quote (Artizan007 @ May 18 2005,18:37) Just a scripture that places a distinction between the Ancient of Days and One like the Son of Man, we know as Jesus. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one like the Son of man] came with the clouds of heaven, and {came to the Ancient of days}, and 'they' brought him near before him.
14 And there was [given him] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Here is how I see the Persons related to in this vision:
God the Father is the Ancient of Days
Jesus Christ is the one like the Son of ManJesus is brought before the Ancient of Days and given dominion, authority and a kingdom… am I correct in saying this?
How can these be the same person?
How can they have the same authority? (presuming 'them' to be angels or servants of God)If He is as/like the Ancient of Days and equal in status then why was he brought before Him who was on the throne or as it says in the ASV version – presented before him, why not just walk in himself. Also why would God give this Son of Man, (who is supposed to be of equal status) dominion, authority, glory and a kingdom? Surely He would already have this if their status was equal.
This passage is one among many that does not make any sense unless, God the Father, the ancient of Days has all authority and he can give it out to whom he wishes.
Just a thought.
The Father is the source of all power and authority. Its His Spirit that is in everything that is called “GOD”:Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;Its the Father that is the source of all that is Good:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
I have repeated here before that the Gospel is about entering into the Kingdom of God. If you look at verse 15 above you will see the word “family”. The Kingdom of God is a Family. That is WHY we see the words “FATHER” and “SON” referred to so much in the New Testament. Its that we can be born into that Kingdom (which is a ruling Family). The core of the Gospel is that message that one can be born into the very Family of God and LITERAL SONS OF GOD!!! How AWESOME that is!
Paul
Quote (trettep @ May 18 2005,15:32) The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father in Heaven and its through His Spirit that one IS God. For the Father is God and everything that has His Spirit is also God! Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;“God” is a term applied to the Father of which is named the entire Family (Ruling Family – Kingdom) of God. Everyone that has the Father's DIVINE CHARACTER/ATTITUDE (Holy Spirit) is also in that Family (Kingdom) of God!
A great comparison are the historical traditional family names of Americans – whereby the fathers name is applied to all that are his descendants within the family. For example – Joe Shmoe is the father of the Shmoe family. His children receive his attributes of character when they are born and are part of the Shmoe Family or the family of Shmoe. Its simliar with the Father in Heaven (God) – everyone that is Born Again that receives the Holy Spirit (God's Divine Character/Attitude – Holy Spirit) is a member of the Family (Kingdom) of God.
Notice the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit:
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Paul
Hi trettep,The Son of God never was or became his Father. He remains the only begotten Son filled with the Spirit of God. He is the most glorious vessel ever to contain the Glory of God. He has his own divine status and nature separate from the Father.
We too can follow him and become in him vessels too for the Spirit of God. Neither do we become God but we become as Jesus is, lesser sons of God. We do not become that God.
2Tim 2.20f
“Now in a large house there are not only gold vessels and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from these things ,he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work”The vessels, even if they are glorious, do not have much value in a a house unless they are usable by the Master , who is God. They can only be ornaments. But the house of the Master uses every cleansed vessel to be containers of His Spirit poured out in power and wisdom and strength for all.
The Son of God allowed himself to be emptied that he might be filled with the Father's Spirit for the Father's purposes. He was and is a useful vessel and servant to the Glory of God. We are of the household of God for His use and His glory, not our own.
The vessel does not compare to the contents in glory.
Quote (Artizan007 @ May 18 2005,18:37) Just a scripture that places a distinction between the Ancient of Days and One like the Son of Man, we know as Jesus. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one like the Son of man] came with the clouds of heaven, and {came to the Ancient of days}, and 'they' brought him near before him.
14 And there was [given him] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Here is how I see the Persons related to in this vision:
God the Father is the Ancient of Days
Jesus Christ is the one like the Son of ManJesus is brought before the Ancient of Days and given dominion, authority and a kingdom… am I correct in saying this?
How can these be the same person?
How can they have the same authority? (presuming 'them' to be angels or servants of God)If He is as/like the Ancient of Days and equal in status then why was he brought before Him who was on the throne or as it says in the ASV version – presented before him, why not just walk in himself. Also why would God give this Son of Man, (who is supposed to be of equal status) dominion, authority, glory and a kingdom? Surely He would already have this if their status was equal.
This passage is one among many that does not make any sense unless, God the Father, the ancient of Days has all authority and he can give it out to whom he wishes.
Just a thought.
Absolutely right A7,
The Son of God is raised to the highest place in the kingdom of God. But he never becomes that God.ps trettep,
2Tim 2 21 tells us we must cleanse ourselves to become vessels useful for the Master. That is repentance and baptism prior to baptism in the Spirit. It is not the job of the glorious contents to do that washing.If you went to a wedding and saw dirty vessels being filled with superb wine would you say the quality of the wine would still be sufficient to drink?
Nick,
I'm not saying that the Son becomes the Father. I'm saying that the Spirit of the Father resides in the Sons. I think this subject is one that is at the core of the Gospel in regards to understanding.
Paul
Hi trettep,
Thank you for that essential clarification. I agree with the above.It mystifies me why you said:“everything that has His Spirit is also God”.
The contents of the vessel do not define or change the nature of the vessel surely?
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