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Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 02 2010,09:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2010,09:11) Hi TT,
Jesus identified God to the jews and our God does not change.
In Him there is no shadow of turning.
He is our God too.So your trinity god is an illusion and you should discard it .
Nick,The Church is Israel now. Take note that in Revelation the Church is called the New Jerusalem the Lamb's wife. The foundations of the city (wife) are the twelve apostles. The walls of the city (wife) are the twelve tribes of Israel.
God does not have two people. He has just one people which is the Church = new Jerusalem = wife = Israel.
God scattered physical Israel and left their house desolate as a judgment for rejecting their Messiah (Mk. 23:38: Lk. 13:35). Only those who believe may come into the Church but not because they are Jews (John 1:12).
God took the kingdom away from physical Israel and gave it to the Church (Matt. 8:12; 21:43).
thinker
Hi TT,
The gates of rev 21 are the twelve tribes.
The Bride comes FROM GOD in heaven for her husband.
The bridegroom is soon to return so get oilQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2010,14:30) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 02 2010,09:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2010,09:11) Hi TT,
Jesus identified God to the jews and our God does not change.
In Him there is no shadow of turning.
He is our God too.So your trinity god is an illusion and you should discard it .
Nick,The Church is Israel now. Take note that in Revelation the Church is called the New Jerusalem the Lamb's wife. The foundations of the city (wife) are the twelve apostles. The walls of the city (wife) are the twelve tribes of Israel.
God does not have two people. He has just one people which is the Church = new Jerusalem = wife = Israel.
God scattered physical Israel and left their house desolate as a judgment for rejecting their Messiah (Mk. 23:38: Lk. 13:35). Only those who believe may come into the Church but not because they are Jews (John 1:12).
God took the kingdom away from physical Israel and gave it to the Church (Matt. 8:12; 21:43).
thinker
Hi TT,
The gates of rev 21 are the twelve tribes.
The Bride comes FROM GOD in heaven for her husband.
The bridegroom is soon to return so get oil
Nick,The point is that the Christ's Wife, the Church is the new covenant Israel.
thinker
pok said:
Quote tt believes that his god came up from where he was, taught about his father's kingdom, then when his god died, went back to his father's kingdom kicked him out, took over everything and left his father out to dry. I rejoice that the Lord has counted me worthy to be ridiculed for His sake.
I never said that the Son “kicked out” the Father. I have repeatedly said that THE FATHER DELIVERED all things into His Son's hands.
All things have been delivered to Me BY MY FATHER, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom THE SON WILLS to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
Lord, lay not this false witness to this person's charge.
thinker
Quote (princess of the king @ Feb. 17 2010,22:22) no marty, tt believes that his god came up from where he was, taught about his father's kingdom, then when his god died, went back to his father's kingdom kicked him out, took over everything and left his father out to dry.
does this sound like a good son?
PA good son would not make false accusations.
What you say Jack believes are total lies!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2010,19:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2010,14:12) Hi TT,
No He is not but He is the God of Jesus and his brothers.
God gave him all authority and Jersus passed on some of that authority to his followers.God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of the church.
Funny how some folk get them all mixed up
No Nick,Jesus passed some of His authority to His apostles. The apostles are gone Nick. Nobody possesses Christ's authority today.
thinker
Hi thethinker:And so, the following scriptures are no longer applicable to the church?
Quote Matthew 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Quote Matthew 18:18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 03 2010,09:20) Quote (princess of the king @ Feb. 17 2010,22:22) no marty, tt believes that his god came up from where he was, taught about his father's kingdom, then when his god died, went back to his father's kingdom kicked him out, took over everything and left his father out to dry.
does this sound like a good son?
PA good son would not make false accusations.
What you say Jack believes are total lies!
WJ
Keith,I am just telling them what Jesus Himself said. He said that all things have been delivered to Him “BY MY FATHER.” Jesus said also that the Father judges no man but has committed all judgment to the Son. Jesus clearly said that the Father JUDGES NO MAN but has committed ALL JUDGMENT to the Son.
The Son did not “kick out” the Father. The Father stepped aside of His own when He made Jesus our Lord.
Yet many here reject the Lord that the Father gave them.
thinker
John 1:18.
18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him.1Cor.8:5-6
5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.Just my opinion on the “trinity''.
Blessings.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,03:31) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 10 2010,11:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2010,09:58) Hi WJ,
Indeed Jesus perfectly showed God in nature and power.
God was in him
But God Himself could not love the way Jesus did. The greatest love is to lay down one's own life for another which you say God cannot do. Ergo, Jesus did not show the love of God “perfectly.” The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love.thinker
JackIt is amazing how they now “REDUCE” the Love of Jesus to less than the Fathers Love when he had the Spirit without measure and he was the one who “Willingly” gave his own life for us.
It never ceases the excuses for not giving the Son the same honour as the Father!
Blessings WJ
Thinker and WJ,You should both be ashamed of yourselves! The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love?
There is only ONE in existence that ever sacrificed something that was His own. EVERYTHING belongs to Jehovah. He is the one who made the sacrifice. How could anyone (including Jesus) ever truly sacrifice something of their own? God owns EVERYTHING! That includes your life and Jesus' life.
I pray you may receive understanding and forgiveness for this blasphemy
mike
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,22:01)
Hi WJ & thethinker:What about this, you go out and preach the gospel which states, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned…”,
Hi MartySorry I missed your post! I just hadn’t seen it!
When I got saved I was 19 and sitting in a pew for the first time in my life, and the Holy Spirit was upon me so strong that I was trembling! Without any church background or knowledge of the Trinity or with any help from man, I began to talk (pray) to Jesus as if he was standing right in front of me.
I asked him to forgive me of my sins and to take over my life! On the surface anyone witnessing my conversion without any anti-Trinitarian bias would say I was praying to God and giving my life to God! In fact I was! From that day forward I knew Jesus as my God and learned of the Father and Holy Spirit as my God shortly after! I was saved by Jesus and the Holy Spirit testified of him! There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. The Apostles preached Jesus and him crucified.
Many cannot see that for the Jew, a man who claimed that God was his own personal Father was a claim to being equal with God. John the narrator tells us this in John 5:18. Other wise what was so special about Peters revelation from the Father or the devils screaming for him not to torment them before their time. So when I heard of the Trinity I believed it because I could not see how Jesus was any different than the Father in nature, since it was Jesus that saved me, and it was Jesus that forgave me of my sins, and it was Jesus that baptised me in the Holy Spirit and fire!
For 36 years I have studied and heard all the arguments against the Trinity and I am yet to find a valid argument that disproves the “oneness” that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit share! In fact I am amazed at what extremes some will go to discredit or dishonour Jesus in defending their anti-Trinitarian stand. All the attributes of what and who God is, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are and have!
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,22:01)
And then after they are saved by confessing Jesus as their Lord, then you bring them to your church and tell them that unless they believe in the doctrine of “trinity” they can't be a member of “your church”?
Where do you get this from? 90 percent of Christianity is Trinitarian! The majority of churches in the world are Trinitarian! The majority of conversions in the world are through Trinitarians. The majority of money and wealth to the poor and needy are through Trinitarians. But for a few that have went out from among them and have become an island in themselves, all they can do is to act as if the Trinitarians are cursed by God with ignorance, yet the majority of the Fathers work is done through them. I think the opposers must be smoking something!
I think Kathi, t8, and Seeking go to a Trinitarian Church!
Anyway your question is bazaar because you are anti-Trinitarian yet you go to a Trinitarian Church. Having membership in a church is not a requirement for being saved and most Trinitarian Churches that I know do not forbid those who do not agree to come to the Church and fellowship!
If what you are asking is would they be refused to be able to teach or hold a place of leadership in the Church if they don’t hold to the Trinity, then probably so!
If you are Pastor of a Church and a Trinitarian wanted to teach in your Church, would you allow it? Are you a member of the Church that you say God told you that you will Pastor? If not, then how do you expect to become a Bishop of a Church that you are not a member? If so, then would they allow you to teach your anti-Trinitarian message?
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,22:01)
Rather foolish don't you think? They already a member of God's church if they confessed Jesus as their Lord.Love in Christ,
Marty
And that is what most Trinitarians believe. To me it seems rather foolish that you go to a Church that traditionally, God knows for how long, has held to the Trinitarian doctrine and that somehow you are going to change that.I assume that your whole point here was to take jabs at us. That’s okay, but maybe you can tell us Marty, are you as an anti-Trinitarian a member of a Trinitarian Church and why or why not?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2010,15:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,03:31) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 10 2010,11:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2010,09:58) Hi WJ,
Indeed Jesus perfectly showed God in nature and power.
God was in him
But God Himself could not love the way Jesus did. The greatest love is to lay down one's own life for another which you say God cannot do. Ergo, Jesus did not show the love of God “perfectly.” The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love.thinker
JackIt is amazing how they now “REDUCE” the Love of Jesus to less than the Fathers Love when he had the Spirit without measure and he was the one who “Willingly” gave his own life for us.
It never ceases the excuses for not giving the Son the same honour as the Father!
Blessings WJ
Thinker and WJ,You should both be ashamed of yourselves! The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love?
There is only ONE in existence that ever sacrificed something that was His own. EVERYTHING belongs to Jehovah. He is the one who made the sacrifice. How could anyone (including Jesus) ever truly sacrifice something of their own? God owns EVERYTHING! That includes your life and Jesus' life.
I pray you may receive understanding and forgiveness for this blasphemy
mike
MikeYou should be ashamed of yourself for lying against me.
Where have I or Jack ever said…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2010,15:49) The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love?
You also should be ashamed of yourself for discrediting Jesus for sacrificing his own life and blood for you on a tree!So Jesus life was not his to willingly give?
Lies my friend!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2010,15:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,03:31) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 10 2010,11:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2010,09:58) Hi WJ,
Indeed Jesus perfectly showed God in nature and power.
God was in him
But God Himself could not love the way Jesus did. The greatest love is to lay down one's own life for another which you say God cannot do. Ergo, Jesus did not show the love of God “perfectly.” The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love.thinker
JackIt is amazing how they now “REDUCE” the Love of Jesus to less than the Fathers Love when he had the Spirit without measure and he was the one who “Willingly” gave his own life for us.
It never ceases the excuses for not giving the Son the same honour as the Father!
Blessings WJ
Thinker and WJ,You should both be ashamed of yourselves! The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love?
There is only ONE in existence that ever sacrificed something that was His own. EVERYTHING belongs to Jehovah. He is the one who made the sacrifice. How could anyone (including Jesus) ever truly sacrifice something of their own? God owns EVERYTHING! That includes your life and Jesus' life.
I pray you may receive understanding and forgiveness for this blasphemy
mike
Hi AllThis is the kind of rhetoric that anti-Trinitarians have to resort to in order to hold on to their false doctrines.
Attacking the person and making false accusations and claiming blasphemy. Sounds like some other in the scriptures that responded to Jesus in that way and in fact tore their clothes.
Did you tear your clothes Mike?
Are you frustrated because you cannot hold a candle to your debate against Jacks knowledge of the scriptures?
Now Mike is claiming Jesus didn't sacrifice anything because it wasn't his to give!
Satans lies my friend.
Jesus is worthy of all honour and Glory and power for he alone is worthy and able to take the book!
WJ
Hi WJ,
You said:
Quote For 36 years I have studied and heard all the arguments against the Trinity and I am yet to find a valid argument that disproves the “oneness” that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit share! I'll ask you what I've been asking thethinker: Why was Stephen able to see Jesus but only the glory of God? And why wasn't the Holy Spirit present in heaven as a third of your Godhead?
You said:
Quote Where do you get this from? 90 percent of Christianity is Trinitarian! The majority of churches in the world are Trinitarian! To that I quote Jesus in Matthew:
Quote 13″Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2010,09:02) Where have I or Jack ever said… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2010,15:49)
The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love?
Hi WJ,Are you kidding? Where Jack said it is in the post I sent you. Along with your approving comments.
And you must not be reading the same debate I am, brother. I am slowly getting Jack down to the heart of it all. That is where the truth is. And the truth shall set you free, my friend.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2010,16:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2010,09:02) Where have I or Jack ever said… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2010,15:49)
The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love?
Hi WJ,Are you kidding? Where Jack said it is in the post I sent you. Along with your approving comments.
And you must not be reading the same debate I am, brother. I am slowly getting Jack down to the heart of it all. That is where the truth is. And the truth shall set you free, my friend.
peace and love,
mike
MikeYou like usual have totally misunderstood jacks point!
You think that you have the truth like all the rest.
This debate has been going on for centuries and obviously the ant-Trinitarians are loosing the battle because truth does prevail. That is why most are blessed and saved through the Trinitarian Churches!
You have not proven any truth more than any other that have come here.
So get your head out of the clouds man!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
I think the truth is in the Scriptures – plain for all to see. So save the opinions for when we debate, okay? In the mean time answer the Stephen question.
P.S. How did I misunderstand Jack's point – he said it very plainly.
peace and love,
mikeWJ,TT,
Quote The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love./QUOTE]
Both of you – please re-think what one you wrote and the other supported – hopefully this was just a “rush of blood to the head” moment.Nick,[QUOTE]Indeed Jesus perfectly showed God in nature and power.
Have you read what the Hebrews in the desert said to God when he used to speak to man directly:”Has any man talked with God and lived?” And for this reason God said they had spoken well – and subsequently withdrew himself and thereafter spoke through the Moses and the prophets.If we look directly at the Sun we will [be blinded] but we can look upon the Rays of the Sun and be blessed with it's life giving properties.
I guess you can see where this is going but just for the sake of [some]: The Power of God is the Supreme Power – Jesus Christ's power is a perfectly judge amount of God's power to maintain perfect interaction and life to mankind.Christ, if need be, could crank up his power by authority and the will of his father by means of the Holy Spirit but he would rather be wronged by his detractors than to 'scorch the earth' just to 'prove' himself right over any matter.
FIRST OF ALL I am a bible reader, certainly not a bible scholar. IT IS IN THIS VAIN I would like to ask some questions, make some statements, So as to get some responses.
I will number them to make it easier to respond.
1. For approximately two thousand years the Jews were God’s chosen people. And he revealed himself to them through the prophets.
2. God went into great detail how his temple was to be constructed, how sacrifices to him were to be done i.e. Moses.
3. The Jews were Unitarian in their belief, awaiting a promised messiah.
4. How could it be that through all the prophets he did not reveal his true nature clearly i.e. The Trinity? And if he did was he just being cryptic about it?
5. And this would be so even to the time of Jesus. Mark 12: 28 – 32 quotes 28 “Then one of the scribes came and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that he had answered well, asked him,” which is the first commandment of all? 29 Jesus answered him, the first of all commandments is. “Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. “Jump to 32. So the Scribe said to him. “Well said teacher, you have spoken the truth, for there is one God. And there is no other but he.”6 The scribe would have been speaking as a Unitarian?
7 Was Jesus being cryptic in his answer knowing there are two other persons as a Trinity that deserved all honor and praise?
8 If he was it is very close to an untruth. He would have known the understanding of the scribe, and he did not correct him?
9 So wouldn’t Jesus himself to that point be teaching a Unitarian belief?
10 And concerning the Holy Sprit, when Stephen had a view of heaven and saw the Father and Jesus at his right side where was the Holy Sprit? Would he not be there to confuse the beliefs at a later time?I know some of my points might seem simple minded, that being said I don’t believe the bible was writer just for bible scholars.
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