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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,18:09) Hi GM,
Are angels and sons of God not created beings?
Created – yes! Begotten – no!Other “sons” of God will have to be born-again and adopted.
Jesus already belongs.Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 15 2008,19:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,18:09) Hi GM,
Are angels and sons of God not created beings?
Are the Angels Sons of God, yes. Where they created, yes, by Jesus.
God will not share his glory with another. I believe part of God's glory is the face that he alone is the Creator of all. We are told this many, many times throughout the bible.God created *through* Jesus Christ. To me, this does not mean that Jesus did the actual WORK.
Hi Mandy,
John saw the glory of Jesus, not the Glory of God.
Jn1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,13:51) Hi Mandy,
You are right that God created through Jesus. God created.
Hi Nick,
How did God create the world through Jesus?
LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2008,05:51) Hi Mandy,
John saw the glory of Jesus, not the Glory of God.
Jn1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Agreed. Did I say that backwards somewhere? If so, I apologize. Yes, John spoke of Jesus' glory which is that of the only begotten Son. This is NOT God's glory which he will not share.Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2008,12:04) “Let US make man in our image.”
David,This passage has many explainations (one such explaination is given in the NIV Study Bible). This is not solid proof of Jesus' preexistence; not at all. If this one verse convinces you, I would encourage you to rethink your theology.
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2008,11:37) Hi LU,
Other sons of God of God were.[Jb38]
Why not the unique firstborn?
Interesting question for you Nick – did the unique firstborn Son of God have a name in heaven? I don't know if it's written, that is why I'm asking. Perhaps if we could locate a solid (not speculated) name for this being it would give more credence to the claim that this being actually was alive.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2008,18:32) Hi Mandy,
Did any other sons of God have names?
I don't know?But certainly one unique, begotten Son who helped CREATE would have had a name – don't 'cha think? Was Gabe more important than the “pre-Jesus”?
Hi MF
Sorry for the delayed reply. I have been away. I see there has been quite a bit of discussion going on in the John 1:1 thread. Since our discussion is a little off topic I brought it over from here…
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,14:50)
Thanks for pointing out that MISTAKE – I must have been tired when I wrote this, don’t have as much time as I would like to spend on this forum, so forgive me if I make a slight mistake from time to time.
Forgiven! But why do I feel like I am being set up for more spin?Anyway…
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,14:50)
I quess my real point here is that omnipotence, omniscience are intrinsic essential attributes of GOD. I believe that they are also unique to HIM.
If we consider omnipotence for instance, it must be possessed by one alone to truly be omnipotence. (imo)
So you do not believe these scriptures then…“All things are delivered unto me of my Father“: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27, Luke 10:22,
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “All power (exousia) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Matt 28:18
Far above all principality, and power, (exousia) and might, (dunamis) and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph 1:21
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities (exousia) and powers (dunamis) being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3:22
Why do the “Arians” always seek to envision Yahshua as less than he is? They envision him as less than the “Image of God” or the “express image of his person” or in your case you do not honor him for being “far above all principality, and power, (exousia) and might, (dunamis) and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come”. Unless I am misunderstanding you, you are saying he does not have “All Authority” and “All Power”.
For you say…
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,14:56)
I would say the power is OF GOD. The giving is FROM GOD. The delivery is through Son(s).There is no scripture that says the Father gave Yahshua the “ability or access” to all of his power, but instead says that “all things are given to him” and that “he has” all authority and power.
You say “The delivery is through Son(s)”, as if to make born again “adopted” sons equal to Yahshua in nature.
The Power that we have is of Christ. He has come to dwell in us and empower us with “his Power”.
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power (dunamis) of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Cor 12:9
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power (dunamis ) of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Cor 5:4
You guys don’t get it, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of God. Yahshua is not a mere human vessel as we are.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. John 3:34, 35 NET
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
The fact that Yahshua has the “Spirit without measure” and that the Father has given “all things” into his hand is proof of his Omnipotence”.
And here is one for the gainsayers…
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. he shall glorify me: “for he shall receive of mine”, and shall shew it unto you. “All things that the Father hath are mine”: therefore said I, “that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you”. John 16:13-15
Here we clearly see the Spirit which Yahshua has without measure is subject to him. The Spirit takes from Yahshua and gives to us. The Spirit of God is subservient to Yahshua. That’s because Yahshua is the Word/God that was and is with the Father.
Yahshua is “The Baptizer” of the Holy Spirit. He is the One “who sends” the Holy Spirit, and here is the Kicker, “HE IS THE SPIRIT”.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
And if *Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:9, 10“Now the Lord is that Spirit“: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Its scriptures like these that the enemy’s of the nature of Yahshua choke on or just dismiss because they contradict their theology. Either way you look at it, you loose.
If to you the Spirit here is a just a “power” or “force”, then you would be denying Paul’s own words.
If you say the Spirit here is merely the Father, then in light of John 16:13-15, the Father is subservient to Yahshua.There is “One Spirit” and “One God”. If the Spirit we have received is the Spirit of Yahshua, (There are many scriptures to support this), then Yahshua is not only “Omnipotent”, but also “Omniscient” and “Omnipresent”. Unless you want to say that the Spirit of God is not “Omnipotent”, “Omniscient” and “Omnipresent”. But that's another subject.
Now since you may say that all power does not mean “ALL Power”, then you should maybe do a study of the position that Yahshua has “At the right hand of God”, which beautifully pictures Yahshua restored to his previous glory with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God.
Right after Peter writes of the resurrection he says 1 Pt.3:22 Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having made subject to him”. If he is God the Father then they are already subjected to him, If he is only a man, then the ruling of the universe is in a humans hands. So it is as in Mt.28:18 all authority was given to him in both heaven and earth. This is something he did not have as he came to earth in a state of humility Phil.2:5-8. Source.
You see MF, Yahshua is not just an agent here. “He has all things”, for all things were created by him and for him. John 1:3. Col. 1:16
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,14:50) If it is shared then how is it omnipotence? How can more than one be said to be: the Almighty One Alone?
Omnipotent – as I understand it – means all powerful – in other words powerful above all other things.
Bingo! Three persons, One Spirit, One God. All sharing the same essence or substance that makes God, God.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,14:50) If two or more (three) are said to be all-powerful in a degree above all other things this meaning is lost when the persons in question use “I, me and my” instead of “we, us and our”.
To maintain purity of meaning you would have to say of any of these shared rulers – that they are part of the Almighty.
If any of them (Father, Son or Holy Spirit) were to say they alone were the Almighty – then there is internal conflict, one is now claiming a greater degree of omnipotence than the others.
To be correct they would have to say “we are the Almighty and none else”
However I do not see it stated in this way in scriptures.
Your reasoning is circular and not at all scriptural and actually puts limits on an infinite God. I suppose you would say the Spirit of God is not omnipotent? And I am quite sure that you also would say the “Spirit” is not God (as all “Arians” do), but an impersonal force or power. Of course they deny the scriptures that says God the Lord who is Spirit is that Spirit.“Now the Lord is that Spirit“: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Your circular reasoning ignores “Plurality of Oneness”! For example, the molecular structure of the entire universe which reveals the Glory of God, is made up of the “atom” which is plural in nature, Protons, Electrons, and Neutrons. Name one thing that is not plural, yet one. Even the number 1 is not alone, for it is a part of a group called numbers. There are many humans, yet “one humanity”. There are three persons, yet “One True God”. This may not appeal to your logic or your theology, but scripturally it is so when you take into account the whole of the Biblical data that we have.
Yahshua is God revealed to man. There is no amount of apologetics that can explain away why Yahshua said…
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father (God) also: and from henceforth “ye know him” (God), and have seen him (God). Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, (God) and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and “yet hast thou not known me, (God)” Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father (God)? John 14:7-9
This is why Thomas later on said…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.Thomas *said unto him*. Not said unto them.
This would have been a blasphemous statement for Thomas to be calling Yeshua God.
Yet Yeshua does not rebuke nor correct him for his words but says…
Jn 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because *thou hast seen me*, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.John the witness of this event neither corrects him in his writings nor explains why he said this.
What John does is write regarding this event the following…
Jn 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his
disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.John says this was a sign.
John here is revealing who this Monogenes “Unique One” is.
This same John that penned John 1:1, the Word that was with God and was God has now as the Word/God come in the flesh and is born a Son.
Yahshua has “All Authority” and “All Power”. Yahshua is Omnipotent.
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2008,19:22) Hi Mandy,
Is thought relevant evidence?
Well, I think that evidence shows that other sons in heaven were not named other than Gabe, perhaps the devil…..of course that doesn't mean they all didn't have names, we are just not privy to them.I bet there is an angel named Bob somewhere?
But my point being, if the ultimate son of God was present he surely would DESERVE a name and recognition as much as Gabe. Wouldn't you agree? Or are we not to even trust our logical deductions from such thought processes?
Come let us reason together….
Hi mandy,
Why should God have to meet our logical expectations?
We must find it written.
Trinity is notQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2008,05:45) Hi mandy,
Why should God have to meet our logical expectations?
We must find it written.
Trinity is not
I'm sorry, you mean it is not written that Jesus had a name prior to being born? That was the topic, not trinity. However that is the topic of this thread so I suppose our conversation should be muted here. 😉
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