The Trinity Doctrine

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2008,16:44)

Hi LU, You say 'Adam isn't said to have a nature of dust. “ But scripture says Gen3 '19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. ' ??

Hi Nick,
The dust has to do with the basics of our composition and decompositjon, not our nature.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Does you interpretation deny what is written?
Jesus inherited from Mary so he could truly be Son of Man.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2008,17:08)

Hi LU, Does you interpretation deny what is written? Jesus inherited from Mary so he could truly be Son of Man.

Hi Nick,
No. He was Marys son.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
He was conceived of Mary.
Son of Man.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2008,17:34)

Hi LU, He was conceived of Mary. Son of Man.

Yes Nick,
Mary is man not god.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
So Mary was of earth and Adam.
Mother of Jesus, not surrogate mother.
Our overcoming saviour-the captain of our salvation.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2008,09:08)

Hi LU, Does you interpretation deny what is written? Jesus inherited from Mary so he could truly be Son of Man.

This is true.

Kathi,
Either he was truly conceived and received 23 chromosomes from Mary (thus became a new and *unique* born individual) OR he merely took Mary's flesh (thus becoming a human soley based on skin.  Not inheriting our condition OR nature)?  It doesn't make sense.

The reason Mary didn't sweat what was conceived in her was because she believed she was pregnant with the son of God!  Her pregnancy was compared to that of her cousin, Elizabeth.

Was Elizabeth also carrying a preexistent John?

You said it yourself, when you cross two natures (divine and human) you will get a unique outcome!  We agree on this!

God (divine) + Mary (human) = divine human (new creation)

We will follow…..

[david]

Quote

Either he was truly conceived and received 23 chromosomes from Mary (thus became a new and *unique* born individual) OR he merely took Mary's flesh (thus becoming a human soley based on skin.  Not inheriting our condition OR nature)?  It doesn't make sense.

Mandy, what precident are you basing this on?  Is this not a unique situation that took place by God's hand?

Mandy, listen:
We have Adam's “condition or nature” as you say.  We inherited it from him.  He was human. We're his offspring.  Therefore, logically, we had his condition or nature.
Yet, Adam did not have to inherit that condition or nature from another human did he?  Is Adam not a human?  Does he not have the same condition or nature we have because he wasn't the result of human sexual relations?  If that were true, it would result in a paradox, because if Adam isn't human, none of us (his offspring) could be human either.  Hence, this is false thinking to conclude that you have to be the result of human copulation to truly be Human.

Just as God could create adam (a real true human) so he can play a part in forming Jesus (a real true human while on earth).
God can do it.  We're not saying I can do it, or you can do it.  But God can create humans Mandy.  He's done it before.

Quote

You said it yourself, when you cross two natures (divine and human) you will get a unique outcome!

What scripture is this based on?  Any?  Further, what scripture says that God's nature was crossed with human nature?  Any?  No.  Again, more assumptions.

david.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 12 2008,19:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2008,09:08) Hi LU, Does you interpretation deny what is written? Jesus inherited from Mary so he could truly be Son of Man. This is true. Kathi, Either he was truly conceived and received 23 chromosomes from Mary (thus became a new and *unique* born individual) OR he merely took Mary's flesh (thus becoming a human soley based on skin.  Not inheriting our condition OR nature)?  It doesn't make sense. The reason Mary didn't sweat what was conceived in her was because she believed she was pregnant with the son of God!  Her pregnancy was compared to that of her cousin, Elizabeth. Was Elizabeth also carrying a preexistent John? You said it yourself, when you cross two natures (divine and human) you will get a unique outcome!  We agree on this! God (divine) + Mary (human) = divine human (new creation) We will follow…..

I don't believe that the Son of God took on a unique nature but continued in His original nature which was the exact representatin of His Father's nature. A divine nature.

I do believe that the scripture tells us that He existed in the form (visual appearance) of God and took on the form (visual appearance) of man and became flesh.

BTW, the word “form” is defined here:
Strong's Number: 3444 morfh/
Original Word Word Origin
morfh/ perhaps from the base of (3313) (through the idea of adjustment of parts)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Morphe mor-fay'
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 4:742,607

Definition
the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
external appearance

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Was Jesus being an exact representation of God not just after his vessel had been thus filled?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2008,16:05)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 12 2008,19:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 13 2008,09:08) Hi LU, Does you interpretation deny what is written? Jesus inherited from Mary so he could truly be Son of Man. This is true. Kathi, Either he was truly conceived and received 23 chromosomes from Mary (thus became a new and *unique* born individual) OR he merely took Mary's flesh (thus becoming a human soley based on skin.  Not inheriting our condition OR nature)?  It doesn't make sense. The reason Mary didn't sweat what was conceived in her was because she believed she was pregnant with the son of God!  Her pregnancy was compared to that of her cousin, Elizabeth. Was Elizabeth also carrying a preexistent John? You said it yourself, when you cross two natures (divine and human) you will get a unique outcome!  We agree on this! God (divine) + Mary (human) = divine human (new creation) We will follow….. I don't believe that the Son of God took on a unique nature but continued in His original nature which was the exact representatin of His Father's nature.  A divine nature. I do believe that the scripture tells us that He existed in the form (visual appearance) of God and took on the form (visual appearance) of man and became flesh. BTW, the word “form” is defined here: Strong's Number:  3444 morfh/ Original Word Word Origin  morfh/   perhaps from the base of (3313) (through the idea of adjustment of parts) Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling  Morphe   mor-fay'     Parts of Speech TDNT  Noun Feminine   4:742,607 Definition the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision external appearance LU

So Jesus was invisible before he was born of Mary? Because God is invisible…..

You don't want to believe that the Son took on any of Mary's nature? That is very curious to me. He was born of a women under law; he felt hunger, felt pain and temptation, could bleed and die. But his nature remained divine? I don't think so.

Call me simple-minded, but when God tells us that he has a Son and that Son was born of a women – then I imagine the Son is both God and man. Son of God AND Son of Man.

[Lightenup]

Hi Mandy,
I don't think God is invisible and that it is impossible to see Him. Moses has seen the unseen, God has told us that He has allowed Moses to see His form. I think that God doesn't allow man in general to see His form or see Him clearly. I tend to think that angels can see Him. God doesn't want man to make graven images like man has done in the past with their bronze and gold and stone, etc statues of their “gods.”

Mary gave the Son his fleshly body. A body is what feels hunger, pain, temptation, bleeds and breathes and dies. My dog feels hunger, pain, temptation (you should see her when she is caught standing on the counter eating butter…what a guilty dog look), can breathe, bleed and die. The body causes those things to happen, not the nature, IMO. The inner spirit of man can also feel pain but it is emotional pain, the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death, the inner spirit of man can be tempted also as well as the flesh. I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation.

He became the Son of God as the firstborn of God before creation. He became the Son of Man from His birth through Mary. Just some of my thoughts anyway.

Love,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Scripture disagrees with you.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 11:27
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

[Tiffany]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 14 2008,16:57)

Hi Mandy, I don't think God is invisible and that it is impossible to see Him.  Moses has seen the unseen, God has told us that He has allowed Moses to see His form.  I think that God doesn't allow man in general to see His form or see Him clearly.  I tend to think that angels can see Him.  God doesn't want man to make graven images like man has done in the past with their bronze and gold and stone, etc statues of their “gods.” Mary gave the Son his fleshly body.  A body is what feels hunger, pain, temptation, bleeds and breathes and dies.  My dog feels hunger, pain, temptation (you should see her when she is caught standing on the counter eating butter…what a guilty dog look), can breathe, bleed and die.  The body causes those things to happen, not the nature, IMO.  The inner spirit of man can also feel pain but it is emotional pain, the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death, the inner spirit of man can be tempted also as well as the flesh.  I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation. He became the Son of God as the firstborn of God before creation.  He became the Son of Man from His birth through Mary. Just some of my thoughts anyway. Love, Kathi

Kathi! I have always thought that nobody has seen God or even seen His form. An Angel gave the ten Commandments to
Moses.
Acts 7:38 This is he who was in the congregation of the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our father, the one that received the living Oracles to give to us.
Peace and Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 14 2008,20:01)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 14 2008,16:57) Hi Mandy, I don't think God is invisible and that it is impossible to see Him.  Moses has seen the unseen, God has told us that He has allowed Moses to see His form.  I think that God doesn't allow man in general to see His form or see Him clearly.  I tend to think that angels can see Him.  God doesn't want man to make graven images like man has done in the past with their bronze and gold and stone, etc statues of their “gods.” Mary gave the Son his fleshly body.  A body is what feels hunger, pain, temptation, bleeds and breathes and dies.  My dog feels hunger, pain, temptation (you should see her when she is caught standing on the counter eating butter…what a guilty dog look), can breathe, bleed and die.  The body causes those things to happen, not the nature, IMO.  The inner spirit of man can also feel pain but it is emotional pain, the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death, the inner spirit of man can be tempted also as well as the flesh.  I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation. He became the Son of God as the firstborn of God before creation.  He became the Son of Man from His birth through Mary. Just some of my thoughts anyway. Love, Kathi Kathi!  I have always thought that nobody has seen God or even seen His form. An Angel gave the ten Commandments to Moses. Acts 7:38 This is he who was in the congregation of the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our father, the one that received the living Oracles to give to us. Peace and Love Irene

I agree with you sis Irene on the invisibility of God stating that no man has seen God or can see as per 1 Tim 6:16

“who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal power. Amen”

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2008,12:03)

Quote Either he was truly conceived and received 23 chromosomes from Mary (thus became a new and *unique* born individual) OR he merely took Mary's flesh (thus becoming a human soley based on skin. Not inheriting our condition OR nature)? It doesn't make sense. Mandy, what precident are you basing this on? Is this not a unique situation that took place by God's hand?

Hey David,

Read the gospels. Keep it simple, dude.

Unique situation in that God's precious holy Spirit touched Mary and she conceived HIS SON, but everything else was status quo (otherwise we would have been told).

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi,

Quote

don't think God is invisible and that it is impossible to see Him.

I see that Nick has given some excellent scriptures for you to look at regarding God's “form”. This is how God exists normally. So if Jesus is in God's form, then this rules out Jesus being an angel, the light, or a messenger of any kind.

Quote

Mary gave the Son his fleshly body.

Is this all that you gave to your son, Kathi? Does your son not also express various attributes of you?

Quote

the inner spirit of man doesn't bleed and die a physical death but a spiritual death,

I'm not sure what difference it makes to separate these two “deaths” out? But when a human being dies, their body returns to the dust and their spirit ceases to live on (i.e., the dead “know” nothing).

Are we trying to put more importance on the spiritual man versus the physical body of the man? I'm confused. One cannot exist without the other in this realm, anyway.

To the follower's of Christ, he was a man, albeit a different sort of man.

Luke 8:25

25And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Quote

I believe that the inner spirit of Christ was the divine nature of the Son that existed before creation.

I know you believe this, but it is not in-line with the teaching of true conception.
We know Jesus was conceived.
His birth was compared to that of Elizabeth (did John's nature exist before creation?)
Can you separate YOUR sons nature from his body?

Quote

He became the Son of God as the firstborn of God before creation. He became the Son of Man from His birth through Mary.

He *also* became the Son of God as the first to be raised from the DEAD. Jesus is the firstborn from the DEAD!.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Romans 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is Jesus the firstborn over creation AND the firstborn from the dead?
How does this make sense and fit into the story of our salvation? What possible reason would there be for Jesus to be born first over everything that was created. Did God really need a helping-hand in creation? No! He used his own hand to lay out the foundations of the world! So what possible function would Jesus have existing before he came to earth? Was he there to keep God company?

Jesus clearly had a function in being the firstborn from the dead! If he never passed through that gate…..we would never pass through either.

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Jesus is the gate that leads to life. He's passed through death unto life. He gives that life to us. So now we see the value in his physical and spiritual death (indeed he gave up the ghost!).

But none of us exist before our physical births. In this way we cannot see the value of Jesus' life before he came to us as God's Son.

As for becoming the Son of Man through Mary, he certainly did. However, Mary was more than just a flesh-doning-factory for a previous lifeform….. God could have made any “body” appear for Jesus' preexistent nature to inhabit….. Instead he wanted a true Son over his house (not like Moses was *although Moses is son, too, right?*).

God conceived Jesus with Mary.

Love,
Mandy

[gollamudi]

Hi Mandy,
Those are excellent points you have just quoted above on negating the literal preexistence of our Lord Jesus. People want to make Jesus a mythological figure who took birth more than one time in this creation and they assume that he appeared many times in this universe. Let me ask all of them what is the meaning of this verse in Col 1 ?

15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.

If he is the firstborn of all creation when was he ever created by God except he was born to a woman(created being) Mary and given preeminence in this whole creation?

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Are angels and sons of God not created beings?

[Tiffany]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,18:09)

Hi GM, Are angels and sons of God not created beings?

Are the Angels Sons of God, yes. Where they created, yes, by Jesus.

[Author]

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