The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
It is also plain that if Jesus Christ, the Son of God, 'came in the flesh' then he must have existed apart from the flesh before he partook of that flesh.

If that statement simply means that he was created when he was conceived, as we all are, it makes no sense to highlight that fact. We all are.

It has a deeper sense.

[Artizan007]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2005,01:45)

Welcome Artizan 007, Jesus Christ the Messiah was born as man, the Son of God sent by the Father and he was filled with the Spirit of God at his Baptism. He was of godly origins but was not the Father but was filled with the Spirit of God. He was the light, the way, the truth and the life. He revealed the nature and power of God to men and drew us to worship God, his God. Whatever is said of him in these verses is true. He was given complete authority in his Father's name. He was filled with wisdom, knowledge, discernment, peace and love by the Holy Spirit. He called his disciples his children and loved them as a father would.

Thanks Nick,

I agree to the first statement that Jesus is the Son of God sent from the Father, but it doesn't answer my question why in Isaiah He, being Jesus, is called the “Counsellor” or the “Everlasting Father”; names given to both the Holy Spirit and to the Father.

You say he was given complete authority in his Father's name, but to be given authority does not mean that he is that person, so why call him the “Everlasting Father” or “Counsellor”.

ie: In my company, if one of my employees is given authority in my name, that does not make him me, he only acts on my behalf therefore he cannot go around using my name, saying he is me without being deceptive. He can only use my name as a reference; my name is not his name and no one else would call him by my name even if he does have my authority. It would not be right for him to say he is the employer, it would only be right to say, as an employee, my employer has given me this authority.

If I was to say to you Everlasting Father, who does this bring to your mind or thought processes, like wise if I mention the word Counsellor which person of the Godhead would that bring up in your mind.

How then if i use this logic can the Prophet claim Jesus, the Messiah to be the Everlasting Father if that was not his name. The Messiah being called by the name Everlasting Father, implies something that you say he is not. I am not a hebrew scholar so I can only use what I see in plain text writen for me.

I am seeking truth on this subject because I have had many questions that I find hard to logically understand in regards to the Trinity doctrine (All the three are one, three times one, one in three confusion). And growing up in my denomination one just accepts the weak answers they use to explain this concept for fear of being labelled heretical.

I can see that there are three unique beings in the Godhead from scripture and that God the Father is the one true God and that Jesus, the begotten Son and the Holy Spirit are both sent from God and make up the Godhead. Whether Jesus is God (this I still struggle over) or just Godlike, a mirror image, a reflection of the Father, begotten from God I am not sure but I can see that they work together to achieve and fulfill the plans and purpose of God.

As i read scriptures like this that I find a little confusing I may pop them on the site for some other's thoughts till i have fully or more comprehensively have understood this subject.

[Artizan007]

1 John 5:18-24 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Can someone explain this scripture to me please… does the last sentence refer to the Son, Jesus Christ or to the Him, GOD who is true.

Also who is spoken of when it says: We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the “one who was born of God” keeps him safe. who is “the one who is born of God” and who is the “him”

[NickHassan]

Hi A,
Why does it surprise you that Yeshua, who is filled with the Spirit of God, displays abilities that are characterise that Spirit? We too are told to seek the Spirit who can show the same powers in us.

He reveals the Father to men. The fullness of deity is in him. Yeshua is not his own Father but the Father is in him and he is in the Father.

Godhead does not mean 3 in one . That is a false concept from the KJV. It means the Father.

The 1 Jn scripture refers to Yeshua. John and Paul referred to him as their personal God not infrequently, not to be confused with the God who is the Father.

Yeshua is the firstborn of all creation. He keeps us safe as we are branches of the vine that he is.

[liljon]

Nick you seem a little on what exactly the trinity teahces. Modalism says Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. KJV gives no such thing as godhead=3 in one. Paul and John had one god not two.

Artisan, it is referring to Jesus. The him in the second part is the Christian

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Artizan007 @ Feb. 20 2005,08:18)

I agree to the first statement that Jesus is the Son of God sent from the Father, but it doesn't answer my question why in Isaiah He, being Jesus, is called the “Counsellor” or the “Everlasting Father”; names given to both the Holy Spirit and to the Father.

Hi Artizan007,

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'

Here we can see that Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:

1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' which is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that teach that Jesus is the son of God. This interpretation is also in total agreement with the fact that, Jesus is the Image of God, and it must also be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty God indicates that there are Gods of a lesser position). The term “Mighty God” in Hebrew is ´El Gib·bohr´ and the term “Almighty God in Hebrew is ´El Shad·dai´ and applies uniquely to YHWH.

The other part of the scripture that mentions the term 'Everlasting Father' seems like a contradiction as it seems to indicate that Jesus is the Heavenly Father. The word Father that is used here is “Ab” and this word is the same word that is used when describing Abraham as our Father and this scripture is just a reference to say that Jesus is our Everlasting Father, in other words he is greater than Abraham, but it certainly doesn't say 'Heavenly Father'.

It is very important to read scriptures not only in context but also in agreement with other scriptures, especially since it is possible to interpret some scripture in more than one way, because of the wide varying uses and meanings of some words.

[Proclaimer]

To Artizan007,

Quote (Artizan007 @ Feb. 20 2005,09:25)

18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Can someone explain this scripture to me please… does the last sentence refer to the Son, Jesus Christ or to the Him, GOD who is true. Also who is spoken of when it says: We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the “one who was born of God” keeps him safe. who is “the one who is born of God” and who is the “him”

And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Jesus came to reveal the Father to us. He came to reveal God and to detroy the works of the Evil One.

The language is confusing I admit as it seems to change from one to another and back again.

But the verse is talking about 2. The Father and the Son. The Him is the Father. Look at the following:
“and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.”

As you can see, the HIM is also referred to as HIS and the HIM has a son that is HIS.

The end of the verse sums it up:
“This is the true God and eternal life.”

We know that the Father is the 'true God' as scripture clearly teaches and we know that Jesus is the 'eternal life' of which we are also partakers of.

[Ramblinrose]

Hello Artizan007

Isaiah 9:6  
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government
shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God , The everlasting Father , The
Prince of Peace.

God ,  la ‘el ale
shortened from 0352, Greek 2241 hli and 1664 elioud; TWOT-93a; n m
AV-God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1, Immanuel + 06005 2, might 1, strong 1; 245

1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

Father ba ‘ab awb
a root; TWOT-4a; n m
AV-father 1205, chief 2, families 2, desire 1, fatherless + 0369 1, forefathers + 07223 1, patrimony 1, prince 1, principal 1; 1215

1) father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor
4a) grandfather, forefathers—of person
4b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (fig.)
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
9) ruler or chief (spec.)

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (god-like one), The everlasting Father (head or founder of a household, group, family or clan), The Prince of Peace.

Please read the following article on the above subject:

http://reslight.addr.com/everlastingfather.html

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.  This is the true God and eternal life.  

Lets break the verse down.

And we know that the Son of God (Yahshua) has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we night know Him (YHWH) who is true, and we are in Him (YHWH) who is true, in (in, is strongs 1722 en and could just as easily be rendered through which would be more appropriate to understand this verse) His Son Jesus Christ (Yahshua the Messiah).  This is the true God (the God which Yahshua has preached to us is the true God) and eternal life.

A paraphrase of the verse:

And we know that Yahshua has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know YHWH who is true, and we are in YHWH who is true, through his Son Yahshua the Messiah.  The God that has been preached to us by Yahshua the Messiah is the true God and eternal life.

Shalom

[Anonymous]

NIV
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

[Anonymous]

1 John 1 (NIV)
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Who is the eternal life?
Jesus Christ is.

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
Trinity teaching is a form of Modalism. Because it does not teach about the unique and separate being the Son of God. Instead it says that the Three are one, of the SAME substance and equal.
That is wrong and it denies the Son of God as scripture predicted would happen.

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
We are the same, you and I, but different. We are both human and from the height of a tall building no one could tell us apart.
So if our bodies are similar is that all there is to it? Are we robots who think and feel and act in the same way? No we have individual personality. Even identical twins are different in this way though they are more similar.
We are of similar but not of the same substance. We have separate lives and individuality.
Now the Son of God was begotten of God and is the image of God. He has his own separate personality and will. He chose obedience to his Father and was born of Mary. But he was not filled with the Spirit of God until his baptism. He had his own personality [soul] and spirit within his human body.
Now trinity dogma says this was not so as it say he has exactly the same substance as his Father. This means he cannot be filled with the Spirit of his Father as he already was fully of that substance.
So all it allows is for Yeshua to have a human body/tent to enclose the substance of the Father.
That denies him because he exists apart from his body..
and apart from his Father..

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
What is idolatry? The worship of idols. It is an ACT and has nothing whatever to do with what being or object someone is worshipping.

Some people cannot see the word 'god' without immediately thinking there must be idolatry going on somewhere.

Nonsense.

Jesus faced the same issue in Jn 10 34 and tried to show the Jews that the word itself has nothing to do with idolatry. It is just a title indicating a superior status or state of being.

The Firstborn Son of God was the highest being under God. Though he had divine status he emptied himself and became as one of us.

After his death and resurrection he was elevated to even higher status and authority at the right hand of the Father.

If Paul and John call him our God that is ok with me. I am in no position to judge them.They both make it plain the being they worship is not Yeshua but the Father.

We too do not worship him but humbly serve our Lord.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guest @ Feb. 20 2005,21:48)

1 John 1 (NIV) 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. Who is the eternal life? Jesus Christ is.

Exactly Modem Mouth, Jesus Christ is the eternal life as you pointed out. So now who is the true God? The verse is talking about 2, not 1.

Scripture points out that there is one God who is the Father and if you read the verses in question you will see that the HIM & HIS is the same person and that this HIM has a son. So 1 Father and 1 son = 2 different identities.

If you read the verse carefully you will see that HIM and the son of God are different. HIM is also referred to as HIS and HIM has a son called Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is HIS son.

This verse is easy to manipulate because it jumps around somewhat between God and his son and grammar could make it easier to understand. But whatever way you wish to sway this verse, you cannot ignore that HIM has a son.

So this verse is talking about the true God and the Eternal life, which is God and his son.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

MM, how does your view of John 1 fit with the abiove verses. How can you reconcile your view with these verses so that they do not contradict?

If you understand that the Father is God (YHWH) then you will have no confusion with such things, but if you hold to Oneness or Trinity doctrine, then you have conflict and confusion.

[Proclaimer]

1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

[bic]

I regret that I was unable to read all 125 pages of this thread but, as this has been a very passionate subject to me for quite some time, I felt like I should jump in anyway. Forgive me if I post what has already been brought to light by another.

From what I have read, t8 seems to be most in line with my understanding of scripture. I, without question or doubt, whole-heartedly agree that the Trinity Doctrine (TD) is one of the most insidious and pernicious pagan teaching ever foisted upon mankind.

There are two points that I feel show with little doubt that the TD is NOT supported by scripture. They are as follows:

First, the TD states that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate but equal manifestations of the Triune God. If this was true, then one would expect that the apostles would hold each manifestation with the same regard and would not even consider slighting one of them. Yet, when we read Paul's salutations to his brethren in Christ in the letters to the various churches scattered throughout the Roman Empire, there is the glaring omission of a mention of the Holy Spirit. I will post the salutation in the letter to the Romans but I will leave it up to the reader to verify that this formula is repeated in all of the other epistles wriiten by Paul:

Rom:1:7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If the three were equal “persons” of the Godhead, Paul would have NEVER neglected to mention the third. The truth is, as scripture makes amply clear, the Holy Spirit is the POWER of God and is NOT a person of some 3 in 1 God.

A good (if very inadequate) analogy of the 'three' is this:

1) God (the Father) is the Energizer battery (the Source)

2) Jesus (the Son of God) is the Energizer Lamb

3) The Holy Spirit is the electricity (power) that flows from the Source to the Lamb

I know this may be a little cheesy but it paints a fairly accurate representation of the relationship between a Father and His Son and the flow of His power.

The second point is the distinction made when the Father and the Son are described as “light” in Revelation 21:23:

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Two separate words are translated into light, each with very DIFFERENT connotations relating to the different characteristics or properties of light.

First, in referring to God the Father, the word “lighten” is translated from the Greek word photizo (Strong's 5461), meaning “to give light” or “to shine”. The invisible qualities of light are represented by this word, from which the word “photon” is derived.

Secondly, the word “light” representing Jesus comes from the Greek word luchnos (Strong's 3088), meaning “a lamp, candle, that is placed on a stand or candlestick”. It is the VISIBLE quality of light that is alluded to here.

How fantastic that God has shown Himself in nature itself! How incredible that the intense light from our powerful sun can travel through millions of miles of pitchblack space, unseen and unaffected, and then burst forth into visible light upon striking the earth's atmospehere.

This is EXACTLY what Jesus does. He takes the invisible light that is God and makes it visible to us all.

More later. May God lead us all into all truth as we dilligently search the depths of His wisdom.

[NickHassan]

Welcome BIC,
Some excellent insights, thank you.
The equality factor has always been one of the weakest points in the trinity Doctrine.

It ignores the fact that Jesus said
'the Father is greater than I'.

It also ignores the fact that the Father sent Jesus
and
Jesus sends us the Spirit.

The Father is in heaven and sent his Son to rescue it and us from the Kingdom of Satan. He filled his Son with His Spirit and when we are reborn into Christ we can share that Spirit.
We can also use that Spirit power for God's good purposes continuing the mission of Jesus. We can also manifest in our own lives the fruit of the Spirit that Jesus showed so well.

Suffering and the necessary discipline of our new Father slowly and painfully builds into us the Character of Jesus till our work is complete.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bic @ Feb. 21 2005,03:39)

I regret that I was unable to read all 125 pages of this thread but, as this has been a very passionate subject to me for quite some time, I felt like I should jump in anyway. Forgive me if I post what has already been brought to light by another. From what I have read, t8 seems to be most in line with my understanding of scripture. I, without question or doubt, whole-heartedly agree that the Trinity Doctrine (TD) is one of the most insidious and pernicious pagan teaching ever foisted upon mankind.

Hi bic,

Welcome to this discussion. It is late so I will read your Post 2morrow, but it looks from your first 2 paragraphs that we are in agreement regarding the truth about the Trinity doctrine.

Yes this discussion is very long, but I point you to the following webpage that condenses what is found here into easy to follow subject headings. This webpage is what sparked this discussion in the first place and it has since been added to from the finer points that have come out of this discussion. The URL is as follows:

https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm

It gets a lot of reads mainly thanks to Google, as they have placed it at numero uno in their search rankings (most of the time), using the keywords 'trinity doctrine'.

bic, I will read your post 2morrow and hope to gain more insight.

thx

[Artizan007]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2005,09:05)

It ignores the fact that Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I'.

Hey Nick,

What version of the Bible is this verse from. I have read four different versions and none of them say it in the way you have typed it down. I know it states roughly the same but I just want to know which version you are quoting from. It makes it clearer to undestand.

John 10:28-30 (NKJV)
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 I and My Father are one.” *

* One in what! I can see that they are seperate, that there is two persons spoken of here and that Jesus calls Him, My Father, but in what sense are they one. – Thought, purpose and plan? Like in marriage where the husband and wife become one, even though they are two individuals. One in being joined etc.

I really want to know more, and am eager to gain a greater understanding of the Bible and what scripture says concerning this subject matter. I am sure to ask many questions as i follow this discussion through. forgive my ignorance at times… but it good for me to be able to discuss and then ponder all thoughts given here, so to make up my mind in such matters.

[bic]

That was a very good question concerning Jesus' statement “I and My Father are one.”. Many trinitarians use this verse as a 'proof text' to support this false doctrine. You were very right to ask “one in what?”. Let me show you by quoting another verse:

John 17:20: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It is God's holy Spirit that unites ALL of His children, making them ONE:

Ephesians 4:3: Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Hope this helps…

The verse you were asking about is here:

John:14:28: Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

God bless you in your search for truth.

[Author]

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