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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2005,23:39) HiMM,
Do you believe in the Son of God?
I believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. The real issue on the table here is not who is Jesus (that is answered above), but what is He?Are you not going to even try answering one of my questions (BTW if you can resolve these for me, then I would gladly abondon the trinity doctrine).
John 3
31″He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth He who comes from heaven is above all.****Cubes et al,
when someone can answer these questions logically and cogently for me, then I will agree that the Trinity doctrine is flawed. Until someone does, I will stand with the 99% majority.++++Hi MM.
****1. If Jesus is not God, then why is He called God by: the Father (Heb 1:8), Paul (Ti 2:13), John (Jn 1:1), Thomas (Jn 20:28)?
++++The question is not that the scriptures call Jesus God, e.g. John 1:1 (I don't dispute that), but I am saying that the holy scriptures do not teach that Father and Son are the same or co-equals. Lesser beings are called gods, how much more the Son of the Most High God to whom all the angels are commanded to worship?
For instance, Hebrews 1:8 is explained in Hebrews 1:9. If you need further clarification I shall be happy to provide it.****2. If Jesus is not God, why is He named great God in Ti 2:13, Mighty God in Is 9:6?, and the Almighty in Rev 1:8.
++++I hadn't noticed Titus 2:13 before, so it is good that you have cited it. It has been my observation that when the father and son are mentioned in the same verse, the Son becomes surbordinated to him. Seeing the father is not addressed expressly here, I will let stand the over all scriptural presentation from elsewhere in the bible. You have to cite a scripture that seen in the same verse, equates the son with the Father, to which there is no other explanation.
Jesus is indeed great. The question is, who is greater–the father or him? Or are they equal? And if so, where is the comparative scripture?
Revelations 1:8. How do you understand that in relationship to Revelations 1:4? Imagine your bible is not red-lettered. It seems to me that the Father is the one that is being spoken of. (NIV).
****3. Why is Jesus named YHWH in some Old Testament escatological prophecies, e.g. Zech 14?
++++I haven't had a chance to read this passage today, so I shall have to respond to it later.
****4. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Isaiah 40:3, applied to Jesus by New Testament writers (Mark 1:3)?
++++ In the NT, the titles of Father, Son & Jesus Christ greatly facilitate keeping track of who is who. Not so with the OT. I just in the past assumed that God and Lord/LORD automatically represented the Most High God. Now I am thinking that Jesus might have been more present than I thought. It still doesn't change anything—because the Apostles' witness of who Jesus is in relationship to the Most High, in addition to Jesus' own testimony, prevail. Whatever the names, He does not say that he is his father.
****5. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Jer. 31:33, applied to the Holy Spirit by New Testament writers (Heb 10:15-17)? (also, Ps 95:11 and Heb 3:7-11)
++++The Holy Spirit is to witness and remind us of all that we need to know right? So there is no contradiction b/n Jer 31:33 and Heb 10:15-17. I don't get the line of questioning here.
****6. Why is a plural (not a singular or even a dual) noun used when refering to God in Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7, Isaiah 6:8?
++++What is an example of a dual noun? And certainly, God sometimes spoke in plural terms, as did Jesus when speaking of his father. I don't claim to know how many were there but I say that there is only one Most High God. And these scriptures do not negate that fact. If anything, we argue that there is a unity in heaven, b/n Father and Son and Holy Spirit, and whoever God has there. We see the Body of Christ called to that very unity. For we being many are one body….
****7. Why are the Father and the Holy Spirit mentioned in the same triadic verses? e.g. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Pet 1:2. (wouldn't this be redundant if the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of the Father?)
++++What scripture teaches is that the Spirit or Holy Spirit — proceeds from the Father. No it is not redundant because God uses him in a specific way towards his children to carry forth his plan. A plan that Jesus is in charge of. My signature verse of Acts 5:32 tells us that the Holy Spirit comes from God…Jesus' God.
****8. How is it that the Old Testament teaches that God will judge the world, e.g. 1 Chr 16:33, but the New Testament teaches that Jesus alone will be the judge (Matt 25:31, Jn 12:48, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10)?
++++Precisely. It is God's world. He can appoint whomever he wants and he has appointed his son. Heb 1:8-9 .
Amen cubes,
If you compare Isaiah 40.3 speaking of the role of John the Baptist preparing the way for the gospel of Jesus Christ;” A voice is calling .'Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness. Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'”
with Zech 14.3
“Then the Lord [YHWH}will go forth and fight against these nations, as when he fights on a day of battle. In that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives..”the same principle applies.
In both cases God's work is being done.
But it is being done by the Son of God.
It does not imply that the Son of God is that God.
God is spirit and does not have feet.
God is in heaven and His servants do His work on earth.Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Please can someone explain why Jesus, for that is who I have come to understand is being spoken of here is called the everlasting Father… and also the Counsellor (two names given to other members of the Godhead: ie God the Father and the Holy Spirit in John 15)
Many thanks
Artizan007Not too sure how this works so hopefully this has not been posted twice…
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Please can someone explain why Jesus, for that is who I have come to understand is being spoken of here is called the everlasting Father… and also the Counsellor (two names given to other members of the Godhead: ie God the Father and the Holy Spirit in John 15)
Many thanks
Artizan007Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2005,00:55) Amen cubes,
If you compare Isaiah 40.3 speaking of the role of John the Baptist preparing the way for the gospel of Jesus Christ;” A voice is calling .'Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness. Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'”
with Zech 14.3
“Then the Lord [YHWH}will go forth and fight against these nations, as when he fights on a day of battle. In that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives..”the same principle applies.
In both cases God's work is being done.
But it is being done by the Son of God.
It does not imply that the Son of God is that God.
God is spirit and does not have feet.
God is in heaven and His servants do His work on earth.
Nick, The apostles were also doing the work of God but you don't see them named YHWH in scriptures. Sorry, I don't buy your explanation.Cubes, thanks for your answers. I will be replying in due course.
Welcome Artizan 007,
Jesus Christ the Messiah was born as man, the Son of God sent by the Father and he was filled with the Spirit of God at his Baptism. He was of godly origins but was not the Father but was filled with the Spirit of God. He was the light, the way, the truth and the life. He revealed the nature and power of God to men and drew us to worship God, his God.Whatever is said of him in these verses is true. He was given complete authority in his Father's name. He was filled with wisdom, knowledge, discernment, peace and love by the Holy Spirit.
He called his disciples his children and loved them as a father would.
Hi MM,
With regards to the scriptures you posted, they don't portray the son to be the father. The question again is not whether the Son is divine. But whether he is his father or equal to his father. Several of your scriptures pointed to the contrary, for instance, 1 Cor 1:2-3.
We believe all those things about Jesus too, but in the order that t8 listed a few posts ago.
Do you believe that God sent his son, the Branch for instance, to accomplish his purposes?
And how does that nullify the Son's testimony of himself in relationship to his Father and/or Vice Versa?
The question as to whether or not YHWH is Jesus is one that I have believed to be “no,” but given the fact I studied the OT using a bible that used Lord/LORD, I am willing to acquire a better translation (Maybe Hebrew/English) and study the Bible anew so I can know the Father and Son as well as I have come to know them in the OT. And I shall be keeping that question in mind when I do.
Quote (Artizan007 @ Feb. 19 2005,01:10) Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Please can someone explain why Jesus, for that is who I have come to understand is being spoken of here is called the everlasting Father… and also the Counsellor (two names given to other members of the Godhead: ie God the Father and the Holy Spirit in John 15)
Many thanks
Artizan007
Yes quite right Artizan007,
I hadn't noticed the common title for the Holy Spirit were applied to both Him and Christ. I also see the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of the Father and the Son (Gal 4:6). Romans 8:9-11 mentions both in the space of a few short sentences!9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Curious.
Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 19 2005,01:47) The question as to whether or not YHWH is Jesus is one that I have believed to be “no,” but given the fact I studied the OT using a bible that used Lord/LORD, I am willing to acquire a better translation (Maybe Hebrew/English) and study the Bible anew so I can know the Father and Son as well as I have come to know them in the OT. And I shall be keeping that question in mind when I do.
You can find a lot of translations online. I recommend you check out Zech 14 (the whole chapter) first. No one has been able to adequately explain this chapter to me yet.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2005,00:55) Amen cubes,
If you compare Isaiah 40.3 speaking of the role of John the Baptist preparing the way for the gospel of Jesus Christ;” A voice is calling .'Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness. Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'”
with Zech 14.3
“Then the Lord [YHWH}will go forth and fight against these nations, as when he fights on a day of battle. In that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives..”the same principle applies.
In both cases God's work is being done.
But it is being done by the Son of God.
It does not imply that the Son of God is that God.
God is spirit and does not have feet.
God is in heaven and His servants do His work on earth.
Good response, Nick. I hope it helps MM. And if you want specific explanations to your scriptures, I would also try to address them. It's just a little tricky with the quotes function not working on my pc.Enjoyed spending Friday Night with you all. Goodnight and have a wonderful day out there.
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 19 2005,01:57) Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 19 2005,01:47) The question as to whether or not YHWH is Jesus is one that I have believed to be “no,” but given the fact I studied the OT using a bible that used Lord/LORD, I am willing to acquire a better translation (Maybe Hebrew/English) and study the Bible anew so I can know the Father and Son as well as I have come to know them in the OT. And I shall be keeping that question in mind when I do.
You can find a lot of translations online. I recommend you check out Zech 14 (the whole chapter) first. No one has been able to adequately explain this chapter to me yet.
HI MM, I use the blb.org website but it is only KJV and and has a Hebrew Concordance. I only started using that a couple of months ago. I would google search, though if you know of other sites, feel free to let me know. Lastly, I still plan on having a hand held one that I can take to places with me.I hope to read Zecharia 14 in its entirety and get back to you with it. Anything else pending?
Let me know. Good night for now.
Hi MM,
You forget it is your role to convince us that the Son of God does not exist but he is only the Father in flesh. The rest is rather less important. Once we know that you really believe that the Son of God is separate from the Father then we will be able to explain to you the inconsistencies you find in scripture that are due to your false belief.“God is at work in you to will and to do.”
Nick,
Abraham, Moses, Davidand angels also do God's work but are never called YHWH. In fact, no apart from the father, Son and Holy Spirit are given that title in the Old Testament.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2005,02:07) You forget it is your role to convince us that the Son of God does not exist but he is only the Father in flesh.
Huh??!
I never claimed this! where are you coming from Nick?Hi MM,
You present scriptures that seem to convince you that Jesus is the God. Well you have to say then that if Jesus is the God of the Old Testament then the Son of God himself does not exist.Where does it say that the Holy Spirit is God?
What are you saying about Zech 14?
Are you saying that God the Father Himself stands on the Mount of Olives?
or
Are you saying that Jesus is standing on the Mount of Olives and he is the Father?You need to be more clear.
You cannot grasp the fact that God works through his servants
Hi MM,
You say if we can give answers to your questions then you would gladly give up your trinity beliefs.Who taught you those beliefs? Did you come to these conclusions yourself through your own bible study? Or did you learn them through denominational doctrinal teachings?
If you are established on the Foundation stone of Jesus the only rock he says you should build your house on the the Word. If you were being truly fair you would start again and study the word to establish your beliefs. That is what loyalty to Jesus, rather than your denomination, demands.
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