- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hi Is 1.18,
If you worship and serve another god than the One True God then you do not change it's nature.
Putting a stone on a tree stump and praying to it makes it for you a false god
but it does not make the stone alter in any way.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 30 2008,11:47) Hi Martian,
I'm sorry that you have had to deal with alot of health issues. I hope that you are done with surgeries for a good while now. One of my best friends is in a wheelchair because of MS or mold we aren't sure. I hope you get out of it soon. It does slow life down abit and give you more time for spiritual reflection, I'm sure. I imagine that you will appreciate those in a wheelchair more having to be confined to one yourself.Regarding your list of guidelines for Bible interpretations, I think that these three points need to be rewritten:
You wrote:10. Never assume an understanding outside of the Hebrew Eastern Culture of Biblical times. The mindset of the ancient Hebrew people is vastly different then those of us raised in Western cultures. They perceived their world and related to it in ways that are very foreign to us. Because of this their writings carry different meanings for words then those we now assign to them. Since all scripture, both old and New Testaments were written by Hebrews, the mindset and culture of those writers is reflected throughout the entire Bible.
4. Jesus Christ is the Messiah. His mission was two fold.
A. To be a blood sacrifice to purchase us back from our state of sin.
B. To be an example to humanity on how to perfectly walk with God and live a Godly life.5. God wants us to know Jesus so that we can become like him. This includes knowing how he accomplished what he did so that we can do likewise.
I would say it more like this:
10. It is important to consider the culture and customs of the times, and mindset of the writers of the scripture but remember that the meaning belongs to God. The Holy Spirit brings understanding and the mindset of God is the ultimate mindset to seek. The mindset of the ancient Hebrew people is vastly different then those of us raised in Western cultures and it is possible to be different than God's mindset also. They perceived their world and related to it in ways that are very foreign to us. Because of this their writings carry different meanings for words then those we now assign to them. Since all scripture, both old and New Testaments were probably written by Hebrews, the mindset and culture of those writers is reflected throughout the entire Bible.
4. Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the only begotten Son of God, our Savior, conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of a virgin when He became flesh, and had other roles not listed. Part of His mission was:
A. To be a blood sacrifice to purchase us back from our state of sin.
B. To be an example to humanity on how to perfectly walk with God and live a Godly life.5. God wants us to know Jesus so that we can become like him. This includes knowing how he accomplished what he did so that we can also do whatever God wants us to do.
How's that??
Thank you for your concerns and support.Now on to your post —
You say to add or augment my point 10 in this way.
The Holy Spirit brings understanding and the mindset of God is the ultimate mindset to seek. The mindset of the ancient Hebrew people is vastly different then those of us raised in Western cultures and it is possible to be different than God's mindset alsoThe problem with this statement is that it looks like you are denying the inspiriation of God in scripture. Perhaps the definition of minsdet is not clear. I am not speaking of an opinion, I am speaking of a way of thinking not ‘”what” an individual thinks. It was God using the minds and culture of the Hebrew people to write exactly what He wanted to say. It was not the Hebrew people receiving what God said and then writing it in their own way. The Hebrews would not have understood God had He spoke to them in a Western mindset. It would be a completely different way of thinking. Example – If I say “His nostrils flared”.
Would you immediately conclude that he was angry? That is what it means in Hebrew.The next part —
“and born of a virgin when He became flesh”
This sounds like you are inputting a doctrine here. It sounds like you are already indicating that Christ had an existence other then when he became flesh. This is exactly what these principles are designed to do is stop the interpretation that filters things through a preconceived idea of doctrine. Doctrine has to be left out of the picture other then in very general terms. The specifics are to be determined by following these principles and not instituted by them.I am not sure about your third point. I do not understand it.
martian…….I agree with you we need to come to see things through the eyes of the language used when they were written, it will open up the true meannings of the Scriptures, and i have come to see there is a big difference in how we look at things and the way the way the original writter saw them.
Nick…….I have started a word for word and sentence by sentence bible study on Genesis on finding believers, Kejonn's site and I would like to see it started Here, instead of jumping around from subject to subject as we seem to always do, let's just focus on one book and one scripture at a time so we all can become more educated and what better place to start then Genesis. The more imput we get from each other the more likely will come to a better understanding.
Peace brothers…………gene
Martian,
I think that we got the same general idea. I am not imputing a doctrine in my second point, I am merely acknowledging that it is a possibility while at the same time not demanding it. Remember, we are to lay aside any preconceived notions and let God show us.In my third point I just wanted your #5 to sound less like we are to do exactly the same things that Christ accomplished did but leave it more generalized as to what we are to accomplish.
So, if we agree then, on these guidelines allow me to ask you a question:
Could Genesis chapter 1 be speaking of two different lights, the one on day one and the one on day four. Why or why not.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 31 2008,03:49)
OK, really must go to bed now….:)
Hebrews 1:10 tells us that it was in fact Yeshua's hands that laid the foundations of the Earth.[/quote]
****
I am going to be posting what I have written before for the Restoration Light website. Since the study is rather long, I will split it up into several posts.
http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-10.htmlAnd, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail.” — Hebrews 1:10-12
In this scripture, Paul quotes from Psalm 102:25-27, and tells us that Jehovah is speaking here to his son. Does this scripture designate Jesus as “the” Creator of the heavens and the earth? It does say that the “heavens” are the work of his hands, and that he was the one who laid the foundation of the earth. The question is what is meant by “heavens” here? What is meant by earth? Is it speaking of the entire universe?
Many fail to take into consideration the scriptures as a whole, and thus come up with the wrong conclusions concerning what is being said in this verse. We should rightly divide the Word of Truth, so as to make the proper applications as related to context as well as the rest of the scriptures. (2 Timothy 2:15) God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible (the commonly-accepted 66 books) itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. (Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10) What we need to do, if we are to be harmony with what God's spirit has revealed, is look closely and compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment as given in the scriptures. — 1 Corinthians 2:10,13.
In context, the heavens and earth being spoken of is said to pass away. Therefore, we can conclude that this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, and we can further conclude that it is not speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. — Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5.
Hebrews 1:10: “And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.” I believe that it is possible that this not referring to the original creation of the heavens and earth as described in Genesis 1:1, but of the present heavens and earth that was laid in days of of Noah and his family after the flood. Peter speaks of this 2 Peter 3. 2 Peter 3:5,6 speaks heavens that were (past tense) and an earth, which had created by the word [Logos] of God. This original creation was indeed created by means of the Logos, which had become corrupted because of Adam's sin, but that world (kosmos) of mankind passed perished in the flood of Noah's day. (2 Peter 3:6) The six days of Genesis 1:1 – 2:1, in which God created the heavens and the earth (Exodus 20:11; 31:17), through the Logos (John 1:3,10), do not refer to the making of the actual planet earth, nor of the making of the heavens that is God's throne. (Psalm 1:11; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34; 23:22; Acts 7:49) Following this post, God willing, I will present the scriptural proofs that John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are not speaking of the creation of the whole universe, or the physical planets, stars, earth, etc. Certainly, when Genesis 1:1 speaks of heavens, it not speaking of the heaven where God resides with his angels (2 Chronicles 28:6; Job 1:6; Matthew 18:10; 1 Timothy 6:16), and of which the scriptures speak of as His throne. — Psalm 11:14; 102:19; 103:19; Isaiah 66:1.
That heavens and earth had already perished at the time of the writing of both Psalm 102:25-27 and also of Hebrews 1:10. This agrees with Genesis 6:13, where God tells Noah that he was about destroy that earth — not the planet itself — but the conditions that had become prevalent upon the planet. That heavens and earth — that world (kosmos) — perished, but it was not the physical heavens and earth that perished, for these still exist. Out of the ruins of that kosmos, however, another heavens and earth came into being, which Peter refers to as “the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured.” (2 Peter 3:7, Young's Literal Translation) The same Logos of God was used in establishing and laying the foundation of the present heavens and earth as had been used in the original heavens and earth that had been destroyed in flood of Noah's day. (2 Peter 3:5,6) Thus, by comparing all of these spiritual revealments, the conclusion is that it is the present heavens and earth (2 Peter 3:7) that is being spoken of Hebrews 1:10, which heavens and earth were established after the flood of Noah's day. It is this heavens and earth that Peter says “the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.” (2 Peter 3:10) This agrees perfectly with Hebrews 1:10.
Nevertheless, the word *kosmos* (world) can also be applied to the present world of mankind as going all the way back to Adam, disregarding the destruction of the *kosmos* that is spoken of as having perished in 2 Peter 3:6. Romans 1:20 appears to be speaking of the original creation of the world, for instance. Romans 5:12 speaks of sin entering into the world (kosmos), thus applying the word as disregarding the world that perished in the flood of Noah's day. Thus it is possible that Hebrews 1:10 could be referring to the same period of time spoken of in Genesis 1:1 – 2:1. Regardless, the heavens and earth being spoken of in Genesis 1:1 are said to be created by God, but we learn in the New Testament that God created “through” the Logos, or as it reads in the World English at Ephesians 3:9: “God … created all things through Jesus Christ.” Thus, “in [Greek, *en*, Strong's #1722, used here as signifying an instrument being used, thus, “by means of*”] him were the all things created,” ” all things through [Greek, dia, Strong's #1223**] him, and for him, have been created him, and to him.” — Colossians 1:16, Young's Literal Translation.==========
*The Greek word *EN* does not always mean “instrumentality”, but the only other meaning would be a location, either in time or space. The Greek word *EN* Colossians 1:16 has to be seen as meaning instrumentality, or else the only other conclusion as that all things were literally created inside of the actual being of Jesus.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722
**The Greek word *dia* always denotes “the channel an act”. Usually it represents an agent being used by another, but it can also mean the channel from which an act originates. The context, as well as the rest of the scriptures, show that in Colossians 1:16 the word is used to express that Jesus is used as an agent by the God and Father of Jesus in creation. (Colossians
1:3,10,11,12,13,15) One would have assume and add to the scripture that Jesus is God from this scripture.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223The “heavens” that ruled the earth in the beginning was also established by means of the Logos. However, it was corrupted by a usuper. Using the King of Tyre as a symbol of the angel that rebelled, this arrangement is spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13-15. Originally, there was one appointed/anointed in the heavens over Eden as a covering cherub, and that one rebelled against God's arrangements. Satan set himself up as the ruler and “god of this world”. (2 Corinthians 4:4) Thus, we are told that our fight is against “against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” — Ephesians 6:12.
The foundations of human society were also laid there (Mark 10:6), in family and fraternal relationships, on the basis of love and justice, on which the human race could have built up a social structure as fine and as sweet as that of heaven; and, in perfect joy with each other, mankind could have delighted without fear in the unfolding wonders with which the Creator had filled the earth, and possibly even other planets. But Solomon said: “This only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.” — Ecclesiastes 7:29.
They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. — Hebrews 1:11
This present evil world or arrangement — both its heavens [the rulership by Satan and his demons as well as their human agencies] and its earth [the arrangement of disobedient human society in general] are to perish. Again, this is not speaking of the planet, nor of the physical heavens above, for these will never be removed.
As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail. — Hebrews 1:12.
As a an old piece of clothing, they will be rolled up, and changed. As they were they will no longer be actively worn as a mantle. In effect, they will no longer be active. However, as God says: “Behold, I make all things new.” (Revelation 21:5) The old system of Satan, as such is to be destroyed, but out of its “mantle”, which is folded and changed, comes forth “the new heavens [with its New Jerusalem from which to rule] and the new earth,” in which righteousness will dwell. – – Revelation 21:1-5; 2 Peter 3:13.
As foretold, Jesus has remained faithful from creation's beginning — he has remained the same. Even while came to suffer as a man on earth, he remained the same — not the same in substance, for while as human, he did not have the glory of the heavenly substance (John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40), but he continued in faithful obedience to his God. (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:8; 10:7-9) And Jesus will remain the same, and his years will not fail or ever end, since having been made alive from death, he now dies no more. — Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:16,25; Revelation 1:18.
There is nothing in any of this, however, that means that Jesus is Yahweh, his God. — Hebrews 1:9.
More to follow…
Christian love,
RonaldHi martian,
You say
“This sounds like you are inputting a doctrine here. It sounds like you are already indicating that Christ had an existence other then when he became flesh. This is exactly what these principles are designed to do is stop the interpretation that filters things through a preconceived idea of doctrine. Doctrine has to be left out of the picture other then in very general terms. The specifics are to be determined by following these principles and not instituted by them.”It sounds as though you do not want to accept biblical teaching on this matter because your weak function filter analysing all things according to greek usefulness does not see usefulness in Christ being the Son of God nor understand that the why the monogenes son needed to be sent from heaven.
Quote (ronday888 @ Mar. 31 2008,16:51)
What About Isaiah 48:13?He laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved forever. — Psalm 104:5, World English Bible translation.
Yes, my hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spread out the heavens: when I call to them, they stand up together. — Isaiah 48:13, World English Bible translation.
He built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he has established forever. — Psalm 78:69, World English Bible translation.
Through comparisons the scriptures, we should realize that the above scriptures are not speaking of the same things as “heavens” and “earth” that is being spoken of in Hebrews 1:10,11. In context of the latter, the heavens and earth are said to pass away. Thus, this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, nor is it speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. — Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5; Matthew 18:10.
In Isaiah 48:13, Yahweh speaks of his laying the foundation of the physical earth and spreading out the physical heavens. These obey his commands, so that when he calls, they stand up together (in harmony). We see from Genesis 1:14-19 that the physical earth and the stars, etc., are shown as obeying the commands of Yahweh. –Genesis 1:14-19.
The physical earth spoken of in Isaiah 48:13 has been established forever, and will never be removed forever . — Psalm 78:69; 104:5 — Strong's #05703 and #05769 are both used in Psalm 104:5, thus signifying that the foundation of the physical earth will never be removed.
Therefore, it will be true that the day will come when the righteous will never be removed from the physical earth when it has been made new, but the wicked will not dwell in the earth anymore. — Psalm 37:9-11,22,28,39; Proverbs 10:30; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 20:1-5.
Thus, Isaiah 43:13 is speaking of the physical heavens and earth that will never be removed, while Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of a heavens and earth that will be be removed.
The Beginning
In Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, we read of a “beginning”. Many have assumed that this “beginning” refers to absolutely everything in the universe, yet if we compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment, in both cases we can see that the scriptures show otherwise. Likewise, the “panta” — all — that was created through the Logos, referred to in John 1:3,4, is speaking, not of everything in the universe, but the world that was made by means of the Logos, the same world that did not recognize him. — John 1:10
See
Beginnings
http://reslight.net/beg.htmlIn Exodus 20:11, we read:
for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.
The above scripture says that Yahweh created the heavens and earth in 6 days. Does it mean 6 24-hour days? Genesis 2:4 speaks of “the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.” (KJV) In one place it says six days; in the other it speaks of one day. Obviously 6 X 24 hours does not equal 24 hours, so we realize that the word “day” is spoken of to designate any length of time — sometimes consistent and definite in length and sometimes not so definite.
However, this entire creative “day”, spoken of as “six days”, is the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. It was this “world” that was made through Jesus, and which Jesus came into, and which did not recognize Jesus. (John 1:10) That the “beginning” spoken of in John 1:1 relates to the world into which Jesus came, can be seen from Jesus' statement in Mark 10:6: “But from the beginning of the creation, 'God made them male and female.” (See also Mark 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4) Jesus says that he was sent into this world by his God. “God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:17, Revised Standard Version) It should be clear that by “world” here that Jesus did not mean the world of the angels, but rather that he was speaking of the world of mankind.
Jesus tells us that he was with his Father before this world, the world that he came into, and which world did not recognize him, was created. We have no reason to think that the glory which Jesus said he had with the only true God before the world was made was a glory that existed only the mind of God, for why should he ask for such a glory to be given to him? He was asking for the heavenly glory that he had with the only true God before the world into which he came was made, and which glory he did not possess while he was a human being. — John 1:10; 17:5.
It needs to be emphasized what “world” is being spoken, in order to understand what is being spoken of when the scripture says that “all things were made through him, and without him not one thing was made.” (John 1:3) It is this world that Jesus said he came into, and which he left. “I came out from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28, World English Bible translation) The scripture is not including the spirit world in this “world” of which he speaks, for it is not the spirit world that does not recognize him, but he refers to world that did not recognize him. The word “world” (kosmos) in the New Testament is consistently used, not of the material universe, but rather of the world in which mankind lives, although since the believers, or those in covenant relationship with God, are, in effect considered as separate from the world, the word “world” is thus sometimes used in exclusion of such believers. One can examine the usage of the word “kosmos” online at:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889That there was, then, a creation before the beginning of the world of mankind can be seen in the fact that the angels were already in existence before the earth was brought forth. (Job 38:4-6) While the scriptures do not specifically speak of the creation of the angels, we have no reason to conclude that the angels were not created, since man is said to have be made a little lower than the angels. — Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7.
The beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 refers to the six days of creation as respects the ordering of the earth for life, especially that of man. We know this because of Exodus 20:11, 31:17. The heavens [the atmosphere, sky — Genesis 1:8] and the earth [land-masses — Genesis 1:10] were made in six days. This agrees also with Matthew 19:4,5, Mark 10:6 which refer to the “beginning” as when Adam and Eve were created. The angels were already in existence at this beginning, for they shouted with joy at the creation of earth. (Job 38:4-11) Likewise the “earth” in some material form appears to have already existed, for it “was” at the beginning of the first day (Genesis 1:2), similar to the expression that the Logos “was” in the beginning spoken of in John 1:1. And we know that the angels were already in existence at this creation, since they are spoken of in Job 38:4-7 as shouting for joy at the creatin of the earth. (See also Job 1:6; 2:1) The above additionally would be in harmony with several scriptures where “creation” is spoken with reference to creation of mankind, not the angels, stars, etc. — Mark 10:6; Romans 8:20,22; 2 Peter 3:4.
By this we can see that the heavens and earth, spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10, as well as the “world” spoken of John 1:9,10; 17:5, was the work of the God and Fat
her of Jesus (Romans 1:7; 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3), which was indeed performed through Jesus (Ephesians 3:9), the firstborn creature. — John 1:3; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:10,11.Futher study:
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesus-beginning.html
http://creation.reslight.net/tb.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/bg.htmlRonald
Hi RD,
You say“Likewise, the “panta” — all — that was created through the Logos, referred to in John 1:3,4, is speaking, not of everything in the universe, but the world that was made by means of the Logos, the same world that did not recognize him. — John 1:10″
Jn1
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I believe this speaks of God Himself in the vessel of the Son. The people belonged to God as His chosen people and not to Jesus who had not been born and is not said to have had any prior relationship with them. Christ was the lamp that shed the light. Thus he too can be called the light of the world..
Hi RD,
God and not Jesus is the Father of lights.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.He lights every man who comes into the world.
He too is the Father of spirits.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,08:55) Hi martian,
You say
“This sounds like you are inputting a doctrine here. It sounds like you are already indicating that Christ had an existence other then when he became flesh. This is exactly what these principles are designed to do is stop the interpretation that filters things through a preconceived idea of doctrine. Doctrine has to be left out of the picture other then in very general terms. The specifics are to be determined by following these principles and not instituted by them.”It sounds as though you do not want to accept biblical teaching on this matter because your weak function filter analysing all things according to greek usefulness does not see usefulness in Christ being the Son of God nor understand that the why the monogenes son needed to be sent from heaven.
It is your opinion that scripture is teaching a pre-existant Christ. Without us both agreeing on sound principles to interpet scriptues it will always be opinion. Not interested in your opinions or your unwillingness to seek honesty with scripture.Hi martian,
So if I do not agree with you on how to interpret scripture then I am only expressing a dishonest opinion.
Your views continue to amaze.Hi Nick,
What do you mean when you say this:I believe this speaks of God Himself in the vessel of the Son.
Hi LU,
God visited His people in the vessel of His son.
Luke 1:68
” Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,Luke 7:16
Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!”All men are vessels
2Tim2
19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
We should be cleansed vessels for God to live in by His Spirit.
Romans 9:23
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,1 Thessalonians 4:4
that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,Matthew 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.But some are vessels for other things and fit for wrath.
Matthew 12:44
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2008,17:12) I believe this speaks of God Himself in the vessel of the Son. The people belonged to God as His chosen people and not to Jesus who had not been born and is not said to have had any prior relationship with them. Christ was the lamp that shed the light. Thus he too can be called the light of the world.
Nick,
The Son of God had a type of a relationship with God's chosen people in the Old Testament they just didn't understand it. He was the one that was the “arm” of the LORD. That “arm” passed along His Father's words to the people of Zion that they were His people. It seems that the Son of God was the one that parted the Red Sea also and the rock that gave living water in the wilderness.Isa 51:9-16
9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD;
Awake as in the days of old, the generations of long ago.
Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces,
Who pierced the dragon?
10 Was it not You who dried up the sea,
The waters of the great deep;
Who made the depths of the sea a pathway
For the redeemed to cross over?
11 So the ransomed of the LORD will return
And come with joyful shouting to Zion,
And everlasting joy will be on their heads.
They will obtain gladness and joy,
And sorrow and sighing will flee away.12 “I, even I, am He who comforts you.
Who are you that you are afraid of man who dies
And of the son of man who is made like grass,
13 That you have forgotten the LORD your Maker,
Isa 51:13-16
Who stretched out the heavens
And laid the foundations of the earth,
That you fear continually all day long because of the fury of the oppressor,
As he makes ready to destroy?
But where is the fury of the oppressor?14 “The exile will soon be set free, and will not die in the dungeon, nor will his bread be lacking. 15 “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'”
NASUAs a side note, Nick, in v. 16 above it is clear that God spoke through His Son at times in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.
John 12:36-43
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
NASU1 Cor 10:1-5
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
NASUSo you see, the Son of God, Christ, as a vessel for the Most High God was relating to the Israelites in the Old Testament. They, however did not realize that the vessel was the Messiah, nevertheless, He had a relationship with them. It wasn't a two way relationship except in maybe somewhat Isaiah's case.
Hi LU,
It is an opinion.
But that is all.
I believe it is the Spirit of Christ spoken of, the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 10 and seems to align with 1 Peter to me.1Peter1
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
So Nick,
So are you suggesting that this is merely speaking of the Holy Spirit and not of the Son? We know that the Son of God was used in creation to establish the heavens and found the earth. It is a vessel that God puts His words in their mouth. The Holy Spirit is not a vessel that speaks for God but the inspiration given to others to speak for God.16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'”
NASUAre you also suggesting that the Son of God isn't the arm of God but that this passage is about the Holy Spirit and not Jesus? The Holy Spirit of Christ is not even mentioned here but Jesus is.
John 12:36-43These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
NASUI do not think that you want to see that Christ related to people in the Old Testament for some reason even when I give you verses that declare it to be so. Why is that? It is not an opinion, it is God's word.
1 Cor 10:1-5
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
NASU1 Cor 10:4 …and the rock was Christ.
It doesn't say that the rock was the Holy Spirit or that it was the Spirit of Christ. It says that the rock was Christ. He was in the wilderness satisfying their thirst. He was present with them in the wilderness and helping them. Just because they were unaware doesn't mean He wasn't there helping them along the way. Like I said, it was a one-way relationship. He was helping them and they did not know it was the Christ. It wasn't time for that to be revealed.
Hi LU,
You quote,
“John 12:36-43These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. “
Compare Is 6 which is quoted
“Isaiah 6
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
The LORD in the OT is God .
So this is not about Jesus.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,11:11) Hi martian,
So if I do not agree with you on how to interpret scripture then I am only expressing a dishonest opinion.
Your views continue to amaze.
It is not about agreeing with me. You keep making it personal. It is about both agreeing with a set of principes that will honestly interpret the scripture. Things like defining words in Bible dictionaries rather then taking their English translations ver batum. Like agreeing not to take verses out of context. Very simple common sense principles. You have used them yourself. All I am dong is defining them and listing them.Hi Nick,
Isa 51:9-16
My point regarding Isa 51:9-16 and 1 Cor 10:1-5 is not that Christ is the LORD, the Most High God in these passages but that He was the Son of God as a heavenly body used by the LORD to speak for Him and to do things for Him. Christ was used to speak for the LORD even in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. He was also the “arm” of the LORD in the sense that Christ was the “doer” at times by the direction of the LORD, not the LORD Most High Himself.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
