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Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2007,23:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2007,17:12) Jesus is the Son of a power or a force. But if he the Holy Spirit is the Father, then you have to admit the Spirit is a person and is God!
Unless you believe God is not a person.
Either way your doctrine dosnt fit.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.There is the answer right there.
The Spirit of God.
What about the spirit of a man, is that somebody else?
t8Good, I am glad you admit that the Spirit is God.
Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2007,17:12) Quote (martian @ Dec. 22 2007,13:35) Actually the Trinitarian doctrine makes Jesus a bastard child.
Mary with child of the Holy Spirit person (3rd person of the Trinity) and yet Jesus calls the Father person (1st person of the Trinity) his father. .
martianActually it is you that makes Yeshua a bastard child.
If he was concieved by an “it” then the Father was not his Father at all. The it is.
Jesus is the Son of a power or a force.
But if he the Holy Spirit is the Father, then you have to admit the Spirit is a person and is God!
Unless you believe God is not a person.
Either way your doctrine dosnt fit.
Hey WJ, Get a hat on your ignorance is showing.
I never said that The special breath is a force. Not even eluded to it.
I said as has been said many times that The special breath was the braath of God and it was God himself.Months ago I ask you to define Holy Spirit and Logos. You dodged for days because the actual definitions of thse words takes away the personalizing aspects of these terms.You insist on living in ilusion and fantasy.
Good.I am glad to see you admit the Spirit is God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2007,06:24) Hi martian,
If the actions of Adam were because he was filled with God then you have an odd view of God.
Again you put words in my mouth. I clearly seperated the diference between the presence of the breath of God to animate and that which we call the infilling or baptism of the Spirit.If it is not the presence of God/His breath blown into Adam what was it?
God is the source of all life and all of creation.What is the Spirit that returns to God when we die?
Quote Hi Mr Steve,
Where does scripture say three are gods?
God is One.
Jesus said so and he should know if he is one of your deities.Hi Nick;
Forgive me but I'm a little on edge today and am requesting the prayers of the saints. My car was broken into last night (for the third time) and my wife's purse was stolen which included all of her personal identification information and the keys to our house, etc. She needs a badge to go to work, that was in the purse, too. I've never seen her so grieved in the 24 years we've been married. Of course, it happened the weekend before Christmas. We were going to Florida for a week after Christmas Day to see her parents and brother, now she has no license to get on the plane. In all of this, I declare it is well with my soul. It is good for me that I have been afflicted that I might learn his precepts. I'm just praying that the airline will give us our money back on the tickets since it is impossible for us to go without her I.D. I'm expecting God to do wonderful things while we are home for the Holidays. At least we have our faith and each other. I apologize for indulging but I just felt compelled to share.
It's strange, but I feel the people on this site have become part of my life and will pray for me when I'm facing hard times.
I was already able to find an auto-glass repair shop that fixed my car this morning. Praise God.With respect to your question, I'll share my understanding to date.
Jesus Christ has been exalted as Lord of heaven and earth to the glory of the Father. Does that make him God the Father?
Since he is not God the Father, is he not Lord of heaven and earth? He reigns under the authority of his Father. There is one God and Jesus calls his Father his God. That is the one God that all of scripture refers to. But Christ is the head of God's government to which we are citizens.The Holy Spirit has been sent to guide us into all truth. The role of the Holy Spirit is to continue the teaching that Christ taught. When Jesus said the Holy Spirit would not speak of himself but would take of his which the Father had given to him, he made it clear that the Holy Spirit was distinct from the Father. If the Holy Spirit was the Father than the Holy Spirit would be speaking of himself because he is God the Father. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be a distinct person, within the spiritual agency of God, if you will. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's about all we really see in scripture with respect to the Holy Spirit being a distinct person.
There is also the baptism of Jesus where the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove. As this occurs, the Father speaks and says this is my beloved Son. In this passage, we see three distinct persons. There can be no mistake that the Holy Spirit has some form of assignment agency within the Will of God. We shouldn't be dogmatic here. We simply do not know enough about the Holy Spirit to nail this down. Just when we think we have it all figured out we read in Revelation about the seven spirits of God.
This is all fine because the Holy Spirit is not our Savior, Jesus is the focus of the gospel and is who the gospel is intended to reveal in God's plan of salvation.
If the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of the Father, Jesus would not have said he will not speak of himself but will speak what he hears from the Father. If the Holy Spirit was the Father, then Jesus would have said that when I leave, I will send the Spirit of my Father or I will send my Father to teach you.
This may be why the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, because no where in scripture does Christ send the Father, the Father sends Christ. The Father is the God of Christ and Christ does not have authority over his God and Father so it would be out of order scripturally for the Holy Spirit to be the Father. It simply cannot be the case.
Moreover, if the Holy Spirit was the Father, Jesus would not have said to go into all the world in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He would have just said to go in the name of the Father and the Son.
The Father has used the Holy Spirit since our age began. God does not change. Holy men of old spake as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God's way of imparting himself into our lives by quickening our spirits to commune with God and walking in his paths.
Jesus actually didn't teach in great detail on the Holy Spirit, which is why it's not so easy to piece together. Paul taught extensively on the Holy Spirit regarding the fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, but not on point with the issues we are addressing here;i.e., if the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same person.
We shouldn't let our understanding of scripture be clouded by our personal preferences with respect to doctrine. There is one God, but the Son of God has Lordship and the Holy Spirit must be in deity and be subject unto the Father, otherwise, the Holy Spirit which moved upon the prophets to write scripture could not be inspired by God. So we must maintain that the Holy Spirit is deity, meaning, he is divine, but not the Father God.
Just remember there is an order within God's deity of which the Father is supreme. Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit and the Father were distinct. That should be all any of us need to know to believe it is true.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:25) I finally figured it out. WJ has been hired by the website to keep the argumant going.Must be a lot of money involved to make someone agree to look so silly and dumb. 
martianDo you suppose this kind of name calling is from the Spirit of God and funtional?
Matt 5:22
But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Its amazing to me that you preach so much about being functional and yet you resort to such patronizing and name calling.
Jesus said love your enemys, let alone a believer in Christ.
I realize that I probably am not considered your brother in the Lord, but more like your enemy, but even for the sake of those who come to this sight, dont you think that a little respect for each other is due.
That would be functional would it not?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,08:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:25) I finally figured it out. WJ has been hired by the website to keep the argumant going.Must be a lot of money involved to make someone agree to look so silly and dumb.
martianDo you suppose this kind of name calling is from the Spirit of God and funtional?
Matt 5:22
But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Its amazing to me that you preach so much about being functional and yet you resort to such patronizing and name calling.
Jesus said love your enemys, let alone a believer in Christ.
I realize that I probably am not considered your brother in the Lord, but more like your enemy, but even for the sake of those who come to this sight, dont you think that a little respect for each other is due.
That would be functional would it not?
The scriptues do not apply to me. I never said you were silly or dumb. I said you look silly and dumb to continue the same argument over and over again.Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,08:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:25) I finally figured it out. WJ has been hired by the website to keep the argumant going.Must be a lot of money involved to make someone agree to look so silly and dumb.
martianDo you suppose this kind of name calling is from the Spirit of God and funtional?
Matt 5:22
But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Its amazing to me that you preach so much about being functional and yet you resort to such patronizing and name calling.
Jesus said love your enemys, let alone a believer in Christ.
I realize that I probably am not considered your brother in the Lord, but more like your enemy, but even for the sake of those who come to this sight, dont you think that a little respect for each other is due.
That would be functional would it not?
The scriptues do not apply to me. I never said you were silly or dumb. I said you look silly and dumb to continue the same argument over and over again.
And who is judging my motives or my conclusiions. I have never said you were not savedt. The Trinity is simpy a doctrine it is not about relationship with God.It is intelectual in it's nature and has little to do with rlationship.I see no enemies on this board. It would be like playing an online game and thinking of those as enemies. This is an entertainment venue ad that is all. I have several times said that and even said you keep it entertaining by your apposition to the rest. In fact we should be thanking you. Without your adhearance to the Trinity nobody on here would have much to say. That is what this forum is about. Not ministry, not testimony. Not even real study but about the process of intelectual debate.
I am sorry if you were offended. It ws done in the spirit of the game. We all need to not take this venue too seriously.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,07:14) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 22 2007,23:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2007,17:12) Jesus is the Son of a power or a force. But if he the Holy Spirit is the Father, then you have to admit the Spirit is a person and is God!
Unless you believe God is not a person.
Either way your doctrine dosnt fit.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.There is the answer right there.
The Spirit of God.
What about the spirit of a man, is that somebody else?
t8Good, I am glad you admit that the Spirit is God.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”I don't admit it. I accept it because it is written.
He is spirit (pneuma).
Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,08:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:25) I finally figured it out. WJ has been hired by the website to keep the argumant going.Must be a lot of money involved to make someone agree to look so silly and dumb.
martianDo you suppose this kind of name calling is from the Spirit of God and funtional?
Matt 5:22
But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Its amazing to me that you preach so much about being functional and yet you resort to such patronizing and name calling.
Jesus said love your enemys, let alone a believer in Christ.
I realize that I probably am not considered your brother in the Lord, but more like your enemy, but even for the sake of those who come to this sight, dont you think that a little respect for each other is due.
That would be functional would it not?
The scriptues do not apply to me. I never said you were silly or dumb. I said you look silly and dumb to continue the same argument over and over again.
martianThen what does this mean?
Quote Hey WJ, Get a hat on your ignorance is showing. Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,08:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:25) I finally figured it out. WJ has been hired by the website to keep the argumant going.Must be a lot of money involved to make someone agree to look so silly and dumb.
martianDo you suppose this kind of name calling is from the Spirit of God and funtional?
Matt 5:22
But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Its amazing to me that you preach so much about being functional and yet you resort to such patronizing and name calling.
Jesus said love your enemys, let alone a believer in Christ.
I realize that I probably am not considered your brother in the Lord, but more like your enemy, but even for the sake of those who come to this sight, dont you think that a little respect for each other is due.
That would be functional would it not?
The scriptues do not apply to me. I never said you were silly or dumb. I said you look silly and dumb to continue the same argument over and over again.
martianAnd what is your argument over and over?
“Funtionality”.
Does this make you look any better than me?
WJ is not “silly and dumb”. He has his own life experience and no one can take that away from him. WJ is much stronger in his dedication to God than most I know. Please respect him although you may not agree with him. Calling him “silly and dumb” is insulting and unnecessary.
Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 23 2007,09:17) WJ is not “silly and dumb”. He has his own life experience and no one can take that away from him. WJ is much stronger in his dedication to God than most I know. Please respect him although you may not agree with him. Calling him “silly and dumb” is insulting and unnecessary.
kejonnThanks!
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,09:12) Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,08:26) Quote (martian @ Dec. 23 2007,02:25) I finally figured it out. WJ has been hired by the website to keep the argumant going.Must be a lot of money involved to make someone agree to look so silly and dumb.
martianDo you suppose this kind of name calling is from the Spirit of God and funtional?
Matt 5:22
But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Its amazing to me that you preach so much about being functional and yet you resort to such patronizing and name calling.
Jesus said love your enemys, let alone a believer in Christ.
I realize that I probably am not considered your brother in the Lord, but more like your enemy, but even for the sake of those who come to this sight, dont you think that a little respect for each other is due.
That would be functional would it not?
The scriptues do not apply to me. I never said you were silly or dumb. I said you look silly and dumb to continue the same argument over and over again.
martianThen what does this mean?
Quote Hey WJ, Get a hat on your ignorance is showing.
Telling someone they are ignorant is not an insult.I am ignorant of how the space shuttle works. I do not consider that an insult.Come on — Keep the game going — It is getting good now
Functionality could be called common sense applied to doctrine. You would want to get away from that?
martian
So you think this is a game?
There are many listening and watching. Souls are at stake here.
Words are powerful.
Just because no one can see us or hear us verbally dosnt mean that the words we say can not have influence on souls.
This is not a game.
Matt 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Words are important my friend!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2007,06:53) Hi WJ,
When are you going to take courage in your hands and call Paul a liar and a deceiver
and that his words in 1 Cor 8 are false and that we should rather hear you?
The same day he calls James & John decievers.But that would be too honest an approach. What I mean is that stating what he believes as being different to Paul, James, and John is actually being honest about what you really believe.
It is actually more deceitful to say you agree with them, and then teach against them.
“There are 3 who are one God”, for example.
Of course everyone who can think clearly knows it is really 3 HEs/HIMs and completely contradicts the teachings of the apostles, prophets, and the son of God, not to mention violating the first commandement.
But it would take some honesty to admit that he opposes such.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,18:56) martian So you think this is a game?
There are many listening and watching. Souls are at stake here.
Words are powerful.
Just because no one can see us or hear us verbally dosnt mean that the words we say can not have influence on souls.
This is not a game.
Matt 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Words are important my friend!
Sorry you are under that ilusion.
1. the arguments that ae mstly done are about doctrins such as the Trinity. No ones salvation is based on this doctrine.
2. Since all of Christianity depends on a change of the heart and not the head little that is done on here that accomplishes much.
3.It does however have entertainment value
4.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,18:56) martian So you think this is a game?
There are many listening and watching. Souls are at stake here.
Words are powerful.
Just because no one can see us or hear us verbally dosnt mean that the words we say can not have influence on souls.
This is not a game.
Matt 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Words are important my friend!
Talk about a contradiction. Your post scripture that prove my point.Matt 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Talk about a scripture proving what I have said about a working doctrine.
What fruit is there from the doctrine of the Trinity. Fruit that actually changes the heart and not the mind.
Since the doctrine does nothing to change the heart, the Trinity does not build any good treasure in the heart.
Now who will stand in judgment for sidetracking people’s minds in doctrines that do nothing and produce no good fruit.It is real obvious why you choose to put down the concept of functionality. It is because the doctrine you preach has no realistic function. No fruit in the heart and no purpose toward making us like Christ. A WASTE OF TIME! A GAME —
Hi WJ,
You know now you cannot prove the trinity theory from the teaching of Scripture.
That means it is an intellectual speculation only.
So why not drop it?Quote (martian @ Dec. 24 2007,03:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2007,18:56) martian So you think this is a game?
There are many listening and watching. Souls are at stake here.
Words are powerful.
Just because no one can see us or hear us verbally dosnt mean that the words we say can not have influence on souls.
This is not a game.
Matt 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Words are important my friend!
Talk about a contradiction. Your post scripture that prove my point.Matt 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Talk about a scripture proving what I have said about a working doctrine.
What fruit is there from the doctrine of the Trinity. Fruit that actually changes the heart and not the mind.
Since the doctrine does nothing to change the heart, the Trinity does not build any good treasure in the heart.
Now who will stand in judgment for sidetracking people’s minds in doctrines that do nothing and produce no good fruit.It is real obvious why you choose to put down the concept of functionality. It is because the doctrine you preach has no realistic function. No fruit in the heart and no purpose toward making us like Christ. A WASTE OF TIME! A GAME —
MartianTell me, is there there any subject more important than understanding who God is?
How can you know him apart from knowing Yeshua?
If all you know about Yeshua is he is a mere man, then you cannot know God.
And since you cant know anything about God apart from Yeshua then Yeshua has to be more than a mere man.
Simple!
You have not explained how a mere man can be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient.
How do you follow him in those things?
Can you be like him in every way? Can you have or ever have those attributes of God?
Will you be able to share in the creation of the New Heavens and the New earth?
Can you follow him in that?
Did you share in the creation of all things?
Can you follow him in that?
Can you baptise men in the Holy Spirit?
Can you save anyone?
Can you give your blood for all of humanitys sins?
Can you forgive sins?
Can you raise yourself from the dead?
Can you be the bread of life for all men?
Is the Holy Spirit subservient to you?
Can you dwell in millions of believers and recieve their prayers and bear their burdens and be with them all at the same time?
Can you follow him in these things?
Does all things consist by you?
Can you uphold all things by the word of your power?
Can you be the light that lights every man?
Can you follow him in these things?
My Jesus is bigger than yours martian.
For apparantly your Jesus is just another man that was anointed by God!
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