The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,07:22)

Hi martian, So the presence of God lives in all men? This is a new teaching. Scripture does say God is close to all men but only some have God living within unto eternal life.

Adam is a son of God. What is the source of Adam's life, of his animation? God of course. If God breaths something into Adam, what is it except something from God himself. God gives us the gift of life. There is no life outside of the presence of God. As it says in scripture when a person dies their spirit?breath goes back to God. It goes back because that is where it came from in the first place.
Yes all men are born with the life giving breath of God in them. It is this that enlightens the conscience toward rigth and wrong long before we know of God. Like those that do the law of God without konwing it. Like the story of the prodigal son. Both were sons. One was obediant and the other not.
This is not the same as being filled with the Spirit/breath. That is a special additional filling for a specific purpose. As the breath of life animates humanity, the FILLING of the same breath brings us unto maturity. No one, in the OT was filled with the Spirit as we read of it in Acts. Christ opened th door for that to happen.
What I am speaking of is the presence of God in all of us. To begin just enough to give us physical life and perhaps operate our conscience. From then changed from glory to glory as we attain more of His spirit in our lives. As we yield more of our hearts to him and allow his breath to reside there. We come to aplace of the full stature of Christ who had the fullness of the essence of God/spirit/breath in him. In this proces we become one with God even as Christ was one with God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2007,07:37)

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Christ is more than a brother!

Is Abraham our brother?

Surely yes, and he is a father. In fact are we not children of Abraham?

Jesus calls us brethren and it is written that we will be like him.

The term “everlasting father” signifies that Jesus is greater than Abraham.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian ,
So you do not retract the view that God is present in all men?
Is it written?
When Adam partook of the knowledge of good and evil did that not give him a conscience-scrupulous beyond his ability to satisfy it -such that nakedness became sin to him?

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

But yes, curb anything if it offends. Don't eat meat if it offends.

That's really funny stuff. I needed that.

On another note, I'm trying boil down the issue between WJ and the rest of us. What is your argument WJ? Are you now suggesting that Jesus is the Father?

You have stated that T8 believes in many Gods because…why?

Upon what facts and statements by T8 do you bring this claim against T8?

Steven

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,07:41)

Hi WJ, “But for us there is ONE GOD the Father ….and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST.” That verse should clear up all your confusion but I doubt it will.

Hey Nick.

Obviously scripture isn't enough for WJ.
You also need to make it align it to a certain creed of man.

If you can do that, then WJ might agree.

But then, what do we have to gain from such?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Dec. 21 2007,08:10)

Quote But yes, curb anything if it offends. Don't eat meat if it offends. That's really funny stuff. I needed that. On another note, I'm trying boil down the issue between WJ and the rest of us. What is your argument WJ? Are you now suggesting that Jesus is the Father? You have stated that T8 believes in many Gods because…why? Upon what facts and statements by T8 do you bring this claim against T8? Steven

The difficult thing for WJ is that whatever he says about me regarding one God the Father, he is really saying to Paul.

Because I am only repeating what our brother Paul has said all those years ago.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2007,07:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2007,07:37) Isa 9:6 Christ is more than a brother! Is Abraham our brother? Surely yes, and he is a father. In fact are we not children of Abraham? Jesus calls us brethren and it is written that we will be like him. The term “everlasting father” signifies that Jesus is greater than Abraham.

TB
You night find it interesting that in my studies of Hebrew,I have discovered that the term “name” means character or reputation. In this sense the verse takes on ne meaning.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his character traits or reputation shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now you do not have a trinity proof text but rather a descripti0on of the character of Christ to come. To me it seems very simple and self evident.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,08:01)

Hi Martian , So you do not retract the view that God is present in all men? Is it written? When Adam partook of the knowledge of good and evil did that not give him a conscience-scrupulous beyond his ability to satisfy it -such that nakedness became sin to him?

say it in English please

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 21 2007,07:42)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,07:22) Hi martian, So the presence of God lives in all men? This is a new teaching. Scripture does say God is close to all men but only some have God living within unto eternal life. Adam is a son of God. What is the source of Adam's life, of his animation? God of course. If God breaths something into Adam, what is it except something from God himself. God gives us the gift of life. There is no life outside of the presence of God. As it says in scripture when a person dies their spirit?breath goes back to God. It goes back because that is where it came from in the first place. Yes all men are born with the life giving breath of God in them. It is this that enlightens the conscience toward rigth and wrong long before we know of God. Like those that do the law of God without konwing it. Like the story of the prodigal son. Both were sons. One was obediant and the other not. This is not the same as being filled with the Spirit/breath. That is a special additional filling for a specific purpose. As the breath of life animates humanity, the FILLING of the same breath brings us unto maturity. No one, in the OT was filled with the Spirit as we read of it in Acts. Christ opened th door for that to happen. What I am speaking of is the presence of God in all of us. To begin just enough to give us physical life and perhaps operate our conscience. From then changed from glory to glory as we attain more of His spirit in our lives. As we yield more of our hearts to him and allow his breath to reside there. We come to aplace of the full stature of Christ who had the fullness of the essence of God/spirit/breath in him. In this proces we become one with God even as Christ was one with God.

Amen to that Martian.

The Spirit we receive from God is continual or permanent. That is not to say that we can't lose it.

So all men have that initial breath which gives them life, but the continued breath gives us life eternal.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

One of the meanings of baptizo is to dip repeatedly.

There is an interesting article in Biblegateway on the word 'baptizo'. I will post it in the appropriate discussion.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2007,08:53)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 21 2007,07:42) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,07:22) Hi martian, So the presence of God lives in all men? This is a new teaching. Scripture does say God is close to all men but only some have God living within unto eternal life. Adam is a son of God. What is the source of Adam's life, of his animation? God of course. If God breaths something into Adam, what is it except something from God himself. God gives us the gift of life. There is no life outside of the presence of God. As it says in scripture when a person dies their spirit?breath goes back to God. It goes back because that is where it came from in the first place. Yes all men are born with the life giving breath of God in them. It is this that enlightens the conscience toward rigth and wrong long before we know of God. Like those that do the law of God without konwing it. Like the story of the prodigal son. Both were sons. One was obediant and the other not. This is not the same as being filled with the Spirit/breath. That is a special additional filling for a specific purpose. As the breath of life animates humanity, the FILLING of the same breath brings us unto maturity. No one, in the OT was filled with the Spirit as we read of it in Acts. Christ opened th door for that to happen. What I am speaking of is the presence of God in all of us. To begin just enough to give us physical life and perhaps operate our conscience. From then changed from glory to glory as we attain more of His spirit in our lives. As we yield more of our hearts to him and allow his breath to reside there. We come to aplace of the full stature of Christ who had the fullness of the essence of God/spirit/breath in him. In this proces we become one with God even as Christ was one with God. Amen to that Martian. The Spirit we receive from God is continual or permanent. That is not to say that we can't lose it. So all men have that initial breath which gives them life, but the continued breath gives us life eternal. Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. One of the meanings of baptizo is to dip repeatedly. There is an interesting article in Biblegateway on the word 'baptizo'. I will post it in the appropriate discussion.

Thanks for seeing that —
Speaking of baptism, the precedent for baptism is found in the great commission.
There is mounting evidence that the 3 synoptic gospels (Mat. Mark and luke) plus the beginning chapters of Acts were originally written in Hebrew and not greek. Archeological discoveries in the Dead Sea Scrolls and others point out that the Hebrew language was very much in use and overshadowed the Greek or Aramaic in use among the people of Israel. The writings of these portions of scripture also was before the gpspel went out to the gentiles..John on the other hand wrote his gospel much later and wrote in Greek to reach the broader world. Israel being a small portion of the world it is no surprise that none of these original manuscripts exist. thee would have been few in existance compared to those tyranslated into Greek to be spread abroad.We also have no original manuscripts of the Greek.
When one studies ancient Hebrew and translates these gospels into Hebrew a much broader picture arrises.
The Great commission.
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This verse has been used for several doctrinal proofs and in most cases wrongly.
The word “baptise” was purposely misstranslated by the KJV to avoid correcting the Catholic Church and the Church of England. the word should be translated emmersed or submerged. King James did not want the doctrine of sprinkling babies disproved. Taking that proper translation and the rest in the Hebrew understanding tis verse takes on a new face. This verse has been used as proof of water baptism and the
Trinity. It is not about either.

First let’s define some of the key words from a Hebrew perspective.

Disciple = Follower
Name = Character trait
Father = He who gives strength to the family.
Son = offspring who is like the father
Holy = Set asside for a special purpose
Spirit = breath/ source of life
Baptize = emmerse (Gr)

With these understandings in place look at the verse again.

Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life.

Now you have a verse that outlines the real commission of God.To train people in the Character of God as depicted in His son Jesus. this training requires continual emersion in the character of God as seen in Christ.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2007,08:31)

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Dec. 21 2007,08:10) Quote But yes, curb anything if it offends. Don't eat meat if it offends.  That's really funny stuff. I needed that. On another note, I'm trying boil down the issue between WJ and the rest of us. What is your argument WJ?  Are you now suggesting that Jesus is the Father? You have stated that T8 believes in many Gods because…why?   Upon what facts and statements by T8 do you bring this claim against T8?   Steven The difficult thing for WJ is that whatever he says about me regarding one God the Father, he is really saying to Paul. Because I am only repeating what our brother Paul has said all those years ago.

t8

Really?

You say there are many gods.

Paul nor the Hebrew scriptures says any such thing!!!

Exod 23:13
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

1 Cor 8:4
Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

Henotheism nor Polytheism is taught in scriptures.

What men have called gods are not gods at all.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Is anyone listening to your repeated creedal theories except you?
Poor soil here for manmade theories about God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2007,12:28)

t8 Really? You say there are many gods. Paul nor the Hebrew scriptures says any such thing!!! Exod 23:13 “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth.

He he.

That is why for US there is one God the Father.
But for you there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit.

That sums it up.

The more you flog that 3rd century doctrine, the more ignorant you show yourself to be. Like waves of shame frothing up for all to see.

[martian]

Wacca Wacca

[martian]

WJ is entertaining and that is what I am here for. LOL

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 21 2007,13:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2007,12:28) t8 Really? You say there are many gods. Paul nor the Hebrew scriptures says any such thing!!! Exod 23:13 “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth. Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. 1 Cor 8:4 Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” Henotheism nor Polytheism is taught in scriptures. What men have called gods are not gods at all. He he. That is why for US there is one God the Father.

So then Yeshua is not a god, (Theos)?

So you admit there are not any other gods?

Quote

But for you there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit.

Yes t8, for me there is “One God” that created all things, not “One God” and a little god.

See…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Isa 37:16
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Job 9:8
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Col 1:6
For by him (Yeshua) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

If you look close at those scriptures you will see there is 3 involved in the creation of all things.

And if you go all the way back to Genesis 1 you will see all three…remember the “Let us make man in our image and after our likness”.

Here is a couple especially for the Henotheist and the Polytheist…

Jer 10:11
Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

I guess God is gonna destroy those true angels and true men!!!

Pss 96:5
For *all* the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

You see t8, none could make the world but God, because creation is a work of infinite power, and could not be produced by any finite cause: For the distance between being and not being is truly infinite, which could not be removed by any finite agent, or the activity of all finite agents united.

God did not use a lessor being to create all things through.

Rom 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Quote

That sums it up. The more you flog that 3rd century doctrine, the more ignorant you show yourself to be. Like waves of shame frothing up for all to see.

Wow! For that I leave you with this…

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Its not a wise thing to call a man “ignorant”, t8.

“RACA Matt 5:22

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I think we need a special thread for WJ to argue against Paul.

[martian]

You can educate ignorance BUT, there is no cure for stupid.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2007,17:57)

So then Yeshua is not a god, (Theos)?

I will say it again WJ.

-There is one WHO is God.
– There are some who are like God, have qualities like God, have authority from God. They too can be called theos.
– There are false gods, who are called theos.

Similarly,

– there is one Devil.
– There are some who are like the Devil or have qualities of the Devil, they can be called devils

Similarly,

– there is one Man (Adam)
– there are many men (adams) or offspring from Adam

Now in all 3 cases it is correct to say that there is:
– One God
– One Devil
– One Man (original)

Please re-read the above.

But in all cases they can also be talking of quality/nature/likeness.

So WJ, it is really just about admitting that scripture uses theos in such ways. Forget about your 3rd century doctrine and just look at the way scripture uses God/god, Devil/devil, Man/man.

The reason you cannot grasp it is because you are blinded by your own understanding. But sure keep the entertainment pumping. If you want to be the clown or Devils advocate, then go ahead. You have free will.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2007,18:03)

Hi, I think we need a special thread for WJ to argue against Paul.

Hey maybe WJ could organise a debate with Paul in the 'Debates' forum?

If Paul cannot debate in person, then I will gladly stand in and just quote Paul's words on his behalf.

[Author]

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