The Trinity Doctrine

[Morningstar]

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:39) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,09:48) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,08:58) I really don't see why people can't grasp how God is a title. In the Old Testament we rely on context and other grammatical rules in order to translate elohim as God or gods. elohim plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. then when we do the same thing in english people get in an uproar. I agree with this, but do you also agree that God was in Christ? That God can be in anyone, and that doesn't make the one whom he is in, God himself? If God turns up, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the invisible God is inside a vessel. How else can the eternal spirit appear to men? Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. t8 You said… Quote Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. Is the Father God of his own Image? How foolish to think that the Image of God is less than himself. If his image is a lessor being than himself, then it wouldnt be his image would it? Next time my says I haven't spent enough time with her, I will remind her of your philosophy and that I have been caring her picture in my wallet.

sorry my fingers got carried away. this should read:

Next time my WIFE says I haven't spent enough time with her, I will remind her of your philosophy and that I have been caring her picture in my wallet.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:39) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,09:48) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,08:58) I really don't see why people can't grasp how God is a title. In the Old Testament we rely on context and other grammatical rules in order to translate elohim as God or gods. elohim plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. then when we do the same thing in english people get in an uproar. I agree with this, but do you also agree that God was in Christ? That God can be in anyone, and that doesn't make the one whom he is in, God himself? If God turns up, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the invisible God is inside a vessel. How else can the eternal spirit appear to men? Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. t8 You said… Quote Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. Is the Father God of his own Image? How foolish to think that the Image of God is less than himself. If his image is a lessor being than himself, then it wouldnt be his image would it? Next time my says I haven't spent enough time with her, I will remind her of your philosophy and that I have been caring her picture in my wallet.

MS

Do you have a picture of God?

Is not his image and nature infinite?

Is not his attributes infinite?

Sure tell your wife you have a picture of her and it is her image.

But please dont tell her the picture is here twin sister!

[Morningstar]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:50)

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:39) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,09:48) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,08:58) I really don't see why people can't grasp how God is a title. In the Old Testament we rely on context and other grammatical rules in order to translate elohim as God or gods. elohim plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. then when we do the same thing in english people get in an uproar. I agree with this, but do you also agree that God was in Christ? That God can be in anyone, and that doesn't make the one whom he is in, God himself? If God turns up, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the invisible God is inside a vessel. How else can the eternal spirit appear to men? Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. t8 You said… Quote Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. Is the Father God of his own Image? How foolish to think that the Image of God is less than himself. If his image is a lessor being than himself, then it wouldnt be his image would it? Next time my says I haven't spent enough time with her, I will remind her of your philosophy and that I have been caring her picture in my wallet. MS Do you have a picture of God? Is not his image and nature infinite? Is not his attributes infinite? Sure tell your wife you have a picture of her and it is her image. But please dont tell her the picture is here twin sister!

Yes I have a picture of God, but not a picture seen with the eyes. But one viewed through words and deeds, Jesus Christ, a divine son, who became a man and then returned to his divine son status.

The firstborn over all creation who is indeed unique as the only one truly begotten of the Father. Yet, us the sons of men can be born again, born from above, being begotten in the express image of the Father as well. Then we truly are sons of God and Jesus is our brother.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:50)

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:39) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,09:48) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,08:58) I really don't see why people can't grasp how God is a title. In the Old Testament we rely on context and other grammatical rules in order to translate elohim as God or gods. elohim plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. then when we do the same thing in english people get in an uproar. I agree with this, but do you also agree that God was in Christ? That God can be in anyone, and that doesn't make the one whom he is in, God himself? If God turns up, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the invisible God is inside a vessel. How else can the eternal spirit appear to men? Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. t8 You said… Quote Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. Is the Father God of his own Image? How foolish to think that the Image of God is less than himself. If his image is a lessor being than himself, then it wouldnt be his image would it? Next time my says I haven't spent enough time with her, I will remind her of your philosophy and that I have been caring her picture in my wallet. MS Do you have a picture of God? Is not his image and nature infinite? Is not his attributes infinite? Sure tell your wife you have a picture of her and it is her image. But please dont tell her the picture is here twin sister!

MS

By the way..

Does the picture show everything about your wife?

Then it is not her express image.

Does the picture show how tall she is or how much she wieghs or how intellegent she is or what her voice sounds like or what kind of food she likes or dislikes Etc Etc?

Then your picture is not the express image of your wife is it?

It is simply a dead image of your wife.

What being but God can reveal all that he is?

Unless you want to say that Yeshua only reveals part of God.

[Morningstar]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,11:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:50) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:39) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,09:48) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,08:58) I really don't see why people can't grasp how God is a title. In the Old Testament we rely on context and other grammatical rules in order to translate elohim as God or gods. elohim plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. then when we do the same thing in english people get in an uproar. I agree with this, but do you also agree that God was in Christ? That God can be in anyone, and that doesn't make the one whom he is in, God himself? If God turns up, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the invisible God is inside a vessel. How else can the eternal spirit appear to men? Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. t8 You said… Quote Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. Is the Father God of his own Image? How foolish to think that the Image of God is less than himself. If his image is a lessor being than himself, then it wouldnt be his image would it? Next time my says I haven't spent enough time with her, I will remind her of your philosophy and that I have been caring her picture in my wallet. MS Do you have a picture of God? Is not his image and nature infinite? Is not his attributes infinite? Sure tell your wife you have a picture of her and it is her image. But please dont tell her the picture is here twin sister! MS By the way.. Does the picture show everything about your wife? Then it is not her express image. Does the picture show how tall she is or how much she wieghs or how intellegent she is or what her voice sounds like or what kind of food she likes or dislikes Etc Etc? Then your picture is not the express image of your wife is it? It is simply a dead image of your wife. What being but God can reveal all that he is? Unless you want to say that Yeshua only reveals part of God.

Good points!

My analogy was not up to the task. However, Jesus didn't appear as a picture he appeared as a man. God could not have been fully demonstrated by an icon or idol. Jesus revealed the Father in word and deed.

Jesus was this complete picture. But he was not the image itself, but a picture of it.

[Morningstar]

clarification:

Jesus was not the Father himself but an image of him.

Yes, I believe God fully dwelled with in him. He was fully divine and fully God-like.

But he was not the Father.

so yes he was fully God as I think we will be.

as long as you keep in mind the numerous posts I have made about the “title” God. And how we DO NOT usurp the supremacy of the Father.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:49)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:45) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:34) WJ, there truly is no other eternal immortal omnipotent source of all than the Father. But there ARE appointed sons of God who have been given position of authority they are “archons” or rulers, principalities and powers.   These beings are called gods (in the sense of title expressing their Father given authority and power).  Granted they are not immortal or omnipotent or omnicient nor eternal etc…. God is a title!!!! There is only one Father!  GOD There are many sons!  GODS a complete and utter confusion has occured because of words, titles and semantics. MS You have still not answered the question how can Yeshua be… “Omnipresent” Omniscient” and “Omnipotent” if he is not the True God? I dont think he is any of those things. Any of those traits that may appear to be manifest is directly the result of the Father moving within him. He does not do or say anything but what the Father gives him to do or say.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:45)

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:34) WJ, there truly is no other eternal immortal omnipotent source of all than the Father. But there ARE appointed sons of God who have been given position of authority they are “archons” or rulers, principalities and powers.   These beings are called gods (in the sense of title expressing their Father given authority and power).  Granted they are not immortal or omnipotent or omnicient nor eternal etc…. God is a title!!!! There is only one Father!  GOD There are many sons!  GODS a complete and utter confusion has occured because of words, titles and semantics. MS You have still not answered the question how can Yeshua be… “Omnipresent” Omniscient” and “Omnipotent” if he is not the True God?

MS

You said…

Quote

I dont think he is any of those things. Any of those traits that may appear to be manifest is directly the result of the Father moving within him.

Huh? Traits? Those are attributes of Gods nature.

Has God made a being or god that is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent.?

Can God reveal his Omnipresence through another?

Can God reveal his Omnipotence through another?

Can another have Omnisceince?

You say…

Quote

He does not do or say anything but what the Father gives him to do or say.

True, but the Father and the Spirit does not do anything apart from the Son. Hello!!!

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:45)

Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 07 2007,10:34) WJ, there truly is no other eternal immortal omnipotent source of all than the Father. But there ARE appointed sons of God who have been given position of authority they are “archons” or rulers, principalities and powers.   These beings are called gods (in the sense of title expressing their Father given authority and power).  Granted they are not immortal or omnipotent or omnicient nor eternal etc…. God is a title!!!! There is only one Father!  GOD There are many sons!  GODS a complete and utter confusion has occured because of words, titles and semantics. MS You have still not answered the question how can Yeshua be… “Omnipresent” Omniscient” and “Omnipotent” if he is not the True God?

Hi MS,
Yes of course how could you when theologians have defined such matters as proving a being is God?
Get with the program.

Actually it would be better to kick those clowns out who speak in such lofty terms and listen to Jesus.

He who is truth never used such words.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:39)

t8 You said… Quote Jesus just happens to be the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is not the God that he is the image of. Is the Father God of his own Image? How foolish to think that the Image of God is less than himself. If his image is a lessor being than himself, then it wouldnt be his image would it?

Now you have really done it.

I mention that he is the image of God and then you go on about the image being the equal of the original an assumption on your behalf.

First off, you have just admitted that he is not the original God.

You talk of God and his image.

Thank you for admitting this.

Progress is being made, even if you consider it a slip up by yourself.

Also, an image can reflect in full, but it is still not that which it reflects. And images are not the source.

Get it now?

I doubt it, but no harm in asking aye!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:22)

t8 I put the emphasis back in of the no God but one quote that you removed.

What?

[martian]

When Jsus healed people, was it via his human nature or his divine nature?

[kejonn]

Just curious, but if I make a date with someone and sent an image of myself, do you think I would get another date? Or how about I send an image of myself to work tomorrow. That would be nice. they might just send me an image of my paycheck at the end of the month along with a very legitimate (not an image) pink slip.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,10:22)

A few? I only mentioned a few, yes. How many does it take. Do you have any that says other wise?

Ha ha ha ha.

A few versus hundreds.

And the sad part for you is that the few do not break scripture if read in context, and in the correct way.

That really made me laugh WJ.

You truly must be deluded to even consider that as a good argument.

[kejonn]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 06 2007,20:34)

When Jsus healed people, was it via his human nature or his divine nature?

Neither. Just like any other man of God, it was the power of YHWH working through the messenger.

[Proclaimer]

Sorry WJ, but I am going to paint the picture for you.

In your mind you must be convinced that you are the last one standing who has the truth as all the other Trinitarians have left, I think. Perhaps even pride makes you think you are like Elijah, having the truth and willing to keep it no matter what, even if you are the only one left in the world who believes in the Trinity.

But in truth WJ, you are not worthy to teach, but in your ignorance you continue to espouse traditions of men, thinking that you are doing the will of God. You are deluded in this aspect.

You know, there are even people that think that killing US is the will of God.

And God even hands people over to their own delusions. If they push in a certain direction, God may resist them, but the ultimate judgement for them is when God doesn't try to stop them and lets them go on their merry way, deceiving and being deceived.

WJ, you should consider what you are really doing. The vision you may have of yourself is in truth not as grand as you may think. In fact you will be judged for everything you have taught here. You should pray that the consequences are as less as possible, because you are responsible for every soul that you may lead astray with your teachings.

[NickHassan]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 07 2007,13:34)

When Jsus healed people, was it via his human nature or his divine nature?

Hi Martian.
He was a normal human.

He had emptied himself and come in real human likeness.

The divine nature was not him but God in him as Spirit reconciling the world to himself.

He could do nothing of himself.

Those who really knew him would know both him and His Father.

[Morningstar]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,13:45)

Sorry WJ, but I am going to paint the picture for you. In your mind you must be convinced that you are the last one standing who has the truth as all the other Trinitarians have left, I think. Perhaps even pride makes you think you are like Elijah, having the truth and willing to keep it no matter what, even if you are the only one left in the world who believes in the Trinity. But in truth WJ, you are not worthy to teach, but in your ignorance you continue to espouse traditions of men, thinking that you are doing the will of God. You are deluded in this aspect. You know, there are even people that think that killing US is the will of God. And God even hands people over to their own delusions. If they push in a certain direction, God may resist them, but the ultimate judgement for them is when God doesn't try to stop them and lets them go on their merry way, deceiving and being deceived. WJ, you should consider what you are really doing. The vision you may have of yourself is in truth not as grand as you may think. In fact you will be judged for everything you have taught here. You should pray that the consequences are as less as possible, because you are responsible for every soul that you may lead astray with your teachings.

While I agree with you in principle t8 I must say that only God knows WJ's heart.

I know you know this as well. I just thought it needed said.

[Proclaimer]

Well if a man is shown truth and scripture and continues to teach falsely or even another gospel, then you do not have many choices as to why.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,13:49)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 07 2007,13:34) When Jsus healed people, was it via his human nature or his divine nature? Hi Martian. He was a normal human. He had emptied himself and come in real human likeness. The divine nature was not him but God in him as Spirit reconciling the world to himself. He could do nothing of himself. Those who really knew him would know both him and His Father.

Right — So if it was the Father working through Him then it was not necessary for Jesus to be divinity for Him to do miracles.

[NickHassan]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 07 2007,15:05)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,13:49) Quote (martian @ Dec. 07 2007,13:34) When Jsus healed people, was it via his human nature or his divine nature? Hi Martian. He was a normal human. He had emptied himself and come in real human likeness. The divine nature was not him but God in him as Spirit reconciling the world to himself. He could do nothing of himself. Those who really knew him would know both him and His Father. Right — So if it was the Father working through Him then it was not necessary for Jesus to be divinity for Him to do miracles.

True martian,
Look at him
Is 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

[Author]

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