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One gallant champion of the doctrine tried to illustrate it by means of three candles, which he lit, explaining to his audience: “There are three candles – quite separate from and independent, of each other, and yet there is but one light”. “Yes”, remarked one of the onlookers; “True, but you must admit there are three candles, and not one candle”.
To be consistent with his creed, the Trinitarian would have to say, “There is one candle on the right, one candle on the left, and one candle in the middle; and yet there are not three candles, but one candle”!History of the Trinity
The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set forth in the following facts:
A.D. 29 Jesus said, “The Lord our God is one Lord” (Mark 12:29).
A.D. 57 Paul said, “To us there is but one God” (1 Cor. 8:6).
A.D. 96 Clement said, “Christ was sent by God”.
A.D. 120 “Apostles' Creed”: “I believe in God the Father”.
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word “Trias”, appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200. “Trinitas” is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: “Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God”.
A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.
A.D. 325 “Nicene Creed” afflrms Christ to be “Very God of Very God”.
A.D. 370 Doxology composed.
A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents “Three persons in One God”.
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.
A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.
A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the “Athanasian Creed”.
A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the ” Athanasian Creed” every Sunday
Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 06 2007,16:21) Quote (martian @ Dec. 06 2007,15:41) Nick
The doctrine of the ?Trinity should fade out of honest discussion since it has no real scriptural basis.
Most important to me i not trying to “scripturally prove” that my understanding is correct because I am more interested in being like Jesus then being intelectually “correct. If a person's so called “intelectual/scriptural” understanding/doctrine does not promote your becomig like Christ, it must be wrong. No matter how much supposed proof they exhibit it must pas the test of functioning toward the goal of making sons like Christ.The doctrine of the trinity does nothing to make me like Christ. Christ as a human being makes him the first of many brethren (us) the perfect example and the first fruit. a man that has suffered even as I have suffered and truly understands my weaknesses. He is the perfect pattern and example because he proves that perfected humanity is possible. what bigger faith builder can there be?
I agree, Martian.Salvation is not based on knowledge. Thank God!
It is not like the gnostics call “the gnosis”. It is a gift from God by Grace.
Follow Christ and do not loose what you gained. Amen!
The major problems arise from those that insist that scripture is the measuring rod for us. This is simply not true. Christ is the example and the measuring rod. He is the corner stone unto which all others ae measured. All doctrines and teachings must line up with the character and plan of God in Christ.Hi Martian,
He fulfilled scripture.
Lk4
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.Quote You are the polytheist WJ. You claim 3 co-equal beings in your pantheon.
I claim only ONE TRUE ETERNAL GOD.
I know know you believe 3 are one.
Well what if I believe myriads and myriads and thousands and ten thousands were actually one.
This is an excellent point. Why three in one? Whith the same reasoning you could believe seven in one or one hundred in one.
What did Jesus say? There is but one God and to love him with all your heart, all of your soul, all of your spirit, and all of your strength is the great commandment. If Christ wanted to articulate a three in one truth he had many opportunities to do so, but didn't because there is only one true God.
God exalted Christ, but Jesus never said he was God. He said he was the Son of God along with every other person in the New Testament. The trinity doctrine espoused today in many respects differs from what is stated in the Nicean Creed of 325 A.D. “God from God, light from light, true God from true God” That's not a statement that Christ is the eternal Son of God. That's more like, “This day have I begotten thee” This day. On a certain day Christ was begotten. Yet modern trinitarians teach that he is eternal and not begotten. Trinitarians are confused. They confess Christ is begotten in their creeds, but teach he was not begotten because they believe he is an eternal Son. An eternal son. If there ever was an oxymoron that's it. If Christ is eternal than a belief that he is a God from God or a Light from Light is a contradiction because he cannot be begotten if he always existed as God.
Christ was begotten by God before he came into the world because all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. Of course, Jesus said he would return to where he was before so if you believe what Christ taught he was begotten by God before coming into the world.
Steven
Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 06 2007,18:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 06 2007,17:53) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 06 2007,00:49) The only thing that I tend to perhaps disagree with is that I believe those acting as “one” with him in unity and spirit gain that title as being a member of his divine family. Ephesians 5:14
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Revelation 3:12
12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
Just as the angels who visited Abraham were working at one with the Father and were called YHWH.
Genesis 19
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Hello MS.Been away for awhile.
But I have noticed I missed quite a bit.
Not enough time to address all of your points but will catch up on some. Starting with the most recent.
You say…
Quote
The only thing that I tend to perhaps disagree with is that I believe those acting as “one” with him in unity and spirit gain that title as being a member of his divine family.Ephesians 5:14
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
First of all I see that you are you using the NIV.
However several translations of the verse disagree with your view that this scripture means God has a family of gods.
Eph 3:15 ESV
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesNASB – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
American Standard Version 1901 InfoYoung – Eph 3:15 – of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 InfoDarby – Eph 3:15 – of whom every family in [the] heavens and on earth is named,
From what I have been reading you are promoting blatant Polytheism.
What do you think of this scripture…
Exod 23:13
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth“.How do you explain this in light of your teaching that there are many gods?
There are more scriptures, but this one will suffice.
I would say that there are many bosses and one God because nobody around here understands the Term God is a title.
MSYes, many “bosses”, rulers, judges, which also is part of the definition of “Eloyim”.
Tell you what…Giive me one NT example of scripture where an apostle or disciple of Yeshua called any other being “theos” other than the obvious false gods.
For the word “Angel” is the greek word 'aggelos' which simply means “messenger”.
Translated angel 179 times and messenger 7 times in the NT.
Only the Father and Yeshua are called “Theos” except for the obvious opposites of God.
Ignatious, and many of the church Fathers never called any other being a “true” god.
John 17:3 says plainly…
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The word for “only” is “monos” which means…
1) alone (without a companion), forsaken, destitute of help, alone, only, merely
Amazing, Yeshua puts his own name next to the Father which would be a total denial of the Hebrew text that says there is “None” beside him.
Also John confirming Yeshuas Deity in John 1:1 and 1 Jn 5:20
NET
5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.
5:21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols.Not to mention that to say that all things were made by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made would also be a contradiction to the Hebrew text whcih clearly teaches God “Alone” By himself” “None other” created all things.
Perfectly lining up wit with Gen 1:26
Let us make man in our own image after our likness.
You have still not answered the question how can Yeshua be…
“Omnipresent” Omniscient” and “Omnipotent” if he is not the true God?To have those attributes he would have to be equal to the Father in nature.
You can not align all of scriptures apart from the Trinitarian view.
Exod 23:13
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth“.I agree with you “YHWH”, Yeshua spoke these words for he is “One” with the Father in every way.
We shall be “Like him” but we will not share the above attributes which belong to God alone.
This is another attempt to take away the Deity of the Lord by making him out to be a god or among the sons of god. In other words he is no different than we are.
All you have done MS is expound on the JWS doctrine that Yeshua is a god.
I imagine that you interpret John 1:1 the same way.
Exod 23:13
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth“.
Hi MS,
The old trinity one-two-three from WJ.
First there is only one god and all others called gods are not.
Then find scriptures calling Jesus GOD.
Then by implication he must somehow be the one God.
You have reached the binity theory.
Add the Spirit of God Himself…. and ET VOILA …TRINITYBut all this nonsense avoids the simple fact that TRINITY IS NOT A SCRIPTURAL TEACHING.
It is a human invention.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,07:56) Hi MS,
The old trinity one-two-three from WJ.
First there is only one god and all others called gods are not.
Then find scriptures calling Jesus GOD.
Then by implication he must somehow be the one God.
You have reached the binity theory.
Add the Spirit of God Himself…. and ET VOILA …TRINITYBut all this nonsense avoids the simple fact that TRINITY IS NOT A SCRIPTURAL TEACHING.
It is a human invention.
NHWell, make up your mind is there “One God” or many gods like t8 and MS teach?
And if you say “There is One God” then what about scriptures that say Yeshua is God?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,08:09) Hi WJ,
FOR US there is ONE GOD.
Are you with US?
NHProbably not, if I have to believe Yeshua is just a mere man like us in everyway.
Hi WJ,
You just have to believe scripture.” .. for us there is ONE GOD, the Father..”
Cut to the chase and decry philosophical speculations.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,08:26) Hi WJ,
You just have to believe scripture.” .. for us there is ONE GOD, the Father..”
Cut to the chase and decry philosophical speculations.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
NHIf you say…
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
over and over does not make it so.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,08:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,08:09) Hi WJ,
FOR US there is ONE GOD.
Are you with US?
NHProbably not, if I have to believe Yeshua is just a mere man like us in everyway.
Paul was one of USBut are you saying you are not one of US, WJ?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,08:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,08:26) Hi WJ,
You just have to believe scripture.” .. for us there is ONE GOD, the Father..”
Cut to the chase and decry philosophical speculations.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
NHIf you say…
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
Trinity is not taught in scripture no matter how attractive it may seem to you intellectually.
over and over does not make it so.
Hi WJ,
Quite so.
It is now no more taught is scripture than it was 5 minutes ago.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2007,08:24) NH Probably not, if I have to believe Yeshua is just a mere man like us in everyway.
You should believe what scripture says about him.He came in the flesh.
If he had human flesh, then what was he?
I will give you a clue, it begins with H or M?
Hi WJ,
Since trinity is not taught in scripture and you are convinced it is true then you are faced with some choices.
Either:
SCRIPTURE IS NOT THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
or
SCRIPTURE IS INCOMPLETE
or
YOU KNOW MORE THAN SCRIPTURENH
You say…
Quote
Hi WJ,
You just have to believe scripture.Then what about believing in Yeshua?
How many gods do you believe in???
For you are only supposed to believe in “One”.
But if this is true that you should only believe and trust in one “God” for your Sallvation, then why do you believe and trust in 2?
The Father and Yeshua. Are they not “ONE”?
While we are “one with them, we are not “The Saviour”.
So obviously our “oneness” with the Father and the Son is not the same as Yeshuas who is the Express Image of his (the Fathers) person/substance/essence.
For Scripture teachs that God alone is our Savoiur!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,08:50) Hi WJ,
Since trinity is not taught in scripture and you are convinced it is true then you are faced with some choices.
Either:
SCRIPTURE IS NOT THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
or
SCRIPTURE IS INCOMPLETE
or
YOU KNOW MORE THAN SCRIPTURE
NHYou can say….
SCRIPTURE IS NOT THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
or
SCRIPTURE IS INCOMPLETE
or
YOU KNOW MORE THAN SCRIPTURESCRIPTURE IS NOT THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
or
SCRIPTURE IS INCOMPLETE
or
YOU KNOW MORE THAN SCRIPTURESCRIPTURE IS NOT THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
or
SCRIPTURE IS INCOMPLETE
or
YOU KNOW MORE THAN SCRIPTUREover and over and it does not make it so.
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