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Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 05 2007,19:50) W H O I S G O D ? This is an Article that my Husband wrote.
Ask this question today in our 21st Century and the answer would be obvious. Most people would point upwards and say, “God is God”. 2000 years ago the answer would not have been so obvious. The Romans had many gods; a god of thunder, a god of lightening, a god of rain, a god of war, a god of love, ect, ect. There is something else people associate with the word god, supernatural powers. In ancient times people would chisel a statue out of rock, or carve a figure out of wood, or shape a figure out of metal, and then call it their god. They would then worship and sacrifice before this god. We may laugh at that today, but then, this was serious business, because people were sacrificed to these gods. But in those days there were also none deities’ gods. People with great political power were gods, so were strong military leaders, or wealthy businessmen. They were all considered mighty men, gods, minus the supernatural powers.
Ps. 82: 1 “ God (the Almighty God) standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judges among the gods.”
v. 6 “ I have said, ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High,”
Today we no longer think of them as gods, if we work for them, we would call them Boss. And really that is what the word god stands for, a strong one, a powerful one, and a mighty one. Except when we speak of thee God in heaven, he is the Almighty God, the all-powerful one.
Ps. 86:8 “Among the gods there is none like unto thee O LORD…”
And just as all the gods had names, so did the Almighty God.
Ps. 83:18 “ That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most High over all the earth.”
Is. 42:8 “ I am the LORD (Jehovah): that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images”.
“Jehovah” is the name of the Almighty God, “Yahweh” in Hebrew. The name occurs 6823 times in the O.T., and yet in my bible, the King James, it is only written four times; other translation mentions the name at all. No wonder people think “God” is God’s name. There is a reason why God’s name was omitted. The “Scribes”, a Jewish religious sect, in charge of copying the scriptures, had such a reverence for the name, a fear of using the name in vain, they would not speak it or write it; and so they replaced the name Jehovah with “the LORD”, LORD in capital letters. So, where ever you read “the LORD”, you should know it should say, “Jehovah”
Why can nobody else call himself by that name? Because the definition of the name is;
The everlasting one;
The self-existing one;
The immortal one;
What this means is simply this; God’s existence depends on nothing and no one else; He has always existed, and he can never die, he is immortal, death is impossible. Paul tells us only God is immortal.
1 Tim. 1:17 “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
1 Tim. 6:16 “Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”
The bible also speaks of only one God.
Ex. 8:10 “… know that there is none like unto the LORD (Jehovah) God.”
Deut. 4:35”…know that the LORD (Jehovah) he is God, there is none else beside him”.
Is. 40:13 “Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?”
v. 25 “ To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? Saith the Holy One “.
Is. 45:18 “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”
Is. 46:9 “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, there is none like me.”
Mark 12:32“…well, Master, thou has said the truth, for there is one God and there is none other but he.”
1 Cor. 8:4 “… and that there is none other God but one”.
v. 5 “ For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many “.)
v. 6 “ But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”.
Why is it, that we have so many clear scriptures that teach us, there is only one God? And why are there no scriptures that clearly show God is a trinity? Because there are none, God is not the author of confusion.
1 Cor. 14:33 “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
There is absolutely nothing in these scriptures above that indicates there are three persons. Infect they emphasize that Jehovah, the Father, is God. If Jesus was God, and equal to God, Is. 40:25 should not be in your bible, and Jesus should not be called his son. God has no equal.
History tells us, a triune god is nothing new. The Egyptians worshiped a triune god long before Christ; Osiris the father, Horus the son, and Ises the virgin. I find the resemblance to the present doctrine of the trinity very interesting, to say the least. India too, is worshiping a triad god, Siva, Brahma and Vishnu. So did the Babylonians, Ishtar, Sin and Shamash. Doesn’t that make you wonder at all? We read in,
1 John 4:12 “No one has seen God at any time…”
If Jesus were “God”, that scripture would not be true, especially since Jesus was the one that said it.
John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time…”
Paul says, whether we call someone else god, either in heaven or hear on earth, there is only one God, the Father, the Almighty God. Why do we call God, Father? The definition of the word is, life giver. All life begins with God, and that includes his son Jesus. Why is Jesus called the son? The son is he who receives life from the Father. That is why we read in;
John 3:16 “ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son…”
v. 17 “ For God sent not his son into the world…”
God gave his son, God sent his son. In other words, Jesus did not become the Fathers son when he was born of Mary; he was his son long before then. After all, did he not create everything?
Col. 1:16 “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth…”
If Jesus had become a son when he was born of Mary; should not the Holy Spirit be his father?
Mat. 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary
was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of
the Holy Ghost.”
You must have wondered about that yourself. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, is he God? Is he a person? Do we know his name? Does he have a name? I don’t mean “helper” or “comforter”; those are not names, that is what God’s Holy Spirit does, he helps us, and comforts us. Should it not surprise us that everything in the Universe has a name?
Ps. 147:4 “ He telleth the number of the stars, he calleth them all by their names”.
Except the one (person?), whom we credit with being most influential in our Christian life, the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit was a person, was God, God would have made that very clear in scripture, and again, it would make the Holy Spirit another equal to God. This is only more confusion. Many will reason and say, Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a “he”, that is prove of a person.
John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which
is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send, in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
If one little word, “he”, is prove that the Holy Spirit is a person, than the same must be said of another little word, “her”.
Mk. 13:28 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.”
Now you may not find the word “her” in all translation, but it is in my bible, “The Ryrie Study Bible, King James version”. And even if it were present in every bible, no one would assume the fig tree was a woman.
There is not a single scripture that says, the Spirit is God, all scriptures say, the Spirit of God, God’s Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of the Lord. Never is the Spirit addressed in the way we address the Father or the Son; and both are called by their name, so why is the Holy Spirit never called by his name? He has no name; he does not exist, as a third person that is.
I have a question; who raised up Jesus from the dead, God, meaning the Father, or the Spirit?
Acts 13:30 “But God raised him from the dead.”
So, is Paul contradicting himself when he says in Romans it was the Spirit?
Rom. 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
It was the Spirit OF God that raised up Jesus, not another person. God has a spirit, Christ has a spirit, Paul had a spirit, I have a spirit, you have a spirit, everybody has a spirit; we call it a mind. You never heard any one say; are you out of your spirit? Or, have you lost your spirit? Whether we call it spirit or mind, its all the same, the difference is; God’s Spirit is Holy, ours is not.
May I also bring to your attention that Paul’s letters, Peter’s and John’s, all start with, “Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ”, never a mentioning of the “Holy Spirit.” If I was the Holy Spirit I would feel left out, wouldn’t you?
Paul always gives thanks to the Father.
Rom. 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all…”
1 Cor. 1:4 “I thank my God always on your behalf…”
Phil. 1:3 “I thank my God upon every remembrance of you.”
Col. 1:3 “We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
1Thes. 1:2 “We give thanks to God always for you all…”
My point is this; considering what the Holy Spirit does for us, would he not deserve some thanks too?
John says, if we abide in the doctrine of Christ we have both, the father and the Son; should we not have all three?
2 John 9 “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.”
v. 10 “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God’s speed.”
Very powerful words, should really make us think!
Why would we even think that our God, who is all wise and all-powerful, would need another person to do all his work? When God wants something done, all he has to do speak the word and it is done;
Ps. 33:9 “For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.”
Let me make another point.
Rev. 3:1 “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; these things says he that has the seven Spirits of God…”
Why haven’t we heart about God’s seven Spirits? Are they all persons? Seven is God’s number of perfection. The seven Spirits of God only emphasize his perfect Holy Spirit. Paul says there is a spirit in man;
1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which
is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
This spirit in us, should we ask who is he? Or should we ask what is it? This spirit is our mind; it is what sets us apart from the animals. This mind enables us to learn how to read and write to calculate, to think, to plan and build, with it we make choices, all the things God does. That is the image of God, he has created us in, but it is not another person. We influence other people by example and by what we teach them. God influences us with his Holy Mind, his Holy Spirit. Paul writes to the Philippians;
Phil. 2:5 “ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.’
This mind that was in Jesus was the mind of God, Gods spirit, his Holy Spirit.
Why would Paul say?
Eph. 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
Eph. 4:6 “ One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all”.
Col. 1:3 “We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
And what else can this next scripture mean except what it says;
1 Cor. 15:28 “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also
himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Some people think, God is to complicate to be understood, that’s because some people have made God to complicated to be understood. God in his word, the bible, has given us everything we need to know about him; if we go beyond that, its like going to the moon, trying to find out how life began.
Anyone that dares to tamper and distort these scriptures should keep in mind what Paul says in,
Gal. 1:9 “As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
Those who are our teachers should take this scripture very serious.
Hi Im4,
Good stuff except that the mind is not the spirit.
We who have a spirit and in whom dwells the Holy Spirit of Christ and God, are to have our minds transformed by renewal.Rom 12
“1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. “
I think your are right Nick that maybe this isnt the correct thread for our discussion.
For the most part I think we agree about the nature of Jesus and about the error of the trinity doctrine.
we differ mainly on “titles” and “descriptions of past duties” of Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2007,14:15) Hi MS,
What past duties among men?
Yes,I will study and more and see if I error concerning some of these past duties. If so I will correct my ways.
Currently, as it stands I believe he was the son who inherited Israel as found in Dueteronomy 32:8.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2007,14:37) Hi MS,
Is it written?
I believe so yes. Unless of course by that you mean a specific statement that says Jesus was directly the divine son who inherited Israel.Maybe he wasn't the divine son who inherited Israel. Maybe he made a public disgrace of him as well on not just the other fallen sons, principalities and powers.
I will look into it more.
hmm,
The debate on trinity theory seems to have fallen into disfavour for lack of scriptural support.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2007,14:55) hmm,
The debate on trinity theory seems to have fallen into disfavour for lack of scriptural support.
agreed!I do believe alot of the trinity errors stem from not understanding:
1. the biblical use of titles (God, Lord, elohim, YHWH…etc)
2. the misunderstanding of the Father's method of governing creation via regents, rulers, archons and mediators (now singular in Christ as the good son who inherited all nations)
Morningstar and Nick I have given you both a big article on Who God is, and you are saying it is not understood? Count me out, I understand perfectly who God is.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Nick
The doctrine of the ?Trinity should fade out of honest discussion since it has no real scriptural basis.
Most important to me i not trying to “scripturally prove” that my understanding is correct because I am more interested in being like Jesus then being intelectually “correct. If a person's so called “intelectual/scriptural” understanding/doctrine does not promote your becomig like Christ, it must be wrong. No matter how much supposed proof they exhibit it must pas the test of functioning toward the goal of making sons like Christ.The doctrine of the trinity does nothing to make me like Christ. Christ as a human being makes him the first of many brethren (us) the perfect example and the first fruit. a man that has suffered even as I have suffered and truly understands my weaknesses. He is the perfect pattern and example because he proves that perfected humanity is possible. what bigger faith builder can there be?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2007,15:50) Hi Martian,
So any doctrine has to be useful to who? MAN?
Doctrine/teaching from God will always work withn God's over all plan. God does not work against himself or deal in head data with no purpose.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 06 2007,15:50) Hi Martian,
So any doctrine has to be useful to who? MAN?
I might also add that if a doctrine/teachng is usefull to God and his plan, then it will ultimately be usefull and benifitcial to man.Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 06 2007,15:16) Morningstar and Nick I have given you both a big article on Who God is, and you are saying it is not understood? Count me out, I understand perfectly who God is. Peace and Love Mrs.
Checks IAM4Truth off list of those who don't know.Just kidding. I only meant why many are confused and believe the doctrine of the Trinity. I didn't mean NOBODY understands, just the majority.
Quote (martian @ Dec. 06 2007,15:41) Nick
The doctrine of the ?Trinity should fade out of honest discussion since it has no real scriptural basis.
Most important to me i not trying to “scripturally prove” that my understanding is correct because I am more interested in being like Jesus then being intelectually “correct. If a person's so called “intelectual/scriptural” understanding/doctrine does not promote your becomig like Christ, it must be wrong. No matter how much supposed proof they exhibit it must pas the test of functioning toward the goal of making sons like Christ.The doctrine of the trinity does nothing to make me like Christ. Christ as a human being makes him the first of many brethren (us) the perfect example and the first fruit. a man that has suffered even as I have suffered and truly understands my weaknesses. He is the perfect pattern and example because he proves that perfected humanity is possible. what bigger faith builder can there be?
I agree, Martian.Salvation is not based on knowledge. Thank God!
It is not like the gnostics call “the gnosis”. It is a gift from God by Grace.
Follow Christ and do not loose what you gained. Amen!
Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 06 2007,00:49) The only thing that I tend to perhaps disagree with is that I believe those acting as “one” with him in unity and spirit gain that title as being a member of his divine family. Ephesians 5:14
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Revelation 3:12
12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
Just as the angels who visited Abraham were working at one with the Father and were called YHWH.
Genesis 19
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Hello MS.Been away for awhile.
But I have noticed I missed quite a bit.
Not enough time to address all of your points but will catch up on some. Starting with the most recent.
You say…
Quote
The only thing that I tend to perhaps disagree with is that I believe those acting as “one” with him in unity and spirit gain that title as being a member of his divine family.Ephesians 5:14
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
First of all I see that you are you using the NIV.
However several translations of the verse disagree with your view that this scripture means God has a family of gods.
Eph 3:15 ESV
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesNASB – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
American Standard Version 1901 InfoYoung – Eph 3:15 – of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 InfoDarby – Eph 3:15 – of whom every family in [the] heavens and on earth is named,
From what I have been reading you are promoting blatant Polytheism.
What do you think of this scripture…
Exod 23:13
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth“.How do you explain this in light of your teaching that there are many gods?
There are more scriptures, but this one will suffice.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 06 2007,17:53) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 06 2007,00:49) The only thing that I tend to perhaps disagree with is that I believe those acting as “one” with him in unity and spirit gain that title as being a member of his divine family. Ephesians 5:14
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Revelation 3:12
12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
Just as the angels who visited Abraham were working at one with the Father and were called YHWH.
Genesis 19
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
Hello MS.Been away for awhile.
But I have noticed I missed quite a bit.
Not enough time to address all of your points but will catch up on some. Starting with the most recent.
You say…
Quote
The only thing that I tend to perhaps disagree with is that I believe those acting as “one” with him in unity and spirit gain that title as being a member of his divine family.Ephesians 5:14
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
First of all I see that you are you using the NIV.
However several translations of the verse disagree with your view that this scripture means God has a family of gods.
Eph 3:15 ESV
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesNASB – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Eph 3:15 – from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
American Standard Version 1901 InfoYoung – Eph 3:15 – of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 InfoDarby – Eph 3:15 – of whom every family in [the] heavens and on earth is named,
From what I have been reading you are promoting blatant Polytheism.
What do you think of this scripture…
Exod 23:13
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth“.How do you explain this in light of your teaching that there are many gods?
There are more scriptures, but this one will suffice.
I would say that there are many bosses and one God because nobody around here understands the Term God is a title.clarification: some realize God is not the Fathers name, but a rather a position of divine authority.
God the Most High
gods (bosses for those who can't grasp this) appointed officers, regents and rulers under the Most High.
You are the polytheist WJ.
You claim 3 co-equal beings in your pantheon.
I claim only ONE TRUE ETERNAL GOD.
I know know you believe 3 are one.
Well what if I believe myriads and myriads and thousands and ten thousands were actually one. Well I think that is what it will be like in the end of things after the judgement.
As the sons of God are finally revealed. Except this means one in nature, one in unity and one in love.
It does not mean one in being.
mulitple persons equal multiple beings multiple beings that are co-equal Gods is polytheism.
I believe the bible teaches monolatrism.
Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is defined as “the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity.”[1] In contrast to monotheism, monolatry accepts the existence of other gods; in contrast to henotheism, it regards only one god as worthy of worship. The term was perhaps first used by Julius Wellhausen.
Monolatry is not the same thing as Henotheism, which is “the belief in and worship of one God without at the same time denying that others can with equal truth worship different gods.”[10] The primary difference between the two is that Monolatry is the worship of one god who alone is worthy of worship, though other gods are known to exist, while Henotheism is the worship of one god, not precluding the existence of others who may also be worthy of praise.
Indeed, the Apostle Paul does acknowledge that other gods exist in the world. In his second letter to the Corinthians he refers to something called “the god of this world”(2 Cor. 4:4), which is probably one and the same as “the mystery of iniquity” of 2 Thesselonians 2:7; and “the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience” in Ephesians 2:2.
Since the Apostle, in his thirteen letters, is the revelator of the Christian message, this would place true Biblical Christianity under the Monolatrism category rather than monotheism, where it is normally categorized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatry
Maximus Tyrius (2nd century A.D.), stated:
“In such a mighty contest, sedition and discord, you will see one according law and assertion in all the earth, that there is one god, the king and father of all things, and many gods, sons of god, ruling together with him.”
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