The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi WJ,
You say
“Do you believe we will become “ALL that God IS”? Because that is what Yeshua is.

Now without going into detail at the moment, quickly,

Yeshua is Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent.”

Such a comment would hardly be necessary if he was God.
But his God is his Father.

December 1, 2007 at 9:59 pm#73658

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,08:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,07:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,07:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,07:21)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,07:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,06:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 01 2007,14:05)

Hi WJ,
You say
“Jesus said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him. The Father never left Yeshua neither did Yeshua exit or cease to be in the Father.”

WAS or IS?

You have been well missed.

Of course “IS” and “WAS”!!!!

You like being contentious dont you?

Hi WJ,
You must be accurate in presenting scripture lest you mislead.
And it shows you truly respect the Word of God and are not just using it.
So did Jesus say WAS in the context you show?

OK.

Jn 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So are you saying Jesus was not the Son of God when John penned that scripture?

Dont get your point.

Jesus Christ the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever!!!

Hi WJ,
Let me help you.
This is what you were quoting.

Jn 14
” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

11″Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. “

You said WAS in suggesting that the SON was not a true SON of GOD but rather ever an aspect of God.

Then you quote a verse that says he is the SON of GOD-something you clearly do not believe.

Do what? Confusion.

Where do you see in my comments I dont believe in the “Son of God”?

Please dont tell me you are gonna start misrepresenting people again? For you know full well I believe Yeshua is the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God!

So you dont believe that Yeshua “Was in the Father” before the foundation of the world?

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God! Jn 1:1

Is John saying he is not still the Word?

Hi WJ,
Your idea of the Son of God is of a son who has never become a son but remains ever an aspect of his father.

Yet that makes him as a son
his own father and
his own son!

How can this fit with Eph 3.14?

Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

What, do you not believe that the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh?

You do believe Yeshua preexisted his natural birth dont you, at which time he became a Son?

BTW is your Son any less human than you are?

December 1, 2007 at 10:01 pm#73659

Participant

Hi W,
The Son of God is the one given by God for us to believe in unto salvation.
Why do you confuse him with God?

December 1, 2007 at 10:01 pm#73660

Participant

1 John 3:2
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

If John isn't “exactly” sure, then I can't claim to be myself.

Is Jesus all those things “exactly”? YHWH didnt always Know everything in the Old Testament. YHWH changed his mind on occasion throughout the Old Testament. Jesus didn't know the day and hour of his return.

Is the Father the only eternal God who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent?

In a nut shell. I don't know the exact details.

December 1, 2007 at 10:05 pm#73661

Participant

Hi WJ,
We can follow Jesus because he is a man like us.

He was anointed by God just as we can be.

God can live in us just as He lived in Christ.

God can work through all his children.

That makes none of them God.

Acts 10.38.

December 1, 2007 at 10:26 pm#73664

Participant

[quote=Morningstar,Dec. 02 2007,09:01][/quote]
Morning

You said…

Quote

1 John 3:2
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

If John isn't “exactly” sure, then I can't claim to be myself.

John says we shall be in his likeness!

Yeshua is the very essence of all that the Father is.

Yeshua dwells in all. Yeshua is the creator of all. By him all things consist. Yeshua is “The image of God”. Without him was not any thing made that was made.

By the Word of Yeshua all things are upheld!

You said…

Quote

Did any of your other gods come in the flesh.

Yeshua took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. He is the LORD from heaven. The princes of this world didnt know him.

The world was made by him and knew him not. Do you think Yeshua could be the creator of all things and not know all things. So obviously that has something to do with his manhood.

There will never be another “Monogenes” Unique” Son of God.

You said…

Quote

Is the Father the only eternal God who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent? In a nut shell. I don't know the exact details.

Dont you think the Father would have told us there was another.

In fact he did…

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and there is none else.

Yet we know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit took part in the creation of all things.

We shall not be “Gods”.

December 1, 2007 at 10:28 pm#73666

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,09:01)

Hi W,
The Son of God is the one given by God for us to believe in unto salvation.
Why do you confuse him with God?

Because God is our only Saviour and none other.

Dont you believe this?

December 1, 2007 at 10:33 pm#73667

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,09:05)

Hi WJ,
We can follow Jesus because he is a man like us.

He was anointed by God just as we can be.

God can live in us just as He lived in Christ.

God can work through all his children.

That makes none of them God.

Acts 10.38.

Is he just a man like us?

Will you ever dwell in millions of believers, guiding then watching over them as a Good shephard, speaking to them, world wide all at the same time?

Can a man like you and I be in the midst of 2 or 3 when they gather in his name, all at the same time?

Will we ever have all power in heaven and earth?

Could we ever uphold all things by the Word of our power?

Could it ever be that by us all things consist.

Can you follow him in these things?

December 1, 2007 at 10:46 pm#73670

IM4Truth

Participant

W.J. I do not think that anybody really knows right now, how it will be like when God is all in all. What exactly did Paul mean by that? We just have to wait until then,rather then arguing about that fact. Even tho some mysteries have been given to us, but will all be revealed? I do not think so. For some we have to take in Faith. My Faith in Jesus Christ will see me through, how about you?

Peace and Love Mrs.

December 1, 2007 at 11:00 pm#73671

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 02 2007,09:46)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs

When I see you avatar I think you are kenrch.

But I do like the “Three” smiley faces.

1 For the Father, 1 for the Son, 1 for the Holy Spirit!!!

December 1, 2007 at 11:18 pm#73673

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,09:26)

[quote=Morningstar,Dec. 02 2007,09:01][/quote]
Morning

You said…

Quote

1 John 3:2
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

If John isn't “exactly” sure, then I can't claim to be myself.

John says we shall be in his likeness!

Yeshua is the very essence of all that the Father is.

Yeshua dwells in all. Yeshua is the creator of all. By him all things consist. Yeshua is “The image of God”. Without him was not any thing made that was made.

By the Word of Yeshua all things are upheld!

You said…

Quote

Did any of your other gods come in the flesh.

Yeshua took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. He is the LORD from heaven. The princes of this world didnt know him.

The world was made by him and knew him not. Do you think Yeshua could be the creator of all things and not know all things. So obviously that has something to do with his manhood.

There will never be another “Monogenes” Unique” Son of God.

You said…

Quote

Is the Father the only eternal God who is Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent? In a nut shell. I don't know the exact details.

Dont you think the Father would have told us there was another.

In fact he did…

Yet we know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit took part in the creation of all things.

We shall not be “Gods”.

Is that all John is saying is just in his “likeness?” So we will look like Jesus physically? Seriously!

The Father was well pleased to fully dwell within his son. Is Jesus himself all the Father is? Or is the Father filling Him to that capacity?

I agree Jesus was the demiurge! The instrument of creation.

Actually other Gods (sons of God) did come in the flesh. (Gen. 6:4, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude vs. 6) But they are not “unique” like Jesus. Jesus is the Most High of the elohim, the other sons his companions. The Father is Most High over all.

Yes I think it is possible that the Father worked through his unique son to create the world and the Son is not necessarily omnipotent like his Father.

Agreed, Jesus is forever the “unique” son of God. But we will be sons of God who are not unique as that word means referring to Jesus. Jesus is the Firstborn and the demiurge.

Isa 45:18 is talking about YHWH the son. He is the lone elohim (son of El) who is creator. The other sons of God did not have anything to do with creation.

The bible disagrees and declares with will be gods, it directly says:

1) We will be elohim. (plural as gods)

2) We will have the morning star rise in us as Christ will give it to us.

3) We will rule and reign with him in a higher, judging position even over the angels.

4) We are to be transformed with the same Glory, Power and Authority the Father gave to Christ.

December 1, 2007 at 11:21 pm#73675

Participant

I repost this because as I stated before nobody ever really addresses my position. They just say “Nuh uh”, and then post, out of context, a couple verses they think holds a counter position.

Believers become Sons of God at salvation

Galatians 3:26
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

1 John 3:2
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

When Christ Returns we will be like him Sons of God becoming Morning Stars / Angelic beings

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15:52

52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Romans 8:19
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

2 Peter 1:19

19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts

Revelation 2:26-28

26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star.

Matthew 22:30

30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

We will rule and reign with Christ as Elohim over the nations as in the beginning when the nations where watched over by Elohim.

1 Corinthians 6:3

3Do you not know that we will judge angels? (The principalities and powers of this present darkness that are dethroned and we usurp their power)

2 Timothy 4:7

7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Revelation 20:6

6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Zechariah 12:8

On that day the LORD (YHWH) will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God (Elohim plural gods), like the Angel of the LORD going before them.

John 17

21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me

THIS IS NOT NEW AGE STUFF THIS IS BASIC BIBLE!!!! Taught from the beginning!!!!

Some early Christian comments on the saints becoming Elohim.

Clement who said:

But it reaches its climax after the death of the body, when the soul is allowed to fly back to its original place, where after becoming a god, it can enjoy, in a complete and perpetual rest, the contemplation of the highest divinity 'face to face', together with the other [theoi] (S. R. C. Lilla Clement of Alexandria A Study In Christian Platonism and Gnosticism, Oxford, 1971, p. 142).

Irenaeus who said:
There is none other called God by the scriptures except the Father of all and the Son, and those who possess the adoption (Early Arianism – A View of Salvation, Fortress Press, Philadelphia, 1981, p. 68).

Irenaeus (c. 125-203) wrote on the question of the extension of the term elohim (or theoi in the Greek) to mankind. Irenaeus is important because he was taught by Polycarp, the disciple of John. Thus, we can be fairly certain that Irenaeus’ understanding (short of forgery) approximated that of the early Church. In his work Against Heresies he expounded the concept that the elect would exist as elohim.

Also, check out these passages I have looked over:

Notice how it is hidden in translations what we are to become?

John 3 (most translations)

3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

See here this same verse when interpreted literally.

John 3 Young’s Literal Translation

3Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

Yes, being begotten from the Father!!!!

Hebrews 2:11 states that He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all one origin

Hebrews 2:11

11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.

1 John 3:2

2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

December 1, 2007 at 11:31 pm#73677

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,09:28)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,09:01)

Hi W,
The Son of God is the one given by God for us to believe in unto salvation.
Why do you confuse him with God?

Because God is our only Saviour and none other.

Dont you believe this?

This incorporates both the Father and Son.

However, specifically it is YHWH saying this.

As you know I believe YHWH is Jesus.

Thats why every Knee bows to him to the glory of the Father.

Jesus, Truly is LORD.

The Father, Truly is El Elyon.

December 2, 2007 at 12:33 am#73683

Proclaimer

Participant

If you understand that “theos” and “elohim” can be used to identify and quantify and that YHWH sends visible representatives, then the confusion goes away.

Theos and Elohim are like the words man and devil in the way you can use them.

Adam is identified as the first man. But adam is the name of all men. The Devil is identified as the enemy or adversary, but there are many devils and even a man can be called a devil.

When people can understand that “theos” and “elohim” can be used to identify the Most High God and can also be used in reference to those who represent God or are sons, then the confusion is gone.

What do you do when you see the word God? Do you think Most High God? No, you should look at the context to determine if this is so. It could be used of someone who is like God or even a false god. The definite articles (the) and adjectives can be helpful in determining the usage. The definite article (in Greek) often identifies. Lack of an article usually means that the word is used to describe a quality.

December 2, 2007 at 12:34 am#73684

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,10:00)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 02 2007,09:46)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs

When I see you avatar I think you are kenrch.

But I do like the “Three” smiley faces.

1 For the Father, 1 for the Son, 1 for the Holy Spirit!!!

I count 3 dots though.

So each one is a dot, and yet they are not one dot are they. They are all a dot in nature, but there are 3 separate dots.

Sounds like you are espousing dotytheism.

December 2, 2007 at 1:01 am#73687

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 02 2007,11:33)

If you understand that “theos” and “elohim” can be used to identify and quantify and that YHWH sends visible representatives, then the confusion goes away.

Theos and Elohim are like the words man and devil in the way you can use them.

Adam is identified as the first man. But adam is the name of all men. The Devil is identified as the enemy or adversary, but there are many devils and even a man can be called a devil.

Oh so you mean that if it does not have a definate article it cant be refering to the Father?

Or if it does it is only refering to the Father?

How about this one…

2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ho Theos. Quality or identity?

You said…

Quote

The definite article (in Greek) often identifies. Lack of an article usually means that the word is used to describe a quality.

Obviously this rule does not always apply!

Often, Usually? So how does the confusion go away if it is not unambiguous?

So then, it is left up for you and I to decide, is that right?

December 2, 2007 at 1:11 am#73688

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 02 2007,11:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,10:00)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 02 2007,09:46)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs

When I see you avatar I think you are kenrch.

But I do like the “Three” smiley faces.

1 For the Father, 1 for the Son, 1 for the Holy Spirit!!!

I count 3 dots though.

So each one is a dot, and yet they are not one dot are they. They are all a dot in nature, but there are 3 separate dots.

Sounds like you are espousing dotytheism.

December 2, 2007 at 1:15 am#73689

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,12:11)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 02 2007,11:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,10:00)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 02 2007,09:46)

Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs

When I see you avatar I think you are kenrch.

But I do like the “Three” smiley faces.

1 For the Father, 1 for the Son, 1 for the Holy Spirit!!!

I count 3 dots though.

So each one is a dot, and yet they are not one dot are they. They are all a dot in nature, but there are 3 separate dots.

Sounds like you are espousing dotytheism.

Yep!

When I clicked on that “One Dot” three times it came up with three dots!

December 2, 2007 at 1:23 am#73690

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2007,09:28)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2007,09:01)

Hi W,
The Son of God is the one given by God for us to believe in unto salvation.
Why do you confuse him with God?

Because God is our only Saviour and none other.

Dont you believe this?

Hi WJ,
God sent Jesus to save us.
God saves through Jesus.
God is not Jesus.

December 2, 2007 at 3:57 am#73695