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Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,21:39) Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. Nothing here about calling on the Moshiach.
To be fair Towshab, how can you call on God's messiah if the messiah hadn't been sent.If God sent a messiah, then you would assume that God sent him as a representative of himself and that God trusts him.
The role of the messiah is to save men and that is the same as bring men back to God in a state that God can fellowship directly with them. So it seems to me that men today have the privilege of fellowshipping with God without going through a prophet, better still, God's Spirit can live in a man today, without the need for a sacrifice and a priest. Because the ultimate sacrifice has been made. The lamb of God had been slain.
Also you say that Christianity puts a man between God and man. Well did not God send a saviour to the Jewish people, namely Moses? Surely Moses was a man?
this comment is to anyone who does not believe in the trinity. obviously there is strong scripture to back up your beliefs(or you would not believe the way you do). but i do have some questions that i think will be new to you, but perhaps not.
first i would like to bring up Isa. 48:12-16.
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
i believe this to be a strong statement in backing of the trinity doctrine. i do realize this allows for the argument that Jesus was simply “begotten” before the creation of the universe. so lets move on. (p.s. try Isa 63:7-14, another good one).
i am in a rush so i will try to wrap this up and come back later.
but i want to leave you with a couple of thoughts. i understand the oneness teachings to say that Jesus is the son of God, but not Yahweh himself.
with that in mind i will quote a couple of scriptures.
Genesis 19:24:“Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.”
the first “Lord” in this verse is YHWH in the Hebrew, as is the second “Lord”. So we have one YHWH raining fire from a second YHWH. It clearly refers to 2 personalities as YHWH.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
“For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”
The first “Lord of hosts” is YHWH in the Hebrew, as well as the second “Lord of hosts” being YHWH in the Hebrew. So we have one YHWH sending a second YHWH.
one more real quick.Hosea 1:7:
“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHWH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Looking forward to some responses. God Bless.
Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 09 2007,11:46) this comment is to anyone who does not believe in the trinity. obviously there is strong scripture to back up your beliefs(or you would not believe the way you do). but i do have some questions that i think will be new to you, but perhaps not.
first i would like to bring up Isa. 48:12-16.
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
i believe this to be a strong statement in backing of the trinity doctrine. i do realize this allows for the argument that Jesus was simply “begotten” before the creation of the universe. so lets move on. (p.s. try Isa 63:7-14, another good one).
i am in a rush so i will try to wrap this up and come back later.
but i want to leave you with a couple of thoughts. i understand the oneness teachings to say that Jesus is the son of God, but not Yahweh himself.
with that in mind i will quote a couple of scriptures.
Genesis 19:24:“Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.”
the first “Lord” in this verse is YHWH in the Hebrew, as is the second “Lord”. So we have one YHWH raining fire from a second YHWH. It clearly refers to 2 personalities as YHWH.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
“For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”
The first “Lord of hosts” is YHWH in the Hebrew, as well as the second “Lord of hosts” being YHWH in the Hebrew. So we have one YHWH sending a second YHWH.
one more real quick.Hosea 1:7:
“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHWH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Looking forward to some responses. God Bless.
The God of the BibleThere is one omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God and Father. Always has been and always will be. There was never a time before him and there will never be a time after him. No other self-existing eternal God has ever existed nor will ever exist. He is alone in all authority and power. There was a point in prehistory where only God existed and nothing else was. He does not have a name since nobody was ever around to give him one when he was alone. The bible uses many “titles” but no actual official name exists (that I know of). His most prominent title that he revealed to man is the name YHWH. (I AM WHAT I WILL BECOME) It is with this name he made himself know to the patriarchs.
Jesus
There is only one firstborn only begotten Son of God. This Son was actually begotten from the Father; being generated from the very nature and substance of the Father. This begetting I discuss is not through Mary that was the incarnation; this begetting was in the beginning before all things. Jesus is not the Father (God) but is the exact image and representation of the Father’s glory in visual and auditory form. It is through this firstborn Son, this very god of God, light of Light, that all things came into being and are sustained. All things were created by the Father through the Son. The Son was not created but was begotten. The closest thing to being begotten that our minds understand is the process of human birth. Jesus is the highest ranking son of God and shares the name YHWH with his Father. Jesus is very different from the angels in origin, substance, and purpose; yet none the less he is a son of God. Jesus is an angel to the extent that he was a messenger for God: in fact he was the Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament. Angel is simply a title meaning messenger, it is not the name of an actual race of beings; this race of spiritual sons is simply called the Elohim. Jesus, however, is not “just” an angel for he is so much superior, being the unique “monogenes” only begotten Son who alone is in the image of the invisible God. Jesus was the god that was seen and heard from by the patriarchs, the one who Moses saw in the cleft of the rock and heard the words spoken “I Am” from the burning bush and Jesus is the one who wrestled with Jacob.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God the Father; the essence, power and active force throughout creation that emanates from him and through Christ and into all believers. The Holy Spirit is not a person or being, but it is personal since it is actually the spirit of the Father.
Angels
The angels are the other sons of God and the companions (or fellows in the KJV) of Jesus. Through Jesus all other sons of God were created; Jesus being the only thing not created but rather begotten of the Father and therefore the only being sharing in the Father’s substance of divinity. The angels are the principalities and powers; divine messengers and servants. Within the order of angels consists a hierarchy, a structure of positions, each with their own responsibilities and duties. It is true that at no time has God ever said to another of his sons, the angels, “You are my son Today I have begotten you.”, because Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. All other divine sons were created through Jesus. The firstborn Son stands alone and unique as the begotten brought forth in the exact image and glory of his Father. Jesus has been anointed far above his companions as the name he inherited is far greater than theirs.
The Great Council
In the beginning when God divided up the nations he appointed over each nation a divine son to be a watcher and a guardian. Each son was to be a regent (one who rules in another’s place and with their authority) who would guide the people and represent the Father who is invisible and cannot be seen or heard by man. These beings were very much seen and heard by men as all ancient religions declare their direct dealings with their “gods”.
Jesus received the nation of Israel as his inheritance. With Israel the Father had the plan of redemption so his unique only begotten son was given the important task of watching over it. For Jesus is the one who created man and will be the one who saves man.
These sons are called “gods”. It is just a title that means “mighty one” and does not mean God in even remotely the same sense as that title applies to the Father. Our English language causes many problems when it comes to the titles and names of God and his sons in the Old Test
ament. We have turned the title of God into an official name of the Father and thus stripped that title of its original meaning. It is the difference between “mighty one” and “Almighty”; for God is the Most High obviously demonstrating that there are other Elohim that he is higher than.The other sons of God who watched over the other nations failed miserably and did not govern properly letting man fall into absolute debauchery and rather than ruling under the Father’s will they prided themselves to govern how they saw fit. The only son given a nation who loved righteousness and was faithful was Jesus, the Son who watched over Israel. God gave all authority to the one good Son, the one good Shepherd who inherited all nations. The other sons include Satan who is the “god” of this current world and the other fallen principalities and powers. I believe originally Satan was the guardian set over Eden and he set the example for the other fallen sons to follow.
In the Old Testament we see many references to these powers. Some examples include the King of Tyre and the Prince of Tyre. Every nation had a human king and above him an angelic King. This is why sometimes these verses appear to be talking about a man and at other times an angel. Well, it is because two beings are being spoken about. In the case of Tyre God was sending a message through Ezekiel to both the bad human king and the bad angelic King. Another, example is when David said, “My Lord said to my Lord.” Sometimes a lot of the prophecies and messianic verses in the Old Testament about Christ appear to be talking about David as well; it is because two beings are being spoken about. Jesus was the Elohim (god) over David and above both of them was the Most High (God). Remember, the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece mentioned in Daniel? Every nation had a divine son or “Lord” over it and above the divine son is the Father.
God (Father) > Lord (divine son) > human King
Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 09 2007,11:46) this comment is to anyone who does not believe in the trinity. obviously there is strong scripture to back up your beliefs(or you would not believe the way you do). but i do have some questions that i think will be new to you, but perhaps not.
first i would like to bring up Isa. 48:12-16.
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
i believe this to be a strong statement in backing of the trinity doctrine. i do realize this allows for the argument that Jesus was simply “begotten” before the creation of the universe. so lets move on. (p.s. try Isa 63:7-14, another good one).
i am in a rush so i will try to wrap this up and come back later.
but i want to leave you with a couple of thoughts. i understand the oneness teachings to say that Jesus is the son of God, but not Yahweh himself.
with that in mind i will quote a couple of scriptures.
Genesis 19:24:“Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.”
the first “Lord” in this verse is YHWH in the Hebrew, as is the second “Lord”. So we have one YHWH raining fire from a second YHWH. It clearly refers to 2 personalities as YHWH.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
“For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”
The first “Lord of hosts” is YHWH in the Hebrew, as well as the second “Lord of hosts” being YHWH in the Hebrew. So we have one YHWH sending a second YHWH.
one more real quick.Hosea 1:7:
“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHWH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Looking forward to some responses. God Bless.
Genesis 48:15
15And he blessed Joseph and said,“The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
16the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”What? Jacob's God who has been his shepherd, THE ANGEL.
And this Verse:
Hebrews 1:9
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”God has a God? Wow!!!! God has companions? Wow, you mean the other Sons of Gods over the nations who fell and became powers and principalities.
John 16
1″All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.
Wow people don't really understand who the God of Israel is and how he operates?!!
Isaiah 9:6 LXX
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel [Angel of great counsel]: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.What the messiah is the Angel of Great counsel!!!!?
Could the God of Israel be the Angel of Great counsel and the Messiah???!!!
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s [YHVH] portion is his people,Wow could the God of Israel be the Son of God who inherited Israel from the Father the Most High???
But I thought YHVH was the Father's name??
Genesis 19:24
24Then the LORD (YHVH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven. (Read the verses preceding this verse and you see it is the angel talking to Lot who is to be doing the destroying and he promises not to also destroy a near by village called Zoar where Lot wanted to flee to. Jesus was that angel.)Exodus 23:20
20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.Jesus agrees in the Garden Prayer.
John 17:10-12
10 All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory. 11 Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are. 12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.Philippians 2:9-11
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.OHHH they share that name as ONE!!!!!
Deuteronomy 6:4
4″Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2007,14:39) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,21:39) What Christianity does is put a 'middle man' between mankind and G-d. You don't find that in the Tanakh.
I don't agree Towshab.God spoke to people through the prophets and now he speaks to us through his son.
God always speaks through someone.
It's not like God just comes up to people and says “Hi, I am God”.
Even the law was mediated by angels.
Yes but Jesus puts himself between me and G-d when I want to talk to Him. That didn't happen till Jesus came on the scene. That is but yet another reason I reject him.Although I agree that the teaching on the Trinity is inaccurate, the Trinity is not a myth though
In order for people of that time and even now, to be able to comprehend who and what God is, He described Jesus as his son, but Jesus is actually God himself in a physical form.
Jesus was that portion or part of God that came to earth as the form of a man
God is God,Jesus and Holy Spirit, but the concept is very difficult for us to comprehend, so God explained it in a way that we could understand bettter and accept.
He described that part of himself that came to earth as the son, and because that part of himself was in a physical form, it had temporarily divested himself of his glory and power, so while in physical form that part of God was in a sense not equal with the other two parts of God.
The idea of a being being 3 in one and yet able to seperate a part of themselves and change that part into a different form while still being a part of the whole, is very difficult for us to understand, but the way it is explained as father and son is a lot easier for us.
However jesus is not God's son, Jesus is God in the form of flesh.
Still, there needs to be further prayer and meditation to hear from the Holy Spirit as a great deal of the teachings in churches come from the distorted ideas and idiology of the Catholic church, which is not a true church, but an instrument of the devil.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 09 2007,12:15) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 09 2007,11:46) this comment is to anyone who does not believe in the trinity. obviously there is strong scripture to back up your beliefs(or you would not believe the way you do). but i do have some questions that i think will be new to you, but perhaps not.
first i would like to bring up Isa. 48:12-16.
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
i believe this to be a strong statement in backing of the trinity doctrine. i do realize this allows for the argument that Jesus was simply “begotten” before the creation of the universe. so lets move on. (p.s. try Isa 63:7-14, another good one).
i am in a rush so i will try to wrap this up and come back later.
but i want to leave you with a couple of thoughts. i understand the oneness teachings to say that Jesus is the son of God, but not Yahweh himself.
with that in mind i will quote a couple of scriptures.
Genesis 19:24:“Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.”
the first “Lord” in this verse is YHWH in the Hebrew, as is the second “Lord”. So we have one YHWH raining fire from a second YHWH. It clearly refers to 2 personalities as YHWH.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
“For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”
The first “Lord of hosts” is YHWH in the Hebrew, as well as the second “Lord of hosts” being YHWH in the Hebrew. So we have one YHWH sending a second YHWH.
one more real quick.Hosea 1:7:
“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHWH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Looking forward to some responses. God Bless.
Genesis 48:15
15And he blessed Joseph and said,“The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
16the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”What? Jacob's God who has been his shepherd, THE ANGEL.
And this Verse:
Hebrews 1:9
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”God has a God? Wow!!!! God has companions? Wow, you mean the other Sons of Gods over the nations who fell and became powers and principalities.
John 16
1″All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.
Wow people don't really understand who the God of Israel is and how he operates?!!
Isaiah 9:6 LXX
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel [Angel of great counsel]: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.What the messiah is the Angel of Great counsel!!!!?
Could the God of Israel be the Angel of Great counsel and the Messiah???!!!
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s [YHVH] portion is his people,Wow could the God of Israel be the Son of God who inherited Israel from the Father the Most High???
But I thought YHVH was the Father's name??
Genesis 19:24
24Then the LORD (YHVH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven. (Read the verses preceding this verse and you see it is the angel talking to Lot who is to be doing the destroying and he promises not to also destroy a near by village called Zoar where Lot wanted to flee to. Jesus was that angel.)Exodus 23:20
20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.Jesus agrees in the Garden Prayer.
John 17:10-12
10 All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory. 11 Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are. 12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.Philippians 2:9-11
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.OHHH they share that name as ONE!!!!!
Deuteronomy 6:4
4″Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
enjoyed your response. some great scripture. not quite sure of the point you are trying to make though. could you clarify. thanks.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2007,14:39) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,21:39) What Christianity does is put a 'middle man' between mankind and G-d. You don't find that in the Tanakh.
I don't agree Towshab.God spoke to people through the prophets and now he speaks to us through his son.
God always speaks through someone.
It's not like God just comes up to people and says “Hi, I am God”.
Even the law was mediated by angels.
Yes but Jesus puts himself between me and G-d when I want to talk to Him. That didn't happen till Jesus came on the scene. That is but yet another reason I reject him.
What if Jesus is the God of Israel?What if the God of Israel had a God?
What if they worked in unison as ONE?
Jacob thought his elohim was the one he wrestled with.
The one he wrestled with represented the Most High above him.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2007,14:52) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,21:39) Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. Nothing here about calling on the Moshiach.
To be fair Towshab, how can you call on God's messiah if the messiah hadn't been sent.[/quote]Then why would He (G-d) all of a sudden change His salvation plan? I could call on Him and be saved if I lived prior to Jesus but now I must call on Jesus instead? Did G-d go into retirement?
[quote]If God sent a messiah, then you would assume that God sent him as a representative of himself and that God trusts him.
The role of the messiah is to save men and that is the same as bring men back to God in a state that God can fellowship directly with them. So it seems to me that men today have the privilege of fellowshipping with God without going through a prophet, better still, God's Spirit can live in a man today, without the need for a sacrifice and a priest. Because the ultimate sacrifice has been made. The lamb of God had been slain.
Also you say that Christianity puts a man between God and man. Well did not God send a saviour to the Jewish people, namely Moses? Surely Moses was a man?
Moses was not a spiritual savior as Jesus is made out to be. He was sent as a human deliver of G-d's people. Jesus lessens the power of G-d because it lays spiritual salvation on a man. That was never so and still is not. G-d is the only savior.I repeat, this board does some weird stuff. You must preview everything twice of you quote other people….
Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 09 2007,12:21) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 09 2007,12:15) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 09 2007,11:46) this comment is to anyone who does not believe in the trinity. obviously there is strong scripture to back up your beliefs(or you would not believe the way you do). but i do have some questions that i think will be new to you, but perhaps not.
first i would like to bring up Isa. 48:12-16.
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
i believe this to be a strong statement in backing of the trinity doctrine. i do realize this allows for the argument that Jesus was simply “begotten” before the creation of the universe. so lets move on. (p.s. try Isa 63:7-14, another good one).
i am in a rush so i will try to wrap this up and come back later.
but i want to leave you with a couple of thoughts. i understand the oneness teachings to say that Jesus is the son of God, but not Yahweh himself.
with that in mind i will quote a couple of scriptures.
Genesis 19:24:“Then he LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens.”
the first “Lord” in this verse is YHWH in the Hebrew, as is the second “Lord”. So we have one YHWH raining fire from a second YHWH. It clearly refers to 2 personalities as YHWH.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
“For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”
The first “Lord of hosts” is YHWH in the Hebrew, as well as the second “Lord of hosts” being YHWH in the Hebrew. So we have one YHWH sending a second YHWH.
one more real quick.Hosea 1:7:
“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”
The speaker is Elohim who says he will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHWH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Looking forward to some responses. God Bless.
Genesis 48:15
15And he blessed Joseph and said,“The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
16the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”What? Jacob's God who has been his shepherd, THE ANGEL.
And this Verse:
Hebrews 1:9
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”God has a God? Wow!!!! God has companions? Wow, you mean the other Sons of Gods over the nations who fell and became powers and principalities.
John 16
1″All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.
Wow people don't really understand who the God of Israel is and how he operates?!!
Isaiah 9:6 LXX
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel [Angel of great counsel]: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.What the messiah is the Angel of Great counsel!!!!?
Could the God of Israel be the Angel of Great counsel and the Messiah???!!!
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s [YHVH] portion is his people,Wow could the God of Israel be the Son of God who inherited Israel from the Father the Most High???
But I thought YHVH was the Father's name??
Genesis 19:24
24Then the LORD (YHVH) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven. (Read the verses preceding this verse and you see it is the angel talking to Lot who is to be doing the destroying and he promises not to also destroy a near by village called Zoar where Lot wanted to flee to. Jesus was that angel.)Exodus 23:20
20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.Jesus agrees in the Garden Prayer.
John 17:10-12
10 All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory. 11 Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are. 12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.Philippians 2:9-11
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.OHHH they share that name as ONE!!!!!
Deuteronomy 6:4
4″Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
enjoyed your response. some great scripture. not quite
sure of the point you are trying to make though. could you clarify. thanks.
the post i made right before the one you just read clarifies my position.It reads like a statement of beliefs sort of. I am not dogmatic though. It is not in stone so to speak.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 08 2007,19:22) What if Jesus is the God of Israel?[/quote] He is not. G-d is not a man nor the son of man (Num 23:19). Jesus was a man (Acts 2:22, Rom 5:15) and often called himself 'son of man'.
Quote What if the God of Israel had a God? He did not. But good luck trying to prove it.
Quote What if they worked in unison as ONE? What if pigs flew and jello could be nailed to a wall?
[quote]Jacob thought his elohim was the one he wrestled with.
The one he wrestled with represented the Most High above him.
An angel (Hos 12:4)Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,12:30) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 08 2007,19:22) What if Jesus is the God of Israel? He is not. G-d is not a man nor the son of man (Num 23:19). Jesus was a man (Acts 2:22, Rom 5:15) and often called himself 'son of man'.
Quote What if the God of Israel had a God? He did not. But good luck trying to prove it.
Quote What if they worked in unison as ONE? What if pigs flew and jello could be nailed to a wall?
Quote Jacob thought his elohim was the one he wrestled with. The one he wrestled with represented the Most High above him.
An angel (Hos 12:4)
I can't proove it to you. Just as I can't proove to an athiest that God exists.I can show you the scriptures in the bible that support my position.
I can show you Jesus offer to drink from the water of life.
It is up to you and your seeking God to hear the voice of the shepherd.
Morningstar, read the post, very strong points. i have a couple of questions, you say that early Christians had a different meaning for the term trinity and suggest to look it up, what are you basing that on and where can i look it up, i have read the church fathers and have not found what you are referring to. also do you not believe that YHWH is the name of the Most high (father).
First of all I reccomend the book called “The Dictionary of early christian beliefs” it summarizes key quotes from the early church fathers rather concisely. It also does this chronologically so you can see the flow, progression and changes in thought as time went on and as more platonic influence crept into the church. At about the time of Tertullian things started to shift radically in the interpretation of the trinity.
Also, if you are familiar with the early church fathers you will note that they didnt believe the Most High had an official name either. Rather titles used as names. Is the Fathers real name “I Am what I will become”? But to be clear yes the Father is YHWH as is Jesus.
This kinda of explains my point hope it makes sense. The early Christians often refer to the Economy. Then rather early on they started to generate the concept of the holy spirit being a seperate person as well. Read the very earliest chruch father writings and they did not hold that view of the spirit. Justin Martyr is a good start.
My view and the early Christian view.
We believe in a trinity BUT NOT the Trinity doctrine of today. The early Christians even used the word trinity BUT NOT what it means today.
The Difference between the terminology of the titles God and Godhead.
God when discussing the Father = Most High only eternal TRUE God. The Source and Power of all things.
God when discussing Jesus = the divine begotten son who shares the very same nature as the Father, but is not the eternal TRUE God but is his firstborn. Jesus was the instrument of Creation the Father used. Jesus is God by nature being of the same substance of divinity but he is not a multiple personality of a triune God. He is the Son of God who revealed his Father to men both in the Old and New Testaments.
Godhead = the administration of the office we call God. Not discussing a person but a hierarchy of administration. God communes with man through his Son as a conduit for his Holy Spirit. This is what the early Christians talked about when they used the term Trinity. (look it up) This is how the Godhead works as a trinity. But God IS NOT a trinity.
God is a title Shared by the Most High and his firstborn and only begotten Son. Two beings of the same nature, like Father like Son. One unbegotten and eternal (the Father) one begotten in the exact image of the unbegotten (the son).
Godhead is a title of the office of God. No longer a divine council as describe in the Old Testament. The Most High only operates through one Son the other principalities and powers fell. The Father works through his Son to share his Spirit. The Trinity is a term of administration describing the Godhead not a definition of the nature of God as a being.
The Father only operates through his one Good Son who loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Through Jesus he can unite with us so we can also share in his nature like his son so that we can become children of God. We must be born from above (born again is what most bibles say) YES! Like Christ himself born of the Father so that we can be LIKE HIM join-heirs with Christ.
wait do you already read this?
did you read this too?
The God of the Bible
There is one omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God and Father. Always has been and always will be. There was never a time before him and there will never be a time after him. No other self-existing eternal God has ever existed nor will ever exist. He is alone in all authority and power. There was a point in prehistory where only God existed and nothing else was. He does not have a name since nobody was ever around to give him one when he was alone. The bible uses many “titles” but no actual official name exists (that I know of). His most prominent title that he revealed to man is the name YHWH. (I AM WHAT I WILL BECOME) It is with this name he made himself know to the patriarchs.
Jesus
There is only one firstborn only begotten Son of God. This Son was actually begotten from the Father; being generated from the very nature and substance of the Father. This begetting I discuss is not through Mary that was the incarnation; this begetting was in the beginning before all things. Jesus is not the Father (God) but is the exact image and representation of the Father’s glory in visual and auditory form. It is through this firstborn Son, this very god of God, light of Light, that all things came into being and are sustained. All things were created by the Father through the Son. The Son was not created but was begotten. The closest thing to being begotten that our minds understand is the process of human birth. Jesus is the highest ranking son of God and shares the name YHWH with his Father. Jesus is very different from the angels in origin, substance, and purpose; yet none the less he is a son of God. Jesus is an angel to the extent that he was a messenger for God: in fact he was the Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament. Angel is simply a title meaning messenger, it is not the name of an actual race of beings; this race of spiritual sons is simply called the Elohim. Jesus, however, is not “just” an angel for he is so much superior, being the unique “monogenes” only begotten Son who alone is in the image of the invisible God. Jesus was the god that was seen and heard from by the patriarchs, the one who Moses saw in the cleft of the rock and heard the words spoken “I Am” from the burning bush and Jesus is the one who wrestled with Jacob.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God the Father; the essence, power and active force throughout creation that emanates from him and through Christ and into all believers. The Holy Spirit is not a person or being, but it is personal since it is actually the spirit of the Father.
Angels
The angels are the other sons of God and the companions (or fellows in the KJV) of Jesus. Through Jesus all other sons of God were created; Jesus being the only thing not created but rather begotten of the Father and therefore the only being sharing in the Father’s substance of divinity. The angels are the principalities and powers; divine messengers and servants. Within the order of angels consists a hierarchy, a structure of positions, each with their own responsibilities and duties. It is true that at no time has God ever said to another of his sons, the angels, “You are my son Today I have begotten you.”, because Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. All other divine sons were created through Jesus. The firstborn Son stands alone and unique as the begotten brought forth in the exact image and glory of his Father. Jesus has been anointed far above his companions as the name he inherited is far greater than theirs.
The Great Council
In the beginning when God divided up the nations he appointed over each nation a divine son to be a watcher and a guardian. Each son was to be a regent (one who rules in another’s place and with their authority) who would guide the people and represent the Father who is invisible and cannot be seen or heard by man. These beings were very much seen and heard by men as all ancient religions declare their direct dealings with their “gods”.
Jesus received the nation of Israel as his inheritance. With Israel the Father had the plan of redemption so his unique only begotten son was given the important task of watching over it. For Jesus is the one who created man and will be the one who saves man.
These sons are called “gods”. It is just a title that means “mighty one” and does not mean God in even remotely the same sense as that title applies to the Father. Our English language causes many problems when it comes to the titles and names of God and his sons in the Old Testament. We have turned the title of God into an official name of the Father and thus stripped that title of its original meaning. It is the difference between “mighty one” and “Almighty”; for God is the Most High obviously demonstrating that there are other Elohim that he is higher than.
The other sons of God who watched over the other nations failed miserably and did not govern properly letting man fall into absolute debauchery and rather than ruling under the Father’s will they prided themselves to govern how they saw fit. The only son given a nation who loved righteousness and was faithful was Jesus, the Son who watched over Israel. God gave all authority to the one good Son, the one good Shepherd who inherited all nations. The other sons include Satan who is the “god” of this current world and the other fallen principalities and powers. I believe originally Satan was the guardian set over Eden and he set the example for the other fallen sons to follow.
In the Old Testament we see many references to these powers. Some examples include the King of Tyre and the Prince of Tyre. Every nation had a human king and above him an angelic King. This is why sometimes these verses appear to be talking about a man and at other times an angel. Well, it is because two beings are being spoken about. In the case of Tyre God was sending a message through Ezekiel to both the bad human king and the bad angelic King. Another, example is when David said, “My Lord said to my Lord.” Sometimes a lot of the prophecies and messianic verses in the Old Testament about Christ appear to be talking about David as well; it is because two beings are being spoken about. Jesus was the Elohim (god) over David and above both of them was the Most High (God). Remember, the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece mentioned in Daniel? Every nation had a divine son or “Lord” over it and above the divine son is the Father.
God (Father) > Lord (divine son) > human King
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 08 2007,19:40) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,12:30) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 08 2007,19:22) What if Jesus is the God of Israel? He is not. G-d is not a man nor the son of man (Num 23:19). Jesus was a man (Acts 2:22, Rom 5:15) and often called himself 'son of man'.
Quote What if the God of Israel had a God? He did not. But good luck trying to prove it.
Quote What if they worked in unison as ONE? What if pigs flew and jello could be nailed to a wall?
Quote Jacob thought his elohim was the one he wrestled with. The one he wrestled with represented the Most High above him.
An angel (Hos 12:4)
I can't proove it to you. Just as I can't proove to an athiest that God exists.I can show you the scriptures in the bible that support my position.
I can show you Jesus offer to drink from the water of life.
It is up to you and your seeking God to hear the voice of the shepherd.
You can't prove it to me because you are not very contextual. Plain and simple. Your mind is focused on some lofty hereafter mine is focused on the here and now. That is one of the many differences between the Jewish teachings and the multitudes of various Christian teachings.Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 09 2007,12:51) First of all I reccomend the book called “The Dictionary of early christian beliefs” it summarizes key quotes from the early church fathers rather concisely. It also does this chronologically so you can see the flow, progression and changes in thought as time went on and as more platonic influence crept into the church. At about the time of Tertullian things started to shift radically in the interpretation of the trinity. Also, if you are familiar with the early church fathers you will note that they didnt believe the Most High had an official name either. Rather titles used as names. Is the Fathers real name “I Am what I will become”? But to be clear yes the Father is YHWH as is Jesus.
This kinda of explains my point hope it makes sense. The early Christians often refer to the Economy. Then rather early on they started to generate the concept of the holy spirit being a seperate person as well. Read the very earliest chruch father writings and they did not hold that view of the spirit. Justin Martyr is a good start.
My view and the early Christian view.
We believe in a trinity BUT NOT the Trinity doctrine of today. The early Christians even used the word trinity BUT NOT what it means today.
The Difference between the terminology of the titles God and Godhead.
God when discussing the Father = Most High only eternal TRUE God. The Source and Power of all things.
God when discussing Jesus = the divine begotten son who shares the very same nature as the Father, but is not the eternal TRUE God but is his firstborn. Jesus was the instrument of Creation the Father used. Jesus is God by nature being of the same substance of divinity but he is not a multiple personality of a triune God. He is the Son of God who revealed his Father to men both in the Old and New Testaments.
Godhead = the administration of the office we call God. Not discussing a person but a hierarchy of administration. God communes with man through his Son as a conduit for his Holy Spirit. This is what the early Christians talked about when they used the term Trinity. (look it up) This is how the Godhead works as a trinity. But God IS NOT a trinity.
God is a title Shared by the Most High and his firstborn and only begotten Son. Two beings of the same nature, like Father like Son. One unbegotten and eternal (the Father) one begotten in the exact image of the unbegotten (the son).
Godhead is a title of the office of God. No longer a divine council as describe in the Old Testament. The Most High only operates through one Son the other principalities and powers fell. The Father works through his Son to share his Spirit. The Trinity is a term of administration describing the Godhead not a definition of the nature of God as a being.
The Father only operates through his one Good Son who loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Through Jesus he can unite with us so we can also share in his nature like his son so that we can become children of God. We must be born from above (born again is what most bibles say) YES! Like Christ himself born of the Father so that we can be LIKE HIM join-heirs with Christ.
thanks for the recommendation on the book. i will pick it up right away. i have all the church fathers but i have never really picked up on what you are referring to. i will reread them though. do you have an example of the early church believing that God did not have a “name”. My understanding has always been that YHWH is God's(Father) name, just like my name is willie.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,12:56) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 08 2007,19:40) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 09 2007,12:30) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 08 2007,19:22) What if Jesus is the God of Israel? He is not. G-d is not a man nor the son of man (Num 23:19). Jesus was a man (Acts 2:22, Rom 5:15) and often called himself 'son of man'.
Quote What if the God of Israel had a God? He did not. But good luck trying to prove it.
Quote What if they worked in unison as ONE? What if pigs flew and jello could be nailed to a wall?
Quote Jacob thought his elohim was the one he wrestled with. The one he wrestled with represented the Most High above him.
An angel (Hos 12:4)
I can't proove it to you. Just as I can't proove to an athiest that God exists.I can show you the scriptures in the bible that support my position.
I can show you Jesus offer to drink from the water of life.
It is up to you and your seeking God to hear the voice of the shepherd.
You can't prove it to me because you are not very contextual. Plain and simple. Your mind is focused on some lofty hereafter mine is focused on the here and now. That is one of the many differences between the Jewish teachings and the multitudes of various Christian teachings.
I would agree with that only I would describe it more as a quality.Though, I don't know what you mean by I can't proove it because I am not contextual and that my mind is on some lofty hereafter.
I believe that kingdom is coming to earth “terra firma”. not some retirement home in the sky.
I don't think you are very contextual because you ignore the fact that your Judaism is one tradition sprouting from an ancient Israel filled with various confusions and traditions. Jesus is the voice crying out the truth.
Higher Critics have done a great job of demonstrating the changes in Judaism to hide the fact that their God had a God.
.
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