The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 29 2007,17:34)

Laurel Sorry you are wrong. He is taking Enviromental Convservation and Natural Rescources Conservation at a College in New York State.

Peace and Love Mrs.:O

Mrs,
Just like you to deny Scripture only so you can say “Laurel you are wrong.”

Even when I quote Scripture you say I am wrong.

Laurel

September 29, 2007 at 5:41 am#67039

Participant

And Mrs,
What in he world does environmental science have to do with the Wisdom of Elohim?

September 29, 2007 at 5:59 am#67045

Participant

STT

You say..

Quote

He is the Word whom the Father begat or spoke from eternity; by whom the Father speaking, maketh all things; who speaketh the Father to us.

Let me see if I understand. Jesus was spoke into being as the word of God then God by that word of God (Jesus) created all things?

Is there a scripture for this. Where is the scripture that says Jesus was spoke into being? And, if Yeshua is the spoken word of God and had a beginning then there must have been a time that God did not have a word. Since you say this word is also the “Wisdom” of God, then there must have been a time when God didnt have wisdom.

Jesus is called the “Word of God” because the Word of God proceeds from him.

Again…

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

He was given that name because the “Word of God” proceeds from him.

Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The sharp sword that proceeds out of his mouth is the “Word of God” spoken of in Heb 4:12.

You seem to contradict yourself. For you said…

Quote

God had no advisor in his work of creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor. The meaning is clearly that God had no one to advise him.
His Wisdom, who WAS deep seated to his own identity.” Wisdom is an attribute of God, and is co-eternal with Him….

Then you said…

Quote

He was not yet named Jesus, or Christ. He is the Word whom the Father begat or spoke from eternity; by whom the Father speaking, maketh all things; who speaketh the Father to us.

Last time I looked, a word that is “spoke” had a begining, and
Something that is “begat” also had a begining.

Yet you say wisdom is co-eternal with the Father.

Jesus is the Word that was with God and the Word that was God and God can not change. Neither can or did Yeshua!

You say…

Quote

In the beginning ….[it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.

It is not “as though he said”. The Word was and is from everlasting to evelasting.

John seems to disagree with you…

1Jn 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

That life which was in the beginning with the Father, The “Word of Life”, that life was eternal and was manifest to us. Yeshua the Lord, the bread of life (Bread sustainer of life)that came down from heaven.

Jn 1:4
In him (the Word) was life; and the life was the light of men.

By this same Yeshua who is given the name “The Word of God”, all things were created by him and without him was not anything created that was created, Jn 1:3, and he is before all things and by him all things consist, Col 1:17, and he upholds all things by the “Word” of his (Yeshuas) power. Heb 1:3.

There simply is no scripture that says that “Jesus Eternal Spirit” had a beginning. Please present one.

Concerning Jn 1:1, read this for an excellent understanding of the Greek grammer and structure of the verse.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

BTW Sis. You quote…

Quote

(Isa. 40:13), says that God had no advisor in his work of creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor.

Are you saying Gods wisdom is greater than he?

Is 40:13
Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor?

There is no mention of his creation here or in the context.

How do you get his wisdom was his advisor? Surly I am misunderstanding you.

For all those who say that Jesus is the “Wisdom of God” personified in Proverbs, then Jesus must be hidden in himself…

Col 2:2 NIV
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Yeshua is made unto us wisdom because all wisdom is hidden in him. 1 Cor 1:30

September 29, 2007 at 6:07 am#67047

Participant

You say…

Quote

And where someone said he could not sin,I don't think is right because it say's he was tempted in all manner as we are. If he couldn't have sinned then how could he have been tempted to.

Wow.

To you Jesus is not only just a mere man but also a sinner?

September 29, 2007 at 6:42 am#67050

IM4Truth

Participant

keyonn Sorry that I misunderstood you. Good luck in your study.
It is a good thing to see what they did in the Old Testament. I just never liked the Kings and
Leviticus rules an regulations that God had to tell the Israelites, because they forgot
God all together. The Covenants are interesting to me. My Husband studies all that cause He
likes Prophecy. He also likes History and I could never remember all of it. Disease's have killed
my Brain cells the Doctors told me. But once I have it down packed I will not forget it.

Peace and Love Mrs.:D

September 29, 2007 at 6:50 am#67051

IM4Truth

Participant

Laurel First of all I was not talking to you . Second you said acertainchap not keyonn. So who is wrong. As far as I saying what to you, you better look back and see who was so nasty to me on the Covenant Tread, you never have been nice to me.
I feel sorry for you that you have to interfere in some body's conversation, get your own Not with me. I will not not respond to you again. It is really a shame that you are like that.

Peace and Love Mrs.:blues: :blues: :blues:

September 29, 2007 at 1:39 pm#67065

Proclaimer

Participant

I see that this discussion has touched on wisdom. I wrote something about that a while back, so I will just do a copy and paste. My thoughts and I am open to learning more and being corrected.

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Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

1. Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
2. Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
3. Wisdom was given birth before creation.
4. Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.

Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

* Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
* Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
* Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.

Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.
===============

September 29, 2007 at 3:54 pm#67069

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To all…..> I think what you are doing is making Jesus God, by taking God's attributes, wisdom, truth, Judjement, word, and ect.,and applying to Jesus the person. Lets ask our selves a question, how was those atributes in Jesus was it not by the annointing He had which was GOD in Him. So naturally those atributes would be in Him and all who have God Spirit in them. Remember Jesus had the fullness God in him i.e. ( all seven spirits of God) were their. But because God resided in Jesus' body with him does not make him God, but God was expressing himself (Through) him. Just like it says God was reconciling the whole world to Himself (THROUGH) the annointed Jesus. To take a atribute that God gives and say it the person God gave it to is a form of lying and stealing from God's glory. Whats so hard to understand that it was the ONE and ONLY GOD who was doing HIS work (THROUGH) Jesus the Christ isn't that what (the Christ) means. Jesus said it was the Father who was in him doing the work. There seames to be an inability to see that the REAL GOD was cohabating in Jesus' Boby. It was God Himself who was performing those mericles and giving Jesus (HIS) words to speak He was present in Jesus. Thats why Thomas said my Lord and My God, He finely came to realize God the Father was actually in Jesus. There were two beings present one was Jesus and One was GOD Himself. The problem is people seal form the Father and give it to the son, somthing Jesus never did. The Father even spoke first person at time through Jesus, remember when Jesus utter all the ever came before me were liers and thieves. Because they would take somthing that God would do and apply it to themselves. This is still done by applying what GOd was doing through Jesus to Jesus, Somthing Jesus never did. He know full well it was God in Him doing His work. Not him doing His own works, saying the son of man can do (NOTHING) of Himself. Why can't we come to a full understanding of that, and Give the FAther the glory do Him. ……..peace to you all……..gene

September 29, 2007 at 4:06 pm#67070

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ….> what i said was Jesus was tempted inall manor as we are but was Keep from sin by the Father. I never said he sinned only he was tempted like we are. Which goes against the trinity, because it also say's God (CANNOT) be tempted by sin, But it say's Jesus was tempted. So how do we reconcile that WJ. Only one way i can see Jesus was not GOD.

Just my take thats all…….peace …gene

September 29, 2007 at 4:42 pm#67072

Participant

Thanks Mrs,
I did mean Kevin and not acertainchap, so sorry to chap also.
Laurel

September 29, 2007 at 4:46 pm#67073

Participant

Our Creator had a back-up plan. Befor He made anything, He made the provision for Y'shua Messiah to come and make Him known.

All the Scripture points to Y'shua, all the Sabbaths, all the Feasts, all the commands, ALL!

When Y'shua did come He prooved the Word, fulfilled it, made it a part of all those who follow Him and guard the commands.

Laurel

September 29, 2007 at 6:36 pm#67076

Participant

Let me see if I understand. Jesus was spoke into being as the word of God then God by that word of God (Jesus) created all things?

Hi JW,

According to the words used in Genesis 1:11-13. But clearly (from passages such as Gen. 2:1-3, Ps. 33:6-9, Ps. 148, Heb. 11:3, etc.) plants were neither “created” nor “made,” they were created and made by GOD'S WORD on the third day, even though God did not use these particular words to describe His actions. There is no basis in science or Scripture for saying that vegetation came into existence by purely natural processes but that everything else was created supernaturally. In fact, the formation of the first plants was clearly supernatural, for they were made as mature plants with fruits already on them.

God created the first male and female humans (Gen. 5:2). But we know from Genesis 2:7 that God FORMED Adam from the dust of the earth and in Genesis 2:22 we are told that God FASHIONED Eve from the rib of Adam.

Throughout Genesis 1 God is speaking and things are happening. God is not sweating, God is not toiling, God is simply telling things to happen and things are happening.

Scripture is clear on the fact that creation is the work of God, creation was guided by God speaking words, and creation was accomplished through Christ who is Himself the Word.

There was only God and by speaking God brought time and space and matter into existence. He simply utters a word and energy is a reality.

God is the sovereign God of creation. He does what he wants to do when he wants to do it where he wants to and to whomever he wants to.Nothing is impossible for God

So why would it be deficult to have Faith in God believig that HE is reconciling the world through His Son?

We believe God created the world and made us in his image, so why is it deficult to believe what God said…

“So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:11.

Jesus Christ is promised for the making good of all the other promises which we are here invited to accept of. He is that David whose sure mercies all the blessings and benefits of the covenant are. “And God has given him in his purpose and promise, has constituted and appointed him, and in the fulness of time will as surely send him as if he had already come, to be all that to us which is necessary to our having the benefit of these preparations.” For God has given him freely;” for what more free than a gift? There was nothing in us to merit such a favour, but Christ is the gift of God. We want one,
1. To attest the truth of the promises which we are invited to take the benefit of; and Christ is given for a witness that God is willing to receive us into his favour upon gospel terms, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, that we may venture our souls upon those promises with entire satisfaction. Christ is a faithful witness, we may take his word—a competent witness, for he lay in the bosom of the Father from eternity, and was perfectly apprised of the whole matter. Christ, as a prophet, testifies the will of God to the world; and to believe is to receive his testimony.

2. To assist us in closing with the invitation, and coming up to the terms of it. We know not how to find the way to the waters where we are to be supplied, but Christ is given to be a leader. We know not what to do that we may be qualified or it, and become sharers in it, but he is given for a commander, to show us what to do and enable us to do it. Much difficulty and opposition lie in our way to Christ; we have spiritual enemies to grapple with, but, to animate us for the conflict, we have a good captain, like Joshua, a leader and commander to tread our enemies under our feet and to put us in possession of the land of promise. Christ is a commander by his precept and a leader by his example; our purpose is to obey him and follow him. He is the PATTERN that God has given us.

The Old Testament is so important to comprehend in order to fully understand what God wants and expects from us. I for one have sooo much to learn and I'm zealous for the Lord, and I thank you all for your contribution in your spiritual intellectual insight of our Father.

I'm sorry JW..I may not have all the answer, I am only giving so much or so little from what the Spirit is giving me, I pray that the Father will give me more understanding over time while I am faithfully reading his words. “For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed, nor has anything been secret, but it should come to light.

God Bless

September 29, 2007 at 6:42 pm#67078

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To all……If we can come to see the concept of ONE GOD IN ALL (AND THROUGH) ALL> it all makes sence every thing Jesus said becomes clear.
Peace brothers and sisters……..gene

September 29, 2007 at 7:40 pm#67079

IM4Truth

Participant

seeking the truth I think when people get mixed up is, when they think that Wisdom was created. Wisdom is what God the Father had always, it is just like His mercy and His Love , the essence of God some of Gods character. Scriptures clearly speaks of Jesus being created before the world was. He then created all by the power what the Father gave Him. That is why it says in Gen. “Let us make men in our image. They were both Spirits and that is the image God created us in. There is spirit in men, scripture tells us.
When you take it all in order it is not confusing at all. It is just that some will want to make it that way. I know some scripture may look like Wisdom is a person or being, but we have to realize what wisdom is.
Jesus said ” Glorify me with the glory we had before the world was.” And what about preeminence, how can He have preeminence if He was not the first in all. God did not have to create wisdom think about that, He was all wise from the beginning.

This has gone on for so long and I don't understand what it is so hard to understand about that. Not only that it is on the wrong tread, it belongs under preexisting.

Peace and Love Mrs.:(

September 29, 2007 at 7:47 pm#67080

Participant

Seeking,
I really enjoy hearing your knowledge and wisdom, you are blessed through your strong will to follow our Master the Messiah Y'shua.

I will look ahead to more of your enlightening posts. I am soooo glad you are here.

Laurel

September 29, 2007 at 7:57 pm#67081

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 30 2007,07:40)

This has gone on for so long and I don't understand what it is so hard to understand about that. Not only that it is on the wrong tread, it belongs under preexisting.

Peace and Love Mrs.:(

Im4truth

You say…

Quote

Scriptures clearly speaks of Jesus being created before the world was.

If scripture is so clear on this. Could you give me a scripture that says Yeshua was a created being?

September 29, 2007 at 8:23 pm#67083

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 30 2007,04:06)

Just my take thats all…….peace …gene

Sorry! I missunderstood you!

Blessings

September 29, 2007 at 8:29 pm#67084

Participant

The mere fact that God mentions another covenant is proves that there is something lacking in the Old Covenant.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

a. It’s in the nature of man to come up with things that are “new” but not needed. God isn’t like that. If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been not need for a second covenant. If God established a New Covenant, it means that there is something lacking in the Old Covenant.

2. (8-12) The New Covenant as it is presented in the Old Testament (quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

September 29, 2007 at 8:46 pm#67086

Participant

Hi IAM4TRUTH

“seeking the truth I think when people get mixed up is, when they think that Wisdom was created. Wisdom is what God the Father had always, it is just like His mercy and His Love , the essence of God some of Gods character.”

Yes I agree with you it is his Character, it is deep seated to his own identity just like his love, his holiness and purity.

Thank you for your input on this. I'm not quite there yet, I still have so much to learn. I will go to the pre-existing thread on this subject. But I have to be patient with the Lord because I know he is the only that one can reveal things to us.

I am very open with your input as well with others. I'd like to keep walking on the straight path in righteousness, so please if you think my revelation on scriptures are wrong then please let me know. Thanks for the encouragement!

September 29, 2007 at 8:49 pm#67087