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Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 29 2007,06:16) Yeshua was never called the “Son of God” before he came to earth. Do we ever see anything like this in the OT? If anything, Yeshua would have been the Word of God before he took on flesh. That has some support in the OT.
Yes that seems to be the case, but there were certainly sons however.We also know that Christ was a mystery that was to be revealed at some point, so that could go some way toward explaining why he is not called the son in the Old Testament. But it also can swing the other way and could be used to say that he was revealed meaning the moment he became a son.
The only OT scripture that I know of that talks about “his son” is the following:
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!However I think some make the argument here that it is David being spoken of or perhaps a prophecy for a future event.
In any case, if Christ became a son when he was conceived as a man, then was that the point that God became a Father?
Also there seem to other recorded events of a messenger who look like the son of God or the son of the gods.
It could also be argued that anyone who comes from God is a son. Even the Word if it/he came from God could be seen as God's offspring.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 28 2007,15:36) Keyonn Why are you looking to men for the answers that you are looking for? And what are you looking for? Is it not more important that you Love God and your neighbor as thyself then to worry what our Forefathers did or did not do.
If you are studying prophecy like my Husband is doing you need Biblical History. But just to see where this men came from, Oh well I know I cant tell you what to dSince you are so young I think you could be a perfect witness for Jesus. Just my thinking and I just want to encourage you to do what Jesus did. Please no offence.:D
Peace and Love Mrs.
Mrs,I think you misread my post. I stated that I was going to be studying th OT. I just cautioned others to be careful studying the early fathers.
Besides, I've always given excuses for not studying enough OT, now I don't have any
.WJ,
Thanks. I'll still be around, just not so busy in the trinity threads. Unless I find some new evidence (either way) in the OT. You have been a very patient “opponent” (for lack of a more suitable word!). Keep pressing on to the prize!
Back at you bro,
Kevinseeking the truth So what you are saying is that God created Wisdom and then Wisdom became His counsellor? That makes a lot of sense!!! No not to me. You need to study this more in order to understand it. No offence. O.K. Because I really believe in this. When it was first brought to me I said:” No way.” Then I studied the word and I find all the scriptures to be pretty clear. One thing we have to remember that scripture does not contradict.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
STT
You say…
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His Word becames Flesh not God himself.You are implying that Jn 1:1 says the “Word of God”. It dosnt.
It says…
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.It dosnt say the word was of God, it says the Word was God!
Even so, can the “Word of God” change? Your implication is the Word of God changed when it became flesh.
The Word was God and still is God. The “Logos” (Word) John used in John 1:1 is to describe Yeshua whom he saw in Revelation…
Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.He was given that name because the “Word of God” proceeds from him.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.The sharp sword that proceeds out of his mouth is the “Word of God” spoken of in Heb 4:12.
Jesus is not merely the saying of God or a thought or plan!
You say…
Quote Jesus said in John4:24
God is SPIRIT( NOT Flesh), and those WORSHIP Him MUST worship IN spirit and truth.Is not the “Word” spirit also?
Jesus who is “Spirit” came into this world as our only Saviour. Jn 1:14
Phil 2:6-8
He was with the Father and returned to the Father.
All things now as in the beginning are upheld by the “Word of his Power”. Heb 1:3
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You say…
Quote God is Immutable! This simply means that God could not change if He wanted to. Perhaps this is a perplexing thought to you, but how can Perfection become more perfect? Not perplexing to me. For I understand that Jn 1:1 says the “Word was God” and that Jn 1:14 says that that “Word” that cannot change was tabernacled among us. Confirming Phil 2:6-8 and Rom 8:3 that Yeshua came in the likeness of sinfull flesh.
His flesh like ours was just a tent or tabernacle that he dwelled in. The difference is Jesus Body was without sin.
Jesus was both Spirit and flesh. There is boatloads of scriptures that he came from heaven leaving the Glory he shared with the Father as God, and coming to pay the price which no man could pay.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.All major translations translated these scriptures this way. So they need no other special interpretation. If they did then it wouldnt say what it says.
Until you can prove otherwise it would do you well to just believe it like it says.
Heres some help!
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
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You say…
Quote
If the Holy Spirit yields the quality of sound-mindedness in a Christian, then insanity—to “lose his mind”—could not possibly result from understanding who and what God is and the role of the Holy Spirit.If you “Fully” understand what and who God is, then no offense, but your God is too small.
W.J. My God is Almighty and not small at all. I don't belief in the trinity. That makes all equal and that is not according to scripture. Prove all things, that one I have, I used to belief like you. Not since I started reading the Word of God.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Isa. 40:13, says that God had no advisor in his work of creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor.
God had no advisor in his work of creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor. The meaning is clearly that God had no one to advise him.
His Wisdom, who WAS deep seated to his own identity.” Wisdom is an attribute of God, and is co-eternal with Him….1:1 In the beginning – (Referring to Gen 1:1, and Prov 8:23.) When all things began to be made by the Word: in the beginning of heaven and earth, and this whole frame of created beings, the Word existed, without any beginning. He was when all things began to be, whatsoever had a beginning. Psa 33:6
He was not yet named Jesus, or Christ. He is the Word whom the Father begat or spoke from eternity; by whom the Father speaking, maketh all things; who speaketh the Father to us. We have, in John 1:18, both a real description of the Word, and the reason why he is so called. He is the only begotten Son of the Father, who is in the bosom of the Father, and hath declared him. And the Word was with God – Therefore distinct from God the Father. The word rendered with, denotes a perpetual tendency as it were of the Son to the Father, in unity of essence. He was with God alone; because nothing beside God had then any being. And the Word was God – Supreme, eternal, independent. There was no creature, in respect of which he could be styled God in a relative sense. Therefore he is styled so in the absolute sense. The Godhead of the Messiah being clearly revealed in the Old Testament, (Jer 23:7; Hos 1:6; Psa 23:1)
In the beginning ….[it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.]
was[Had his being the Word], and the Word was[This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.]
WITH God….[This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.] and the Word was God[This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.]14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt (tabernacle) among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
You guys are still discussing the trinity?
I thought we settled this a few months ago.
Trinity is nowhere taught in scripture.
david Some will never learn or don't want to. No offence anybody. Just my understanding.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
“Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world.” (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB)
Could this passage merely be talking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract?
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.Quote david Some will never learn or don't want to. No offence anybody. Just my understanding. Peace and Love Mrs.:D
I realize this, Mrs. D. It was mostly a joke. I haven't been watching the trinity thread for a couple months.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 29 2007,08:36) Keyonn Why are you looking to men for the answers that you are looking for? And what are you looking for? Is it not more important that you Love God and your neighbor as thyself then to worry what our Forefathers did or did not do.
If you are studying prophecy like my Husband is doing you need Biblical History. But just to see where this men came from, Oh well I know I cant tell you what to dSince you are so young I think you could be a perfect witness for Jesus. Just my thinking and I just want to encourage you to do what Jesus did. Please no offence.:D
Peace and Love Mrs.
Iam4,
Clearly you misunderstood acertainchap. He said he was going to study the Torah, that is plain enough. He wants to learn from the Creator not men as you so accused him.
LaurelWELCOME BACK ChipWhite! So glad to see you. Also, Seeking, I am very glad to have you here, we will have many good studies in the near future.
Laurel
to all……Portraying wisdom as Jesus is not scriptural For several reasons
one….wisdom is obviously being showen as and atribute of God Himself. Just like the word is also.
Two…. Jesus plainly said He could do (NOTHING) by Himself.
three…There seams to be a problem the word Christ meanning Jesus instead of the annointing or (HOLY SPIRIT) and while the annointing can be In Jesus it is not him. This annointing was the source of the wisdom and work being done by Jesus. The problem is we get the annointing mixed up with the annointed. For instance where it say's the Christ was that rock thea followed the in the wilderness. It should read the annointing was the Rock the followed them, not the person Jesus. We need to remember the annointing was God and the annointed was Jesus. Thats why Jesus said the Father who was in Him did the work. God the Father is synonymous with the Spirit or annointing, and is not the person Jesus, as trinitarians try to make is. Taking atributes of the Father and applying to an individual other the The Father is stealing glory that belongs to Him. While we as Jesus can recieve these atributes into us, they come from one God, the Father who is the creater of all things . Trinitarians breakout these atributes and apply the to Jesus and then to the Spirit and then apply them back to God as part of there trinitarian theology . Jesus was a human being exactly as you and I are with no advantage other than the fullness ofGod's spirit was in Him. Jesus was not a son once and later became a son on a paticular day again. He was just as it say's a second man Adam. And where someone said he could not sin,I don't think is right because it say's he was tempted in all manner as we are. If he couldn't have sinned then how could he have been tempted to. IT was God in him that keep him from sinning not just himself. And if he could not have sinned why did he say “to him that overcomes even as I have”. I believe he struggled with sin just like we do, but with the Fathers help he overcame, just like we can……Just the way i see it….peace to all…..geneGene,
I do understand your passion for protecting the Soverignity of our Creator. Messiah is our Head. He is our Mediator. Messiah is above us and our Father is His Head.We must however agree that Y'shua is the fullness of the Father. In otherwords, the Father fully manifest Himself in His SOn in whom He trusted to show “us” the Way that would bring “us” to the Creator. Only through Messiah we can come before Him.
To establish the word fullness from my perspective, the way I use it and the way Scripture uses it: It does not mean to bring an end to. It means to give full meaning to.
We can through Messiah have understanding and knowledge of YHWH our Elohim. I just read a few chapter in Isaiah this morning as saw this prophecy of the Messiah and who is the Messiah:
Isa 63:8 For He said, Surely they are My people, children that will not lie: so He was their Saviour.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Messenger of His Presence saved them: in His love and in His compassion He redeemed them; and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.Messiah IS the Messenger of His Presence, meaning the presence of YHWH.
Laurel
So Yes, we can portray Y'shua as Wisom, as Y'shua is the Messenger of His Presence, YHWH sent Y'shua to us for that purpose, so that we could know our Father who sent His Son.
Laurel Sorry you are wrong. He is taking Enviromental Convservation and Natural Rescources Conservation at a College in New York State.
Peace and Love Mrs.:O
Gene,
I just want o comment on the last thing you said.Y'shua Messiah did not sin. period! Being tempted in this context is like this:
You see a woman in a bikini on the sidewalk as you pass by. She is shapely an has long wavy hair. You look back at the road and believe, “Wow am I blessed to have a wonerful wife and children at home, and no longer search for outer beauty since I found the meaning of inner beauty, and besides my wife is beautiful.”
See this man was tempted. The devil was up in his face with temptation. Did he sin? No.
Here is the difference.
The same sinerio, BUT the man believes in his heart, “Wow was she hot! I wouldn't mind having her in my bed. My wife wouldn't appreciate it, but I sure would.”
See the difference between temptation and sin now? In the second sinerio, the man sins because he lusted for flesh. The first instance the man never gave the woman in the bikini a second thought and instead remembered the blessing of his wife.
Laurel
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