The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

IM4truth

Couple of questions? Is God greater than your human natural finite understanding?

Do you think that you have a “full knowledge” of the nature of an infinite God and who he is?

Do you think that man in his limited understanding of a God who is Spirit can fully know all about his nature?

Do you believe that “nothing is impossible for God”, and that if he as our only Saviour wanted to, could come in the likeness of sinfull flesh?
Is God and his nature “limited” so that he can not appear to man as he pleases?

These questions are not just “cop out” questions for those who are trying to justify the Trinity and our limited knowledge of God.

Any man that thinks he knows anything knows nothing as he ought to know. 1 Cor 8:2

These are the words of the Apostle Paul who was caught up to the third heaven and was shown things that were unlawfull for him to utter. 2 Cor 12:1-4.

Revelation is progressive. Its not the Trinitarian that invented the word “Mystery”. Its Jesus and the Apostles.

Col 2:1 NET
:2 My goal is that their hearts, having been knit together4 in love, may be encouraged, and that they may have all the riches that assurance brings in their understanding of the knowledge of the mystery of God, namely, Christ,2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 2:4 I say this so that no one will deceive you through arguments that sound reasonable.

The word “Mystery, is found 27 times in the NT scriptures. The greek word is; 'mystērion' which means;

1) hidden thing, secret, mystery

a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals

b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding

This word “Mystery” surrounds Yeshua in the Bible.

Here we see Paul talking about this “Mystery” which he defines as Christ in us…

Col 1:
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Notice three things here concerning the “Mystery“.

[Worshipping Jesus]

mr steve

You say…

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So Jesus is God because he is the Son of God.  According to your logic you are also the person you are born from.  This sounds like reincarnation while the other person is still living.   This is heresy at its best.

So according to your logic…

Your Father is Human and you are not? Is it possible to be two differennt persons and be of the same ontological nature.

Before you go off in the “we are sons of God too” mode. Jesus is the Only 'Monogenes' “Unique” Son of God.

Jesus is the “Image of God”, the exact representation of his person/substance and all things are upheld by the word of his power and he is before all things and by him all things consist!  Col  1:15-17, Heb 1:3

Do you know any other son of God like that?

So the argument that Jesus is the Son of God so he cant be God is fallacious or you are not 100% human like your Father.

[Worshipping Jesus]

mr steve

You say…

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I submit to you that every time Jesus refers to his Father he makes the inherent declaration he is the Son of God.  Moreover, every time in doing so, he declares that he had a beginning.  Like you said yourself, sons are born.

The problem you have mr steve is there is no pre-incarnation scrptures of Jesus calling the Father, Father ,as a Son untill he came in the flesh. Niether is there a scripture that says he was born a son way back in eternity.

You can infer that because Jesus was to be born in the flesh that he was a Son from eternity, but there is no pre-incarnate scripture to prove your point. Jesus was not given the title “Son of God” until he came in the flesh! If Jesus was born a son way back in eternity, then you are saying he was born again. 2 births. To be born again you would have to die. So you are saying Jesus died and was born again in Mary.

Now not only was he born twice but to you he would have had to die twice.

Where is the scripture?

No way around it my friend. Thats reincarnation.

And you say what I believe is heresy?

Phil 2 says he was in the “Form” 'morphe' of God.

The Bible says he was the Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world, but he did not litterally become the lamb untill he came in the flesh and hung on calvary.

You are preaching to the choir concerning his pre-existence. The difference in you and I is I believe scriptures show he is YHWH (not the Father) who came in the flesh.
http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

For Jesus is the God of the OT. Jesus said…

Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

What scriptures was he talking about? The OT Hebrew scriptures.

You say…

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Considering the aforementioned, why would you want to debate me?  No reasonable person looking at your posts and mine would suggest for you to debate me.  That's my opinion.  You will probably call me arrogant, but that's my position with respect to this topic only.

Dont think so highly of yourself my friend, for there are many here who would disagree with you on his pre-existence?

So are you saying they are heretics also? See we are in the same camp that he pre-existed. Why dont you go after others who disagree with you on Jesus coming in the flesh which you have said those who deny this is antichrist.

Is it that its easier for you to gang up on the only kid on the block?  

The Bible is a biography of God and Yeshua takes claim to it.

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

You contend that the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus. So you believe that all three are Jesus. This is a new twist. Let me attempt to sort this out. This should be fun.

Mathew 1:18 says the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise… The angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph and said Mary had conceived by the Holy Ghost and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here, the angel of the Lord says the name of the son is Jesus and also identifies this Jesus as the Savior, for he shall save his people from their sins. So the son here is called Jesus and this same Jesus is our Savior.

In Mathew 3:11 John the Baptist said that Jesus Christ would baptize his followers with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Here, John says Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost whom you also say is Jesus. So you also say Jesus will baptize with Jesus. Mathew 3:16 says the Spirit of God descended upon Christ like a dove. Luke 3:22 says the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove. So Mathew says the Spirit of God descended like a dove and Luke says the Holy Ghost descended like a dove. Accordingly, if both the Spirit of God and the Holy Ghost were in the form of a dove, then it can be reasonably inferred that the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of God are one in the same. The baptism of the Holy Ghost commenced in Acts 2 where the Spirit appeared as cloven tongues of fire and sat upon each of them and they spoke with other tongues. I still see no where in scripture that the Holy Ghost is Jesus.
Everywhere I read Jesus is the Son of God. Please don't ask me again for all the scriptures.

You state that the name of the Father is never declared by Jesus because there is some name that he has that we don't know. Then you presume that his name must be Jesus because of the Go ye into all the world… scripture. Don't you see this as quite a stretch.

In fairness to you I just did another search by inputing “Jesus Son” and all that comes up are scriptures which identify Jesus as the Son of God.
I find no reference to Jesus being referred to as the Holy Ghost or the Father.

A professor once told me that words only have meaning when they are attached to certain objects or persons, things, etc. Moreover, for good communication we need to know what objects, persons and things are being referred to. With that in mind, when Jesus Christ is identified in scripture as the Son of God, isn't the God that Jesus is the Son of the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Moses, David, and all the prophets? Aren't we referring to the same God? So every time Jesus states that he is the Son of God or God is his Father, isn't he also making an inherent declaration of the name of God Almighty, Jehovah, YHWH, Elohim, and any other possible reference to the only Supreme God who is above all and over all?

Hence, I contend that Christ did declare his Father's name by virtue of stating countless times that he was sent by his Father. Just a little something for you to consider.

Take Care

Steven

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

Please see the pre-existence thread if you would like to view the scriptures I sited on Christ being the Son of God before the incarnation.

Thank you for your response. It's abundantly clear to me where you stand. I was there once myself for many years.

Take care,

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

mr steve

you say…

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You contend that the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus.  So you believe that all three are Jesus.  This is a new twist. Let me attempt to sort this out.  This should be fun.

You should really take time to read my post and try to understand rather than just shoot from the hip.

If you dont understand what I write or missrepresent me then it would be hard to debate you because I would have to take time to reiterate my points.

Where do you see me saying “So you believe that all three are Jesus.”? I am simply saying that we dont have the Fathers name or the Spirits name, yet Jesus says go and baptise in the name of “singular” Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I am simply saying that the Apostles only knew and preached one name “Jesus” that we know of.

So when they went and baptised in the name of Jesus they knew that Jesus was the name above all names and that all power and authority was given to Jesus in the verse before Matt 28:19 and that in Jesus name was all the fulness of God.

So Jesus is the representation of all that God is.

The Disciples were obeying his command.

Therfore the Father Son and Holy Ghost is summed up in the one name.

Not that the Fathers name is Jesus or the Spirits name is Jesus.

But you still didnt address the fact that Jesus mentioned three.

Or maybe you could touch on the scripture you mentioned that Jesus would baptise us in the Holy Spirit and fire.

HMMM. Jesus a mere man baptising men in the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 28 2007,10:09)

Couple of questions? Is God greater than your human natural finite understanding? Do you think that you have a “full knowledge” of the nature of an infinite God and who he is? Do you think that man in his limited understanding of a God who is Spirit can fully know all about his nature? Do you believe that “nothing is impossible for God”, and that if he as our only Saviour wanted to, could come in the likeness of sinfull flesh? Is God and his nature “limited” so that he can not appear to man as he pleases?

This is the God is beyond our natural understanding argument again.

Yes it is true that God is beyond our understanding, but God has revealed things about himself in scripture and with scripture we should stay. Beyond understanding is no reason to accept a faulty creed or philosophy devised centuries after the last book in the bible was written.

I could argue with you that God is a crocodile as some aboriginals believe, and then make exactly the same argument that he can appear as anything for nothing is impossible.

We shouldn't confuse the foolishness of man with the foolishness of God. For God's foolishness is even greater than mans wisdom.

So what chance does mans foolishness have?

[seeking the truth]

Hi WJ..

You asked,

[Do you believe that “nothing is impossible for God”, and that if he as our only Saviour wanted to, could come in the likeness of sinfull flesh?]

“I am the LORD, I change not…” -Malachi 3:6

God is Immutable!  This simply means that God could not change if He wanted to.  Perhaps this is a perplexing thought to you, but how can Perfection become more perfect?  How can a Marvelous God Who is infinitely omnipotent become any more powerful?  It is impossible!  God cannot change for He is the full embodiment of truth and justice.  Yes, there are some things which God CANNOT do!  God cannot become more Perfect.  God cannot become more Holy.  God cannot become more forgiving.  God could not be any more fair with humanity AND God is Light he cannot come in the LIKENESS of a SINFULL FLESH.

1John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him(Jesus)
and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

God says what He means and means what He says (John 14:2).  God CANNOT lie!

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” -Titus 1:2

His Word becames Flesh not God himself.

Jesus said in John4:24
God is SPIRIT( NOT Flesh), and those WORSHIP Him MUST worship IN spirit and truth.

James 1:13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Was Jesus Tempeted by the Devil for 40 days?  YES
How did he overcome the TEMPATATION?

Jesus had put on the FULL armor of God,  which are Truth,Righteousness, Peace,Faith, and word of God.
Jesus was quoting the bible thw word of God, to keep himself from being tempted from the devil.

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

I accept the point that when the apostles preached in the name of Jesus that he was representing the fullness of the Godhead in the flesh. Very good.

However, where do you find that I said that Christ was a mere man? And you say that I don't understand your post. Are you trying to make me laugh? You succeeded.

I'm still curious why you do not believe that Jesus pre-existed. What do think the scripture means where Jesus says he is from heaven and will return there? Or in Hebrews where it says by whom also he made the worlds? Paul is referring to a person that he refers to as the Son. So how did he not pre-exist as the Son. Where is the word referred to as a Son?

Take Care

Steven

[seeking the truth]

Continue….

On the day of Pentecost, God poured out what Jesus termed, “the Promise of the Father.” (Acts 1:8) This was, of course, the Holy Spirit. But have we ever linked this Promise of the Father with the promise God made to Abraham? The Promise of the Father – the Holy Spirit — was actually THAT promise – completely fulfilled.

The promise of God to Abraham was the promise of SONSHIP.  Yes, God promised Abraham would have a son, Isaac. But God also promised Abraham that through his son Isaac, all the peoples of the earth would be blessed – blessed by a Savior. Furthermore, it was through this Savior that ALL could become sons and daughters of God. It was through Jesus that God would eventually, “bring many sons unto glory.” (Heb. 2:10) The Holy Spirit of promise was therefore the Spirit of sonship – the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham.

Paul continually makes the point that Jesus Christ is the complete fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham, indeed, of God’s promise of a Redeemer, going back to Adam. (Gen. 3:15) Jesus is the, “Seed of the woman,” and, “the Seed of Abraham.” Paul tells the Galatians that there are not, “many seeds,” but ONE SEED – JESUS CHRIST. But then he shows that if we are baptized INTO Jesus Christ then we are OF HIM and IN HIM – and therefore of that ONE SEED as well, because we are one with HIM.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ (Gal 3:16)….For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29)

Christ is THE SEED. We are in Christ — the Body of Christ. Therefore, because we are IN HIM, so are we of that ONE seed. There is ONE CHRIST and ONE SEED – Jesus. But we partake of all that Jesus is because we are made one with Him through faith – and are in union with God his FATHER where the SEED of Christ CAME from.

PLEASE UNDERATND THE  UNION WITH CHRIST is the key. We have nothing outside of Him. We have everything in Him. Everything depends upon our relationship with HIM.

How do we become ONE with Christ? The Holy Spirit is what makes us ONE WITH CHRIST. Paul tells us that, “by ONE Spirit we are baptized into one Body.” (I Cor. 12:13) The Holy Spirit is therefore the agency by which we are made one with Jesus Christ, and thus become SONS and DAUGHTERS of God.

Again, this cannot be overemphasized: We are sons and daughters of God ONLY because we are in Christ – for HE IS THE ONE SEED. Jesus is the ONE anointed of God, the ONE elect of God, and the ONE Son of God. Everything we are called, and everything we are, is only possible because we are IN HIM.

Sonship is the result of being in THE SON. When God sent forth the Holy Spirit – which was, “The Promise of the Father,” He was bringing His promise of sonship – which as we saw goes back to Abraham – to pass in it’s fullness. This is a Truth revealed all through the New Testament:

But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (Gal 4:4-7)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom 8:14-17)

The reason you and I are sons of God is because we have RECEIVED JESUS CHRIST BY FAITH. We are adopted as sons because we have become one with THE Son, who ALSO is One with THE Father.

To be a son or daughter of God is to be in the family of God. And individuals in the same family usually look like each other, don’t they? Sure. This is, in fact, the case with God’s family. He wants His sons and daughters to look like Jesus Christ. But not physically. Rather, He wants us to grow to bear the moral and spiritual likeness of His Son.

To be, “in Christ,” means many things, not the least of which is that we are to grow to bear His image and likeness. This IS the purpose of God for this age — that He might conform us to the image and likeness of Jesus Christ WHICH IS THE LIKENESS OF OUR INVISIBLE FATHER..

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

Herein we see God’s intended outcome of being born anew as a son or daughter in Jesus Christ: TO CONFORM US TO THE IMAGE OF THE SON. God wants to present, “each man mature in Christ.” He wants us to grow up in Jesus.

Even the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in ALL WISDOM; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (Col 1:26-28)

So  we are saved FOR something, aren’t we? We are saved FOR a purpose, aren’t we? Yep. And that purpose, for this age, is that we might grow up to be sons and daughters who bear the image of Jesus, and thus, be WITNESSES unto GOD just like how Jesus was a witness to HIM..

The Promise of the Father – the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of sonship – is always working in us unto this end: That we might be conformed to Christ, and thus, be a living WITNESS to Him. Jesus told His disciples, “But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto Me.” (Acts 1:8) That POWER is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit takes everything of Jesus Christ and makes Him real and articulate in and through us. The Holy Spirit – the Spirit of sonship — makes us witnesses unto Jesus Christ.

John also said, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” (John 1:12) This is the same thought. Through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, God’s people would have the power to become sons of God – which would be a living witness unto Jesus Christ.

What is a WITNESS? A witness to Jesus Christ is someone who is defined by their relationship to Christ – a witness to Christ is someone who looks like Christ. This is God’s purpose for those whom He calls to Christ – He wants us to bear the moral and spiritual image of His Son.

There is a great purpose and work which God is doing in His people today. He is trying to conform us to the image of His Son. But GOD must do this. We cannot. All He asks of us is that we abide in the Vine by faith (dependency). All He asks is our unconditional devotion to Him.

When John says that, “every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure,” he is not talking about mere WORKS. He is talking about a pur
e and unpolluted faith and devotion to God. This is the meaning of true holiness. God has given us His Spirit of Sonship, and now He wants us to grow up to look like THE SON, for we are going to be spending all eternity living with Father in the New Jerusalem with our King.

God Bless…

[kejonn]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Sep. 28 2007,12:06)

WJ; I accept the point that when the apostles preached in the name of Jesus that he was representing the fullness of the Godhead in the flesh.  Very good. However, where do you find that I said that Christ was a mere man?  And you say that I don't understand your post.  Are you trying to make me laugh?  You succeeded. I'm still curious why you do not believe that Jesus pre-existed.  What do think the scripture means where Jesus says he is from heaven and will return there?  Or in Hebrews where it says by whom also he made the worlds?  Paul is referring to a person that he refers to as the Son. So how did he not pre-exist as the Son.  Where is the word referred to as a Son? Take Care Steven

Luk 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Yeshua was never called the “Son of God” before he came to earth. Do we ever see anything like this in the OT? If anything, Yeshua would have been the Word of God before he took on flesh. That has some support in the OT.

BTW, since I have been debating WJ for some time, I can assure you that he believes that Yeshua has existed eternally with the Father as 1 person of the triune God. Him and I have had several volleys on that aspect, particularly in regards to “firstborn of all creation”.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mr. Steve….> i agree with Kejonn on this point, Jesus was not a son till He became one, at his berth. God the Father said (THIS DAY) I have begotten you, not some time in the past.

seeking truth ……very good post your insite shows in your posts……bless you sister……..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

kejonn

Sorry. Tried to keep it as brief as possible!

You say…

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Are you certain that he saw God, just because that was the statement? Then what of this passage? Take the time to read the whole chapter. No single instance of the appearance of God, only and angel every single time. Yet Manoah said “We will surely die, for we have seen God.” Thus it can be seen that the people of the OT viewed God and His servants, or a manifestation in some cases, as synonymous. If they had seen an angel of God, they said they had seen God.

I am certain of what the scriptures say. Are you sure they saw an Angel?

The Hebrew word for Angel is mal'ak , which means…

1) messenger, representative
a) messenger
b) angel
c) the theophanic angel

Manoahs wife came to him and said…”
Jdg 13:6  Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name.

Jdg 13:10  So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, “Behold, the man who came the other day has appeared to me.”

Jdg 13:11  Then Manoah arose and followed his wife, and when he came to the man he said to him, “Are you the man who spoke to the woman?” And he said, “I am.”

You see kejonn, Trinitarians believe Jesus is the God of the OT. When God appeared to men it was Jesus the Image of God. Thus we don’t have to make inference or read into what the Hebrew men of God mean when they say “They saw God”. No contradiction to us for seeing Jesus is seeing the “Image of the invisible God”, which is now seeing God visible.

You say…

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So in the face of these passages, are you so certain that Jacob actually said YHWH God Himself?

Yep.

You say…

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It says what it says. This verse is very anti-trinitarian because the trinity does not say the Father is the Son. That is Oneness or sabellianism. But Yeshua say that if Philip had seen him, he saw the Father. Do you now agree that Yeshua is the Father? But we know that Yeshua came to represent his Father.

I think you know that I am not saying Yeshua is the Father. But when Philip says…

Jn 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father , and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me , Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

That he is clearly asking Jesus to show him God. Yet Jesus says…” Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me , Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The Father is God right? What else could he mean? Hardly a anti-trinitarian scripture!

You say…

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Why would the context be the Father? Because it has to be to support your theology? 2 out of 3 verses say “God”.

What are you saying? That the word God in these scriptures is not the Father?

Look again…
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
1 Jn 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Context is the Father.

Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But you say that Jesus words in Jn 6:46 should be interpreted that Jesus is only saying “he perceived the Father”rather than actually “Seeing the Father”.

Yet you say to me “Why would the context be the Father? Because it has to be to support your theology?”  

You say…

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And I later supplied the many definitions of “see” (a form of “seen”). Many of them do not have anything to do with optical perception. So can you definitively say the “seen” means visually?

See above.

I said…

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Can you give me a scripture that says Yeshua was filled with the Holy Spirit?

You said…

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Did it leave him after the baptism? Joh 1:32  John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. And before you get excited. “He” is implied. It is not in the original Greek.

There is a diference in “remained upon him” and “Being filled”. The Spirit came upon Yeshua without measure to fulfill all righteousness and fulfill the scriptures. Is there any scripture to be found where he was filled? Not even at birth, when its recorded that John the Baptist was filled from birth.

I said…

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Yes Jesus came in the likeness of sinfull flesh (Phil 2) and in his temple and his natural mind he grew until all things that he had with the Father had come back to him.

You say…

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Any scripture to support your assumption? Because that is all it is at this point. This is a statement that is colored by your theology, not the Bible.

Yes of course kejonn.  

I said…

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Jn 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

You said…

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But wasn't this statement made after the anointing of the HS? Yes. Thank you for proving my point.

Huh? Proving your point? Jesus in the verse is saying the Holy Spirit will take from him and show it unto us. So the Holy Spirit gives everything to Yeshua and then takes it back?

Look again…

Jn 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he (the Holy Spirit) shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

I said…

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It looks like the Holy Spirit is taking from Yeshua and showing it unto us. Imagine that the Holy Spirit of God subservient to just a man?

You said…

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Not just a man. The Son of God, the Messiah. I never said he was “just a man”. But his reality was “just a man” in the sense that he was flesh and blood and died. He was a man that died and was given a second place to his Father. Can any other man claim the same? I have shown you that the HS would teach us all things. That is one of the functions of the HS. Why should it be any different for Yeshua? Was it a different Holy Spirit that descended as a dove on Yeshua? If so, there are 4 “persons” of the Godhead.

If he is not Just a man then what is he? I am a Son of God, but I am still just a man who has the Spirit of God. But you still haven’t given a scripture where Jesus is filled with the Spirit like we are. Was the Holy Spirit different that “came upon” Yeshua? No. I think you know that.

Remember the Holy Spirit is taking from Yeshua and showing it unto us. Pretty amazing huh?

You say…

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How so? The writer said “Christ” not “Jesus Christ”. “Jesus Christ” is not his name…”Jesus” is his name, his title is “Christ”.

No need to beat the horse on this one. Heb 11:25-27 is clearly saying Moses esteemed Christ (Yeshuas) riches greater than Egypts.

You say…

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You say “elevates it”, but this is not evident, only if you apply trinitarian special pleading. And as far as “theos”…was there another Greek word for “God”?

“theios, Acts 17:29, 2 Pet 1:3,4,  This word is found only these 3 times in scripture.

Which means: 1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
a) of Christ
b) Holy Spirit
c) the Father

The  word comes from the root ‘theos’. Why didn’t the writers make use of this word in John 1:1, or Jn 20:28, for this word is translated as divine?

“theotes, Col 2:9” Which means…1) deity a) the state of being God, Godhead

Again , could have used in Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28.

or

“theiotes” Rom 1:20″ Which means ‘1) divinity, divine nature. This word comes from ‘theios’, which comes from, ‘theos’,  Nope not used in Jn 1:1 or Jn 20:20.

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And then in verse 10 speaks of this same Son who is God (Theos) as the Lord who laid the foundations of the earth. This happens often when the NT writers quote OT scriptures.

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The New Testament is all about the new creation. Can you prove that this was not the new earth?

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Will the new earth Perish? Was the new earth created in the beginning? Does the words “Hast laid” mean future? Has the new heavens and new earth been created yet?

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But you have no scripture that shows he came from heaven. Wait, here's one: Joh 3:13  “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. “descended from heaven”. You got me…or do you? The Holy spirit is from heaven, right?

Man, that is a real stretch kejonn. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

The word “descended” is katabainō, which means;

1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down
1) as from the temple at Jerusalem, from the city of Jerusalem
2) of celestial beings coming down to earth

There are boat loads of scriptures saying Jesus preexisted his coming in the flesh.

Jn 6:38
[For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jn 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
106tn Or “he was formerly?”  
http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm

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So, yes, Yeshua has descended from heaven. This is so because of the Holy Spirit's union with Mary. What other man can claim this? Thus he is indeed the only man to descend from heaven due to his parental heritage.

How was it you put it kejonn? “Because it has to be to support your theology?”

Just using your own words to me!

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The say word translated as “descended” in John 3:13 is used again to translate as “came down”. So see above. He had a heavenly Father after all!

See above.

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Huh? What is this supposed to mean? He will appear at the end of this present earth. Clear to who? Those who need to see it to support their theology? I have shown you an alternate interpretation, but you can't agree because it would strike a chink in your trinitarian armor. It says what is says: if his one-time death was not sufficient, he would have had to have been born and died many times over since the beginning of the fall of man. But this verse tells us that his one-time death was a sufficient covering for all time.

Heb 9:26 clearly states that Yeshua “Appeared Once” and that he will ‘appear the second time”.  This scripture lines up beautifully with John 3:13, 6:38, 6:62 and Heb 10:5-7.

Look at the similarities of these two verses…
Jn 6:38
[For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

We will have to disagree on his preexistense.

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This is no problem at all. God foreknew the Savior, and He brought Him into the world in the 1st century. Why do you view this as a problem? Is it the word “appear”? Well, did he literally “appear” or was he born of Mary?

Both. See above.

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How many other people were prophesied about?

Acoording to you everyone. For you say everyone existed from the beginning and now has appeared.

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But no man can make these claims… Jn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

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See above.

Did you and I descend from heaven? Can we make this claim?
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He came down from heaven because the Holy Spirit is from heaven, The HS united with Mary. This just shows he has an earthly parent and a divine parent.

Again, was Jesus the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus say… “I by the Holy Spirit came down from heaven”?

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Wait no longer! Well, wait no longer since I have answered already. One parent from earth, the other from heaven. No other human before or since can claim a human mother and Holy Spirit father.

How does this concept nullify the words of Jesus? I have an earthly parent and a heavenly parent also. When you were born again by the Holy Spirit did you “Descend” from heaven?

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You are correct. There are no pronouns to follow in this. But there ARE in 1 John 5:20. Therein lies the difference. This is a poor comparison.

1 Jn 5:20 NET
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know58 him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one59 is the true God and eternal life.

59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.
http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm

1 Jn 1:1-3 States that Jesus is the “Eternal life”. You should follow your own rule!

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I don't see “him” or any other pronoun repeated in 1 Tim 1:17. Nor any other pronoun. There is a pronoun in the last sentence of 1 John 5:20 though. I reiterate…poor comparison. The context of who God is to Paul is in the first 2 verses of 1 Tim. You just don't accept the translation of every single version I've seen.

Paul dosnt mention Father in 1 Tim 1:17, but he is speaking clearly of Yeshua in the previous 6 verses.
The word king means “king of the ages“. Who is the “King of Kings”?

Rev 19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

To be continued…

[Laurel]

Quote (seeking the truth @ Sep. 29 2007,05:42)

Continue…. On the day of Pentecost, God poured out what Jesus termed, “the Promise of the Father.” (Acts 1:8) This was, of course, the Holy Spirit. But have we ever linked this Promise of the Father with the promise God made to Abraham? The Promise of the Father – the Holy Spirit — was actually THAT promise – completely fulfilled. The promise of God to Abraham was the promise of SONSHIP.  Yes, God promised Abraham would have a son, Isaac. But God also promised Abraham that through his son Isaac, all the peoples of the earth would be blessed – blessed by a Savior. Furthermore, it was through this Savior that ALL could become sons and daughters of God. It was through Jesus that God would eventually, “bring many sons unto glory.” (Heb. 2:10) The Holy Spirit of promise was therefore the Spirit of sonship – the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. Paul continually makes the point that Jesus Christ is the complete fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham, indeed, of God’s promise of a Redeemer, going back to Adam. (Gen. 3:15) Jesus is the, “Seed of the woman,” and, “the Seed of Abraham.” Paul tells the Galatians that there are not, “many seeds,” but ONE SEED – JESUS CHRIST. But then he shows that if we are baptized INTO Jesus Christ then we are OF HIM and IN HIM – and therefore of that ONE SEED as well, because we are one with HIM. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ (Gal 3:16)….For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29) Christ is THE SEED. We are in Christ — the Body of Christ. Therefore, because we are IN HIM, so are we of that ONE seed. There is ONE CHRIST and ONE SEED – Jesus. But we partake of all that Jesus is because we are made one with Him through faith – and are in union with God his FATHER where the SEED of Christ CAME from. PLEASE UNDERATND THE  UNION WITH CHRIST is the key. We have nothing outside of Him. We have everything in Him. Everything depends upon our relationship with HIM. How do we become ONE with Christ? The Holy Spirit is what makes us ONE WITH CHRIST. Paul tells us that, “by ONE Spirit we are baptized into one Body.” (I Cor. 12:13) The Holy Spirit is therefore the agency by which we are made one with Jesus Christ, and thus become SONS and DAUGHTERS of God. Again, this cannot be overemphasized: We are sons and daughters of God ONLY because we are in Christ – for HE IS THE ONE SEED. Jesus is the ONE anointed of God, the ONE elect of God, and the ONE Son of God. Everything we are called, and everything we are, is only possible because we are IN HIM. Sonship is the result of being in THE SON. When God sent forth the Holy Spirit – which was, “The Promise of the Father,” He was bringing His promise of sonship – which as we saw goes back to Abraham – to pass in it’s fullness. This is a Truth revealed all through the New Testament: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (Gal 4:4-7) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom 8:14-17) The reason you and I are sons of God is because we have RECEIVED JESUS CHRIST BY FAITH. We are adopted as sons because we have become one with THE Son, who ALSO is One with THE Father. To be a son or daughter of God is to be in the family of God. And individuals in the same family usually look like each other, don’t they? Sure. This is, in fact, the case with God’s family. He wants His sons and daughters to look like Jesus Christ. But not physically. Rather, He wants us to grow to bear the moral and spiritual likeness of His Son. To be, “in Christ,” means many things, not the least of which is that we are to grow to bear His image and likeness. This IS the purpose of God for this age — that He might conform us to the image and likeness of Jesus Christ WHICH IS THE LIKENESS OF OUR INVISIBLE FATHER.. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30) Herein we see God’s intended outcome of being born anew as a son or daughter in Jesus Christ: TO CONFORM US TO THE IMAGE OF THE SON. God wants to present, “each man mature in Christ.” He wants us to grow up in Jesus. Even the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in ALL WISDOM; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (Col 1:26-28) So  we are saved FOR something, aren’t we? We are saved FOR a purpose, aren’t we? Yep. And that purpose, for this age, is that we might grow up to be sons and daughters who bear the image of Jesus, and thus, be WITNESSES unto GOD just like how Jesus was a witness to HIM.. The Promise of the Father – the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of sonship – is always working in us unto this end: That we might be conformed to Christ, and thus, be a living WITNESS to Him. Jesus told His disciples, “But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto Me.” (Acts 1:8) That POWER is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit takes everything of Jesus Christ and makes Him real and articulate in and through us. The Holy Spirit – the Spirit of sonship — makes us witnesses unto Jesus Christ. John also said, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” (John 1:12) This is the same thought. Through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, God’s people would have the power to become sons of God – which would be a living witness unto Jesus Christ. What is a WITNESS? A witness to Jesus Christ is someone who is defined by their relationship to Christ – a witness to Christ is someone who looks like Christ. This is God’s purpose for those whom He calls to Christ – He wants us to bear the moral and spiritual image of His Son. There is a great purpose and work which God is doing in His people today. He is trying to conform us to the image of His Son. But GOD must do this. We cannot. All He asks of us is that we abide in the Vine by fait h (dependency). All He asks is our unconditional devotion to Him. When John says that, “every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure,” he is not talking about mere WORKS. He is talking about a pure and unpolluted faith and devotion to God. This is the meaning of true holiness. God has given us His Spirit of Sonship, and now He wants us to grow up to look like THE SON, for we are going to be spending all eternity living with Father in the New Jerusalem with our King. God Bless…

Seeking,
I can see you are growing in Messiah because you write with an understanding that can only come from the Father. I would like to hear more of what you have been given to know.

Laurel

[Mr. Steve]

Kejonn and Gene;

I'm going to preface this post with a personal statement. I didn't believe Jesus Christ pre-existed as the Son of God for many many years. During that time I have no doubt that I was saved. So if you do not believe in Christ's pre-existence as the Son of God, my position is not that you're lost. Salvation is to those who do the will of the Father, which is in heaven according to the teachings of Christ.

Let us begin;

The New Testament is the Revelation of Jesus Christ the Son of God. He was spoken of in the Old Testament in types and shadows. He appeared in the fiery furnace or the scripture says one like unto the Son of Man, which can arguably be interpreted as Jesus Christ.

Moses according to Jesus writes about the Son of God in the Old Testament. John 5:46

Jesus prayed in a manner indicating he pre-existed with the Father. John 17:5

John the Baptist said he pre-existed him. John 1:15, 27, and 30

John also said that he that is from above is above all and that he speaketh the words of God. (he spoke the words of God, but was not God himself) John 3:30-34 John was referring to Jesus Christ every time he said “he”. John said “he” Jesus Christ spoke the words of God. He did not say that Jesus was the “Word” that came down from heaven; he said he came down from heaven and is above all. When he indicated his position as above all he indicated he is the Son by whom God made the worlds, as spoken by Paul in Hebrews. Unless you believe there is another by whom God made the worlds and is above all.

If you say that Jesus is the Word made flesh only you only partly understand, which is better than not believing at all. But a closer look reveals that a person came down from heaven. Jesus said “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, indicating he had a will prior to being sent. A word only has no will. The will of a person is a part of their soul, which comprises the mind, will, and emotions. The word is none of that. The word of God is the power of God; it is the incorruptible seed that is a part of the essence of God. The seed is the word of God. Luke 8:11 Indeed, the word is God, not the Son of God, but the word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. John 1:14

Jesus said he is the only one that has seen God the Father. John 6:46
He did not say, “will see” but has seen, past tense.

Many of the scriptures require twisting to deny Christ pre-existent son-ship. You have to rationalize that he doesn't mean he, or he just spiritually came down from heaven, he wasn't actually there prior like he said literally. This kind of reasoning is called something in the word of God-unbelief.

If you don't believe that Christ came down from heaven you are denying what is expressly taught in scripture.

Take Care

Steven

[kejonn]

To all,

I may not participate much in the various trinity and pre-existence threads for awhile. It all depends on where I am led. I am going to dedicate more time to the OT, particularly the Torah, because I am seeking to gain a greater hebraic viewpoint. I think this is the utmost of importance in understanding all 66 books of the Bible, because every single author was hebraic! They may have written in Greek (NT), but they were all Hebrews.

I know some in here and in the other threads are looking outside of scripture to the anti-nicene fathers and such, and this is good to find out more about the early mindset, but I also think this may be dangerous because the majority of the early fathers were men from Gentile nations. Therefore, their thought process would have a greater potential of being mingled with pagan ideals, much of which eventually gave rise to the trinity. To understand a Jewish Savior and a Jewish God, one needs to approach the Bible with a Jewish mindset, not pagan.

To give you some ideas of what I am talking, here is what is known of several anti-nicene fathers:

• Clement – Gentile and Roman
• Justin Martyr – Gentile and previous disciple of Socrates and Plato before coming to Christ
• Irenaeus – Gentile and Greek
• Theophilus – pagan, origin otherwise unknown
• Clement of Alexandria – likely pagan Greek, united Greek philosophy with Christian doctrine
• Tertullian – since he first used the word “trinity”, enough said

Origen – Egyptian (Egyptians' had triune gods), held some Platonic views

• Hippolytus – Greek, student of Irenaeus

One thing I find very disturbing when looking at the record of “early fathers” is that not a single one was a converted Jew. Thus, every early writing we seem to have outside of the Bible is from a converted Gentile, who likely grew up with pagan ideals. Is it any wonder that Christianity seems so far from what we see in the OT? Yeshua was a Jew, Paul was a Jew, all of the NT writers were Jews. We see that many Jews came to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Where, then, is their writings? Why do we only have those of converted Gentiles?

[IM4Truth]

Keyonn Why are you looking to men for the answers that you are looking for? And what are you looking for? Is it not more important that you Love God and your neighbor as thyself then to worry what our Forefathers did or did not do.
If you are studying prophecy like my Husband is doing you need Biblical History. But just to see where this men came from, Oh well I know I cant tell you what to d

Since you are so young I think you could be a perfect witness for Jesus. Just my thinking and I just want to encourage you to do what Jesus did. Please no offence.:D

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 29 2007,07:59)

To all, I may not participate much in the various trinity and pre-existence threads for awhile. It all depends on where I am led. I am going to dedicate more time to the OT, particularly the Torah, because I am seeking to gain a greater hebraic viewpoint. I think this is the utmost of importance in understanding all 66 books of the Bible, because every single author was hebraic! They may have written in Greek (NT), but they were all Hebrews. I know some in here and in the other threads are looking outside of scripture to the anti-nicene fathers and such, and this is good to find out more about the early mindset, but I also think this may be dangerous because the majority of the early fathers were men from Gentile nations. Therefore, their thought process would have a greater potential of being mingled with pagan ideals, much of which eventually gave rise to the trinity. To understand a Jewish Savior and a Jewish God, one needs to approach the Bible with a Jewish mindset, not pagan. To give you some ideas of what I am talking, here is what is known of several anti-nicene fathers: Clement – Gentile and Roman Justin Martyr – Gentile and previous disciple of Socrates and Plato before coming to Christ Irenaeus – Gentile and Greek Theophilus – pagan, origin otherwise unknown Clement of Alexandria – likely pagan Greek, united Greek philosophy with Christian doctrine Tertullian – since he first used the word “trinity”, enough said Origen – Egyptian (Egyptians' had triune gods), held some Platonic views Hippolytus – Greek, student of Irenaeus One thing I find very disturbing when looking at the record of “early fathers” is that not a single one was a converted Jew. Thus, every early writing we seem to have outside of the Bible is from a converted Gentile, who likely grew up with pagan ideals. Is it any wonder that Christianity seems so far from what we see in the OT? Yeshua was a Jew, Paul was a Jew, all of the NT writers were Jews. We see that many Jews came to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Where, then, is their writings? Why do we only have those of converted Gentiles?

kejonn

It has been good to have dialoge with you.

I appreciate your Spirit and hope we see you again.

My sincere prayer for you is that the Lord will continue to bless you and keep you and fill your heart with all you desire to know.

Your brother Keith

[seeking the truth]

“Judaism understood God's Word to have almost autonomous powers and substance ONCE SPOKEN; to be, in fact, 'a concrete reality, a veritable cause.'” (Richard N. Longenecker, The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity , 145.) But a word did not need to be uttered or written to be alive. A word was defined as “an articulate unit of thought, capable of intelligible utterance.” (C. H. Dodd, Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, 263.)

IAM4TRUTH ALSO pointed out …

Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: ……
This passage is one of several in the Old Testament (see Ps. 58:10, 107:42; Job 11:14) in which abstract qualities are personified.

The speech made by Wisdom in this chapter is “a lengthy self-recommendation in which (Wisdom) boasts of her power and authority and of the gifts she is able to bestow.”

Ecclesiasticus 1:1-4 All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever. The sand of the sea, and the drops of the rain, And the days of eternity who shall number? The height of the heaven and the breadth of the earth And the deep and wisdom, who shall search them out? Wisdom hath been created before all things, And the understanding of prudence from everlasting.

Wisdom as having been “created before all things,” as being “from everlasting” and as comparable to “the days of eternity.”

I came forth from the mouth of the Most High, And covered the earth as a mist. I dwelt in high places, And my throne is in the pillar of the cloud. Alone I compassed the circuit of the heaven, And walked in the depth of the abyss. (Ecclesiasticus 24:3-5)
He created me from the beginning of the world, And to the end I shall not fail. (Ecclesiasticus 24:4)
This is another speech of self-praise of the sort found in Proverbs, only this time, the speech takes place in the heavenly court — a place where only God would offer self-praise. Wisdom says of herself: “I came forth from the mouth of the Most High” (the “Word” of God) and “my throne was in the pillar of the cloud” — an allusion to the Old Testament sign of the divine presence. Wisdom also says that it has “encircled the vault of heaven, and walked in the depths of the abyss…ruled over the waves of the sea and over all the earth, and over every people and nation.”

(Isa. 40:13), says that God had no advisor in his work of creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor.

Jesus identified himself with Wisdom….

Matthew 11:16-19//Luke 7:31-2 To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: “'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.'”For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon. 'The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”' But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

Proverbs 1:24-28 Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: “How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you. But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you– when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. “Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.

Matthew 12:42//Luke 11:31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

If it is true that Jesus made a claim that something greater than Solomon was present in and through his ministry, one must ask what it could be…Surely the most straightforward answer would be that Wisdom had come IN PERSON.

Matthew 23:34//Luke 11:49 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city… Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute…

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The prologue to John's gospel makes a precise identification of Christ with Wisdom, describing the Logos' Christological role (1:3), its role as the ground of human knowledge (1:9) and as the mediator of special revelation (1:14) — the three roles of the pre-existent Logos/Wisdom. In calling Jesus God's Logos, John was affirming Jesus' eternality and ontological oneness with the Father by connecting him with the Wisdom tradition.

Now consider these parallels with John's prologue and the Wisdom literature:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

CR: Wisdom of Solomon 9:9 With you (God) is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

CR: Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
Wisdom of Solomon 16:26 On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. So that your children, whom you loved, O Lord, might learn that it is not the production of crops that feeds humankind but that your word sustains those who trust in you.
John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Wisdom of Solomon 16:18 And love of Wisdom is the keeping of her laws, and giving heed to her laws is assurance of immortality.

The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1)
Wisdom was in the beginning (Prov. 8:22-23)

The Word was with God (John 1:1)
Wisdom was with God (Prov. 8:30, Sir. 1:1, Wis. 9:4)

The Word was cocreator (John 1:1-3)
Wisdom was cocreator (Prov. 3:19, 8:25; Is. 7:21, 9:1-2)

The Word provides light (John 1:4, 9)
Wisdom provides light (Prov. 8:22)

Christ is the bread of life (John 6:35)
Wisdom is the bread or substance of life (Prov. 9:5)

Christ is the door of the sheep and the good shepherd (John 10:7, 11, 14)
Wisdom is the door and the good shepherd (Prov. 8:34-5)

Christ is life (John 11:25)
Wisdom brings life (Prov. 3:16, 8:35, 9:11)

Christ is the way to truth (John 14:6)
Wisdom is the way (Prov. 3:17, 8:32-34)

Wisdom existed before all things….
1 Corinthians 2:7: …wisdom that God predestined before the ages….

1 Corinthians 2:9: …which God has prepared for those who love him.

[Wisdom] has built an eternal foundation among men….

Colossians 1:15-18
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
This passage is full of allusions to the Wisdom literature. Note the following parallels:

Colossians 1:15a He is the image of the invisible God…
Wisdom of Solomon 7:26 (Wisdom is) a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
Colossians 1:15b …the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16a …by him all things were created..
Wisdom of Solomon 1:14 “for he created all things that they might exist”

Colossians 1:17b He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Wisdom of Solomon 1:7 …that which holds all things together knows what is said…

Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, though universal in scope, by God's decree rests in Jerusalem, and is regarded as having the role of the priesthood: “In the holy tabernacle I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion.” (24:10) Compare this proclamation with what is found in the Book of Hebrews chapters 3-10 describing Christ as our “high priest” ministering at a heavenly tabernacle.

I Hope this help..I got this from The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity…God bless

[chipwhite]

Hello all, I have been reading in the shadows and have been thouroughly enjoying the conversations. It is so much easier to sit and listen than to jump in and start debating with guys like kejonn and worshipping jesus but I praise God that there are people out there searching the scriptures so fervently and sharing it. When I first was told about this website from a friend I was in awe at the level of scriptural debate that I was witnessing. I knew immediately I was outclassed and to articulate what I believed was not in my ability at that moment. Although I have been reading here I have been studying alot on my own and praying quiet a bit then studying some more etc.etc. For a while I even started doubting what I believed which was a good thing. Now I am still nowhere near the bible college scholarly type like others on this site seem to be ( not a slam a compliment) But I appreciate the prod to dig deeper into what the word says then the patience to wait on the Holy Spirit to reveal it to me.
Now with the introduction out of the way I will cautiously wade back into the debate.:D

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