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Mr. Steve,
Actually, I'm rather positive about what I believe about the “Godhead” (only found in versions such as the KJV). The only thing I'm still working through is Christ's “pre-existence”.
As far as other translations, they are all available either via e-sword or blueletter.org. I typically stick with NASB, but I will use others to show that one may not be as clear as first believed. So its usually NASB, KJV, and ESV.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Sep. 26 2007,09:03) WJ; You missed the entire essence of my post, which you usually do.
If you had ears to hear, this is what you should have heard. The teaching that Jesus is God tends to cause people to believe that Jesus did the works he did because he was God. Even though the fullness of God does dwells in Christ, Jesus said the works that he did would also be done by those who believe, and greater works because he was going to the Father.
How you could hear me say, no man can follow God unless they follow Jesus who is a man, is express evidence that you perceive what you want to see. Your inference then becomes an argument that those in the old testament could not follow God because he was God. It's easy to sense the anymosity inside you. You're just crying out to hear me say that Christ was just a man. Why? I don't know. Probably, so you can go back to your trinity people and declare that I believe that Christ is no more than just a man and long live the trinity. WJ, hear this, Christ is the Son of God, not God. I know how much you cringe at that statement because it rattles your love of the trinity heresy, but it's true. Heresy is a false doctrine. It doesn't necessarily mean that the people that believe are bad or realize it's heresy. There are some very good Christians that believe in the trinity heresy. I believe God loves them, even though they inadvertently deny the sonship of Christ by stating he is eternally co-existent with the Father.
With respect to following God, Jesus made it clear that no man comes to the Father except by him. I follow God through his Son Jesus Christ. The instructions for following Christ are found in the scriptures. I strong suggest the gospel of John for you. Jesus said follow me and I will make you to become fishers of men. Therefore, I follow Christ because God sent his Son Jesus into the world and the Father said “Hear ye him”. I should also mention that he said Jesus was his Son, in whom he was well pleased. In case you didn't perceive that truth, Jesus pleases the Father.
But by your inference, a twist is necessary because if Jesus is God then this whole truth of Christ pleasing God becomes is akin to saying God pleases God, which in any language or tongue would be craziness. Which brings up a very long series of questions, none of which you can answer without perverting the scriptures.
If Jesus is God, which you declare, how is it that Jesus worships God? Does God worship himself? Does he obey himself? Does he send himself? Does God pray to himself? Does God live by every word that proceedeth out of his own mouth of God? Isn't God self-existent? If Christ is God, why does he live by God the Father? If he is God, wouldn't he just live without being dependent on another God? Why does Jesus refer to the Father as his God, if he is God? Is Christ a liar? The trinity actually makes Christ a liar, but it is unintentional, don't get upset.
WJ, Jesus is the express image of God. Does that make him the Father? When Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father, did that make Jesus the Father, or did they see the express image of the Father? I hope that helps.
Is taking the place of the Father or the Spirit an issue before us? It's not. I hope that helps, too.
Again, I follow God through Jesus Christ and doing what he taught, which was the will of the Father which is in heaven.
You make Jesus God and you accuse me of making Christ just a man. You must have a real distaste for believing that Christ is the Son of God.
By the way, I went on the website that you suggested for understanding what you believe. After viewing it, I sent them a list of questions. I'll bet you can guess what they were. You can also bet they refused to answer.
The real reason you don't like to respond to me WJ is because you are baffled by me. It's not actually me, it's the word of God, which you believe you understand. I believe you are sincere, but sincerely wrong. I do give you partial credit for your sincerity. (just kidding WJ, don't get all worked up)
I believe that many years of wrong doctrine can take many years to overcome.
What I would suggest for you is to go over some of the questions that I've posted to you and honestly discuss them. Try to break down the elements of what you believe and see if every element is supported by scripture. Start with what Christ taught with respect to every verse that had to do with his relationship with the Father.
The website you referred me to makes a substantial error in attempting to prove Jesus is God. They suggest showing people in Isaiah where the scripture says that God is the first and the last. Then show them Revelation where Jesus says he's the beginning and the end. Then conclude both are the same God. Do you see anything in that argument that is missing? It's not based on what Jesus said in the gospels. It contradicts what Christ taught. Jesus was completely dependent on God. Revelation is the fulfillment of the glorification of God in Christ, but he is still the Son of God. That takes some knowledge of the scriptures to understand, but you can see how easily it is to error when you don't start with what Jesus taught and move on from there.
My opinion is that you won't see the scriptures clearly with respect to the issues we have discussed until you disassociate yourself with those who are holding you back. Peer pressure is just to great in most cases.
However, what you'll probably do is ignore my post and write a 10,000 word essay to Kejonn. Have fun arguing whatever point you're trying to debate. The posts are so long and hard to follow I've given up on most of them half way through. I hope you type fast.
Take Care
Steven
Good post.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 27 2007,07:27) Mr. Steve, Actually, I'm rather positive about what I believe about the “Godhead” (only found in versions such as the KJV). The only thing I'm still working through is Christ's “pre-existence”.
I would like to study that too.I believe that he did preexist, but I am open to letting scripture change my mind. As it stands for me now, there seem to be quite a a lot of scriptures that say that he did preexist. Scriptures that have been translated of course and for that reason I would like to delve deeper.
One that sticks out was when Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
So I might see you in the “Preexistence” over the next few weeks/months.
Thanks to all for the encouragement, but glory and praise to the Father for working in us!
Jesus said the law was until John the Baptist. He said now the Kingdom of God has come unto us. We are not made just or holy or righteous by the civil and cerimonial rules and regulations of the law. We now become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Now as we walk by FAITH in Christ we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law by our new nature in Christ.
Faith without works is 100% dead. Works without Faith is also useless. The Bible is perfectly clear that if you have no FAITH you have no salvation, and a workless believer might just as well believe in no God at all ALSO, for their faith is in vain. “And by works faith is made perfect.” Please read James 1:22-25, 2:14-26. Works is the Command, if you do no works & bear no fruit, you're disobedient.
Everywhere in scripture it reads that every person is rewarded according to their works which they have done.
Not all who say, Lord, Lord, will enter into heaven, but only them who DO THE WILL of my Father in heaven. If you bear no good fruit, then you will be accursed, gathered as a withered branch and cast into the furnace of fire.
Noah had faith and believed God, but his faith would have been dead, unless he obeyed and worked to build the ark. Lot had faith, but his faith would have been worthless, unless he actually fled Sodom and Amorah. Abraham had faith, but it would have been nothing unless he left his home to serve the one God. Some O.T. examples: James 2:20-26.
Lip servers praise God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him, for if the lip server truly loved the Lord, then the lip server would keep his commandments and serve him by doing the works of Christ. The tree without fruit is accursed, dried up from the roots and withered, and they are gathered and thrown into the fire.
Ephesians 2:8-10. We do good works because we are saved not to BECOME saved.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, James 2:18″ I will show you my faith by my works.”
You see Faith is working with your works, and as a result of the works, FAITH is perfected. James2:22
1Cor.3:12-15 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials-gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay or starw.
13: But on the judgement day, fire will REVEAL what kind of WORK each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will RECIEVE a reward 15: But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone escaping through a wall of flames.Real Christians DO the works of Christ. Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from wrong. Be perfect, be righteous, be good and bear good fruit, be obedient, sin not, be clean, be pure, be holy, lie not, bless and curse not, love God completely, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies, share your faith, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the shut-ins and prisoners and the infirmed, and be a father to the fatherless, a friend to the friendless, a helper to the helpless. Amen
T8;
That's quite coincidental. I just posted a two-pager (which is long for me) on the pre-existence thread. Thank you for reading my posts. It's so very encouraging to know that what I believe God is showing is also confirmed by others or at least given consideration. God bless you guys.
To Kejonn; I wasn't being insincere earlier when I thanked you for the clarification. I noticed right after that all my threads collapsed so I thought oh no, he's ticked. Indeed, thank you for all you do. I read as many of your posts as I can reasonably.
Take Care
Steven
Seeking the Truth;
God bless you for your contribution of truth. It's very refreshing.
Take care
Steven
mr Steve
you say…
Quote The difference between Kejonn and me with respect to responding to you is that Kejonn admittedly isn't sure what he believes yet with respect to the Godhead. He posted that just last week. So the tone of what he posts will naturally be much different than mine. The difference is I think the attitude that Trinitarians are of the antichrist.
Its not the tone, to me it is fine if one disagrees with someone and speaks firmly on behalf of what they believe as true.
Its words like “You are blind and are of the antichrist”. Also the condescension and patronizing and implications that someone is stupid because they dont see scriptures as you do.
Also to me it seems a little odd that Trinitarians are attacked and called “Blind and of the Whore” etc, when there is obvious teachings by others like the Unitarians here that dont believe Jesus preexisted.
But they get a pass from those like yourself who believe that if you dont believe Jesus came in the flesh, (which I do BTW), then you are of the antichrist. Yet you call me antichrist.
You say…
Quote
You seem to enjoy accusing others of not believing in the same Jesus as you, but if someone hints that you yourself might be in error, then you make accusations of pride and condescension towards youNo accusations just seems to be a fact wouldnt you agree.
I believe Jesus who is the Son of God is also God.
Just like you have a human Father and you are two different persons yet you are both 100% human.
You dont believe Jesus is God. So we believe in different Jesus's.
But you accuse me of modalism that Jesus and the Father are the same. And you also accuse Trinitarians of not believing in the Son of God. By making statements like this…
Quote Any doctrine that holds that Christ was God contradicts what Christ taught and what all the on point scriptures identify Christ as being – the Son of God. Furthermore, to hold that Christ is God in a denial that he is the Son of God, which is a requisite belief for eternal life. Hence, any doctrine that does not hold that Christ was at some point in time begotten by God is anti-christ since it denies that Christ is the Son of God. So your implication here is one who believes that Jesus is God in the flesh cannot be saved. Yet have you ever seen a Trinitarian deny Jesus as being the Son?
This is what the scriptures say…
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Have you ever heard a Trinitarian not confess Jesus with their mouth and believe that God raised him from the dead?.
Now notice Paul didnt say confess Jesus as the Son of God.
But your inference is if they dont believe in Jesus as being the Son of God the way you do then he is antichrist and cant be saved. You should not be so quick to write off or judge the hearts of those who dont agree or believe like you do.
You apparently dont know what a Trinitarian believes by statements like this…
Quote For instance, when I state that the trinity denies the son-ship of Christ you find that very arrogant, but it's not actually. If you believe that Christ is eternal then you believe that he was never begotten by God because he always was. First of all this statement is untrue. The Trinity does not deny Jesus as the Son of God. This is your opinion. Secondly you have no scriptural basis to say Christ had a beginning. There is no scripture that says Jesus was born somewhere back in eternity. You only have inference and unambiguous scripture.
I have asked you to show me where the scriiptures say Jesus had a beginning from eternity. You have not provided any, you only accuse Trinitarians of denying his eternal Sonship by not agreeing with you on something you have given no scriptural support for.
You say…
Quote
If I add, “It's so easy a cave man could understand it”, then that might be unnecessary but it's only arrogant if you want to argue it. To others, it's just having fun in the debate, even entertaining to those who read our posts. How can that be so wrong?Its not. But that does not compare to your statements above which implies someone is not saved or dosnt know Jesus, does it?
You say…
Quote
From my perspective, you should lighten up, but that's entirely your decision. We're certainly not going to change each other's personality and should have no agenda to do so.I am not sure what you mean by lighten up except maybe I should not be defensive of my faith when it is attacked.
This is serious buisness here because there are souls involved. Many are watching this forum who may never respond. some may not respond because maybe they are not as versed as you in scripture, and they would like to respond but fear they will be attacked because they dont agree with you.
Sure we can have fun, just like two kids in a playground, but if we throw stones to hurt then that is no fun.
You say…
Quote Finally, if you want to debate with me, the rule is, the scriptures only and a couple of translations we can agree on. I've never heard of some of the translations that you and Kejonn reference. Take care
Steven
Cool. I am not sure about the translations deal, but we can PM one another and see if we can work out some details.
Blessings
BTW. I am working on a response to kejonns post, but it will take a little time. Then maybe we can start.
WJ,
You're still working on my post? Your response is gonna be another novelette, eh?
To all others,
Just wanted folks to know that I will likely let WJ's next response to me be the last communication concerning the Trinity for a bit. We have gained a mutual respect for each other so I will let his next responses be what they are. I WILL read them of course, and may find I need to respond to a point or two, but the odds are low. In the end, we both realize that we are at a point where we have to let God show us the path.
That does not mean I will not debate others, in this thread or others, but WJ and I will meet each other on other matters. Hopefully we'll encounter some we can agree on!
Fair enough kejonn.
There comes a time when you exhaust all possibilities with others and it is good that you remain open to letting God's Spirit lead you into all truth. This will help the potter to shape you in his image.
I had a vision of these times about 20 years ago, and one of the messages was to not chase after those who would divert us from our quest. The quest is to restore truthful understanding to the Church regarding the elementary teachings of Christ and the foundational doctrines. This light will lead to the darkness of men's creeds to dispel from many. It will pull down many a stronghold of the enemy and enable believers to build on the true foundation which cannot be overcome.
It is easy to argue forever with those who disagree with some elementary teachings, but we need to move onto the other things too. We should never be a one trick pony.
God can use us in a multitude of ways and beyond anything we can envisage.
That is why we need to be careful how we spend our time. One of the devices of the Antichrist is to wear out the saints. I know that I put a cap on exposing false teaching and if I were to answer all that was asked of me by some members here, then I would have to devote all my time in answering them and that would only prove that I was not being led by God's Spirit.
We also have many other things to do as God leads. But we need to be careful that we do not become too busy for God.
One last thing I would like to share with you all before I say Good night.
Concerning my opinion in the Trinity, I hope who ever is seeking the truth will truly take these scriptures and pray over it and hope that it will soften your heart so God can give you more wisdom in understanding of his true Nature.
I know we are in different levels of stages in our walk with God. Some might still be near the “GATE” , some might be standing by the “Lampstand” or maybe the “Golden alter of the insence”
Bu t where ever we might be Spiritually , we must keep walking forward until we are in the presence of our LORD'S glory.Well here are the scriptures that I believe shows clearly how God and Jesus are 2 different people…
Rev 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name BEFORE MY FATHER and before HIS angels.
I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Compare Mt 10:32 Lu 12:8.
Rev.3:12 ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will WRITE on him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of MY GOD, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, AND My new name.
From this verse there is no excuse to say That Father and Christ Jesus are one in the same person. 2 NAMES, 1 City, no mentioned of the Holy Spirit's for it is not a person.
21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on MY THRONE as I also OVERCAME and SAT DOWN with my Father on HIS THRONE. 2 THRONES WHY?
Because God gave His Son A KINGDOM.
Daniel's vision of God giving a kingdom to his Son.
Daniel 2:44
“At the time of those kings, the God of heaven WILL ESTABLISH A KINGDOM that will never be destroyed. No other people will be permitted to rule it. It will smash all the other kingdoms and put an end to them. But it will be established forever.
We are the Saints, Jesus Christ is the Highest One, The Acient of Days is God himself. Daniel 7:27
Daniel 7:13
“I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man {Jesus} was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days {God} And was presented before Him.
14) “And to Him{JESUS} was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Scriptures are so clear if you truly are seeking God. Truth is in the bible! I am so glad I can share this with you all.
Daniel 2:
20:Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever, For wisdom and power belong to Him.
22:It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things; He knows what is in the darkness, And the light dwells with Him.
23:To You, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise, For You have given me wisdom and power; Even now You have made known to me what we requested of You, For You have made known to us the king's matter.
T8, Kejonn,Mr.Steve, Seeking truth, Im4truth > i agree we have beat the Trinity horse to death. Thats all were doing now is going around and around. But I do believe this subject will become a very great force in the future as more and more people God leads to see the trinity as the BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD..I believe God is using us in this as a spark that will grow into an inferno in time. Bless you all and thanks for all your posts……gene
Thanks Gene.
I agree. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one. If we are his body, then that mission continues.
I also think that there are other things too, even though this one is very important, especially in this time.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 27 2007,13:27) WJ, You're still working on my post? Your response is gonna be another novelette, eh?
To all others,
Just wanted folks to know that I will likely let WJ's next response to me be the last communication concerning the Trinity for a bit. We have gained a mutual respect for each other so I will let his next responses be what they are. I WILL read them of course, and may find I need to respond to a point or two, but the odds are low. In the end, we both realize that we are at a point where we have to let God show us the path.
That does not mean I will not debate others, in this thread or others, but WJ and I will meet each other on other matters. Hopefully we'll encounter some we can agree on!
kejonnYep I am still working on it.
Weekends are not to good for me. Actually, I havnt spent much time on it because of an addition “12X25” that I am building on my house. So I am rather tired at night.
But I will try to be short and sweet.
Blessings
seeking the truth
You say…
Quote
From this verse there is no excuse to say That Father and Christ Jesus are one in the same person. 2 NAMES, 1 City, no mentioned of the Holy Spirit's for it is not a person.This is an excellent example of misrepresentation and not understanding the concept of the trinity.
Trinitarians are not “modalist”.
W.J. The Trinity Doctrine/Dogma Exposed
I've always had difficulty with the “trinity” doctrine and concept. Even after twenty years of being a born again Christian, I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Other Christians claimed they had an understanding of it but they admitted it was very difficult to articulate.
Robert Ingersoll makes the following comments in Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67:
Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third.
Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both.
The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten–just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.
The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two.
So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.
Christians are faced with a dilemma. The Bible says in the Old Testament, “I, even I, am the Lord; and besides me there is no savior” (Isa. 43:11). “Salvation belongeth unto the Lord . . .” (Psalms 3:8. “For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour . . .” (Isaiah 43:3). According to the Old Testament, only God can be the Savior. In order for Jesus Christ to be the Savior, he must also be God.
Trinity advocates use:“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30);
“. . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 17:22);
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God” (John 1″1);
“. . . that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me and I in Him”
“. . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . .” (John 14:9)
“. . .Holy Father keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”John 17:11
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” Colossians 3:8,9.
The Bible has many more verses denying the Trinity than it has confirming it:
“Why callest me good? There is none good but one, that is God” (Matthew 19:17)
“. . .for my Father is greater than I. . .” (John 14:28)
“My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” (John 7:16)
“O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Matthew 26:39)
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
“Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God” (Peter 3:22)
There are, of course, more scriptures. The passages quoted are a representative of the opposing concepts.
Here is the dilemma. Christians know that in order for Jesus to be the savior of mankind, he must also be God. The bible says so. If he is not God, then he cannot be the savior. His death would be meaningless. So Christians have invented the Trinity to explain Christ's divinity. He is man. He is God. He is both. He must be in order to be the savior. Unfortunately, he is ambivalent at best. Sometimes he claims to be one with God. Sometimes he admits God knows things which he doesn't know and does things which he cannot do. Christians go to nearly any length to prove the Trinity including the declaration that its a “mystery” and we “just don't have the mind to understand it”. Is the bible the perfect, inerrant word of God? The Christian created Trinity doctrine and the contradictions which must accompany the doctrine sound a resounding “No”! So how did the Trinity doctrine/dogma come into existence?
The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.
As many Christians know, the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible. It doesn't because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an 'accepted' doctrine of the church.
CONSTANTINE – THE TRINITY PROCESS BEGINS
Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD), Constantine the Great, was the son of Emperor Constantius I. When his father died in 306 AD, Constantine became emperor of Britain, Gaul (now France), and Spain. Gradually he gained control of the entire Roman empire.Theological differences regarding Jesus Christ began to manifest in Constantine's empire when two major opponents surfaced and debated whether Christ was a created being (Arius doctrine) or not created but rather coequal and coeternal to God his father (Athanasius doctrine).
The theological warfare between the Arius and Athanasius doctrinal camps became intense. Constantine realized that the his empire was being threatened by the doctrinal rift. Constantine began to pressure the church to come to terms with its differences before the results became disastrous to his empire. Finally the emperor called a council at Nicea in 325 AD to resolve the dispute.
Only a fraction of existing bishops, 318, attended. This equated to about 18% of all the bishops in the empire. Of the 318, approximately 10 were from the Western part of Constantine's empire, making the voting lopsided at best. The emperor manipulated, coerced and threatened the council to be sure it voted for what he believed rather than an actual consensus of the bishops.
The present day Christian church touts Constantine as the first Christian emperor, however, his 'Christianity' was politically motivated. Whether he personally accepted Christian doctrine is highly doubtful. He had one of his sons murdered in addition to a nephew, his brother in law and possibly one of his wives. He continued to retain his title of high priest in a pagan religion until his death. He was not baptized until he was on his deathbed.
THE FIRST TWO THIRDS OF THE TRINITY – THE NICAEAN CREED
The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be “one substance” with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.
The Nicaean Creed read as follows:
I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom a
ll things were made. . .Even with the adoption of the Nicaean Creed, problems continued and in a few years, the Arian faction began to regain control. They became so powerful that Constantine restored them and denounced the Athanasius group.
Arius's exile was ended along with the bishops who sided with him. It was now Athanasius who would be banished.
When Constantine died (after being baptized by an Arian Bishop), his son reinstated the Arian philosophy and bishops and condemned the Athanasius group.
In the following years the political foes continue to struggle and finally the Arians misused their power and were overthrown. The religious/political controversy caused widespread bloodshed and killing. In 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius (a Trinitarian) convened a council in Constantinople. Only Trinitarian bishops were invited to attend. 150 bishops attended and voted to alter the Nicene creed to include the Holy Spirit as a part of the Godhead. The Trinity doctrine was now official for both the church and the state.
Dissident bishops were expelled from the church, and excommunicated.
THE ATHANASIUS CREED COMPLETES THE TRIUNE GODHEAD
The Athanasius (Trinitarian) Creed was finally established in (probably) the 5th century. It was not written by Athanasius but adopted his name. It stated in part:“We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”
By the 9th century the creed was established in Spain, France and Germany. It had taken centuries from the time of Christ for the trinity doctrine to catch on. Government and church politics were the reasons the trinity came into existence and became church orthodoxy.As you have seen, the Trinitarian doctrine came from deceit, politics, a pagan emperor and warring factions who brought about death and bloodshed.
THE CHRISTIAN TRINITY – ONE MORE IN THE PARADE OF TRINITIES
Why the original clamor to elevate Jesus and the holy spirit to positions equal to the Christian/Judaeo God? Simply, the pagan world was quite used to having “three gods” or “trinities” as their deities. The trinity satisfied the majority of Christians who had come from pagan backgrounds. Christianity didn't get rid of the pagan trinities, it adopted them as it did so many other pagan traditions.OTHER TRINITIES
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Hinduism embraced the triune godhead of Brahma, the god of creation ; Vishnu the god of maintenance and Siva the god of destruction. One of Egypt's many trinities was Horus, Isis and Osiris.The founders of the early Christian church had no idea that the Trinity concept would evolve, be voted upon by politicians, forced by emperors and eventually become an integral part of Christianity such as we have it today. Is it any wonder that its “difficult” to explain?
Is there one Christian God or Three In One? The majority of Christian churches hold to the Trinity doctrine but there are still Christian church holdouts who reject the teaching. We now enjoy the freedom to believe either doctrine but at risk of ridicule if we choose non-Trinitarian beliefs.
Just like at Burger King, “you can have it your way”.
There are other scriptures like Ephesians 4:4-6 that shows that the trinity could not be right. Jesus said that the Father is greater then He.
Deut. 4:35
Deut.6:4
I believe for me that adds to my understanding of the falsehood of the trinity doctrine. Prove all things.I think I have a Post somewhere about “Who is God.”
W.J. if you really want to know the truth you have to have an open mind. No offence, Brother. Love to all.Peace and Love Mrs.:D
WJ;
So Jesus is God because he is the Son of God. According to your logic you are also the person you are born from. This sounds like reincarnation while the other person is still living. This is heresy at its best.
What you are stating is that God did not have a Son in the same manner as we have sons, God just took on the form of a man himself and called him a son. This is seemingly true and you can actually support this belief with scriptures like, “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” Even Paul said “the second Adam is the Lord from heaven.” Jesus in Revelation states, “he is the beginning and the end.” It begins to sound as if Christ was actually just God in the flesh. Now lets see what Jesus says in the gospels.
Jesus said, As I live by my Father, even he that eateth me shall live by me. John 6:57 Christ states he lives by the Father. If Christ was merely a manifestation of God in the flesh, this claim would not be true because God is self-existent and is not dependent on anyone, not even Jesus.
When we read the scriptures (and I like the gospel of John for this purpose) we see Christ depicting an actual father and son relationship. Christ talks of all that God has done.
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. John 3:16 God didn't come and give himself. That's what you're teaching. Jesus is God, remember.
John 3:17 For God sent not himself or his Son into the world to condemn the world… Now by your logic if Christ is the Son of God and God, then the scriptures could be read either way. Here's the question, how come the scriptures are not written both ways?
I could take you through verse after verse and show you that Christ did not depict himself as God. If you need more, I will, but can easily do it yourself.
But you posed another question which I've answered before that I will address again. You said that I cannot show you any scriptures that state that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God. For an exhaustive answer, please see the pre-existence thread. I posted a two page essay on this issue on September 27, 2007, New Zealand time, (I'm nineteen hours behind on the west coast in the USA).
But briefly, lets look at John the Baptists and what he said. He said that he ( the Father) spoke to me and said that the one you see the spirit descend upon this is he which baptises with the Holy Ghost. Then he said that he was preferred before him because he was before him. So John the Baptist said that God told him that Jesus Christ existed before him (John). Of course, Jesus himself said that he (Jesus) existed before Abraham. So there's two scriptures that state Christ pre-existed as the Son of God. If you believe the he does not mean Son of God, then you are teaching that Christ changed. Hebrews 13:8 For instance, he was the Word, now he's the Son. No, the Word is God. You, yourself have pointed that out many times.
Christ also said he was going back to where he was before. He said he was with the Father in heaven. He came down from heaven. The bread of God is he (Jesus) who came down from heaven. He said he (Jesus) had glory with the Father before the world was. Therefore, Christ was the Son of God before the world was. If he was only the Word before the world was he could not make the claim of being a person. The Word is God, not the Son of God.
I submit to you that every time Jesus refers to his Father he makes the inherent declaration he is the Son of God. Moreover, every time in doing so, he declares that he had a beginning. Like you said yourself, sons are born.
Considering the aforementioned, why would you want to debate me? No reasonable person looking at your posts and mine would suggest for you to debate me. That's my opinion. You will probably call me arrogant, but that's my position with respect to this topic only. There may be other topics which you could enlighten me, but this is obviously not one of them. God may have given you marvelous truths in other areas, but my opinion is you need to rest on the Godhead debates and really ask God to help you understand without man's influence. Sit quietly on the subject by yourself so other people stop influencing you. You have intelligence, but sometimes God causes certain truths to be hidden from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto babes. God in his sovereignty is somehow glorified through it all.
Take Care
Steven
Hello WJ,
I know Trinatarians are not “modalist”.
Modalism states: God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the SAME TIME, only one after another. This to me is ludicrous, because it's perverted, it totally goes against the word of God. Therefore in my opinon this is wrong.
I think I know enough about the Doctrine of Trinity to say it is also wrong (in my opinion)
It might sound perfectly fine at the beginning because it is true based on solid scriptures, but then it gets a bit messy and confusing. It lacks in decisiveness it's irresolute.
For instance:
“The Father is not the same person as the Son” (True);
“the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit” (right, because it's God's Spirit);
“and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father.” (what does this mean to you? Do you believe the Spirit is Seperate from God?)
“They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; ” ( I believe there are only 2 beings not 3, because the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that makes Jesus and the Father One in purpose and will. Therefore it is not a being but the power of God which also works IN us so we can grow in holiness and die in our flesh and live for God and have the SAME purpose and will..this is how we become ONE WITH the Father and Christ Jesus..)
“They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God”.
( I don't believe The Father and the Son are coeternal, coequal, and co powerful. Because many times Jesus said the Father is greater then him, and Paul said he will be under the power or authority of his Father after he fulfills his Father's purpose because they are in perfect unity as we also will be after Jesus' second comming.)
Each has a will, loves, and says “I”, and “You” when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God.
The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God.This makes my head spin, it's uncomprehensible, and some even call it a “mystery”. Yet, the true God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33).
Also, in 2Timothy 1:7, “For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND.”
If the Holy Spirit yields the quality of sound-mindedness in a Christian, then insanity—to “lose his mind”—could not possibly result from understanding who and what God is and the role of the Holy Spirit.
Have a blessed day WJ…
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