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And so it is, this thread just drags on aimlessly.
Yes Gene Y'shua is the Word, and yes Gene you are correct in saying the Word came from the Father.
Yes Gene you are correct when you qoute that “unless the Father draw Him.
And so it is the point, the pinnacle, the goal of all mankind, to become one with their Creator, to know Him.
Thus our Father and His Son have a oneness like that. They are a perfect example of “what it means to be one.”
The Son esteems the Father and the Father esteems the Son. A perfest unit.
Laurel
ps. Mrs. I didn't read all you post. I refuse to “argue” for the sake of arguing.
Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 22 2007,17:28) And so it is, this thread just drags on aimlessly.
I would agree with you to some point on this. But, to be blunt, if you truly feel this way, then why add to it?Kejonn……> I know this topic has gone on for a long time, but in my opinion it's the most important topic we can talk about, the docrtine of the trinity has mislead millions and millions of people sence 325 AD and is without a dought the biggest LIE ever told, it damages a persons relationship with their creator. Please don't loose heart you are doing the very work of God by using the very logic God has given you as well as t8 and Mr. Steve and others. There are a lot of people that are viewing this debate and are beginning to question the false teachings of the trinity doctrine. And remember Satan dosen't care about people who are already decieved, he will use people to attack the truth given on this false teaching . He doesn't want the LIE about the trinity to be exposed so please don't get discouraged in the end your reward will be great………peace and love brother……….gene
Gen This is what I believe. It is good to say something when we see someone going the wrong path, but to keep it up, is another thing. First the Father has to do the calling. If they have not seen it yet, God does not want them to see it. In do time they all will, if not now, then in the millenium. I have found that you can talk to them until your blue in the face, if God doesn't remove the veil, He or She will not see. No offence to anybody. O.K. Love you all.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 22 2007,03:29) t8 The scriputers do not say “NO ONE” has seen God.
It says “No One” has seen the Father”.
Look again…
Jn 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].The Father.
1 Jn 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.Context is the Father.
Jn 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
WJ.Your argument certainly does fall down here as kejonn correctly points out.
It actually does say that “No man hath seen God”, and yet you say it doesn't.
If you understood the truth that the Father is the one true God, then you wouldn't have to contend with your contradiction. But as long as you believe that Jesus is Yahweh, you cannot accept what is written regarding God being invisible and the fact that no one can see him.
Your belief requires you to deny something that is blatantly obvious to anyone of any intellect, ie.,
It is written “no man hath seen God”.
This you deny, by reason of your tradition.
Therefore you have denied what is written. You have chosen the philosophy of men over the revelation of God.
Scripture has corrected you. But are you willing to humble yourself and admit it, and then change?
Or will continue like the alcoholic who says “I don't have a drinking problem”.
You first need to admit that you are wrong. It requires humility and then you need the will to repent.
3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”
from the verse above, is the Holy Spirit and the mentioned GOD only one?
Jhen Tux……> the Holy Spirit is God's presence The Holy Spirit does not have a will of it's own it only does Gods will. If you have the Holy Spirit in you, God is in you.remember Jesus said God is a spirit ,and that Spirit is Holy and is God's presence in you. The trinity teaches that the Holy Spirit is a seperate God. But the holy spirit is part of the ONE and ONLY GOD Himself. peace to you …..gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 22 2007,10:09) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2007,22:13) No. I have also not seen an angel either. In fact I haven't even seen the queen of England or the Paul who wrote much of the NT. Yet they are all visible beings. Angels are usually hidden from the world for good reason, the Queen has never invited me over for a cup of tea, and Paul lived in a different generation to mine.
But no man has seen God and can ever see God.
Yet men have seen Jesus and I will see him as he is one day too. In fact I also hope to meet Paul too, and I will also see and meet angels.
Can't wait.
duh….Angels, the Queen and Paul are not said to be in the midst of us when we gather together in prayer. So this is not a sound counter-argument. Yeshua promised he would be there when we gather but is almost never seen, so logic should tell you that He is in fact invisible to us…..moreover many times in the OT YHWH is described as being visible (notably Gen 17-18)….which leaves the argument you were making (Yeshua cannot be God because He is visible) in tatters…..
Dah dah!Colossians 2:5
For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.I can only assume that Paul is an invisible being then.
I think this one just untattered.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 24 2007,14:40) Jhen Tux……> the Holy Spirit is God's presence The Holy Spirit does not have a will of it's own it only does Gods will. If you have the Holy Spirit in you, God is in you.remember Jesus said God is a spirit ,and that Spirit is Holy and is God's presence in you. The trinity teaches that the Holy Spirit is a seperate God. But the holy spirit is part of the ONE and ONLY GOD Himself. peace to you …..gene
oh thanks for that good explanation.
Jhentux;
Jesus said when he the spirit of truth is come he will not speak of “himself”, but will take of what Christ has been given to him from the Father and reveal it unto you.
Steven
Mr. Steve…….WhAT Jesus said is “How be it when the Spirit comes (IT) will not speak of it own, but what soever has be given it, it will speak. The same Spirit that was in Jesus is what is in us, and it cames from the same FAther, And is the FAther's way of teaching US, Just as it taught Jesus, and is God's presence in us as well as in Jesus, no difference, it one spirit of One GOD the Father of all. who is in all and through all Just as it says.
To;
It is amazing what we have to argue to show that he is the Son of God and not God himself.
I think of the person in Mark that came to Christ and asked him which is the great commandment in the law and Christ responded, There is “one” God and to love him with all your heart is the first commandment. The scribe replied thou hast well said, there is one God and there is none other than he. Mark 12:28-32.
The scribe had the law of Moses, did he not? They had the torah, the pentatuch, and all the other scriptures. Never will you find any one in scripture concluding that God is more than one, and beside him there is none other. This was the truth from the beginning. Christ confirmed this truth. Christ did not say “actually I'm God, too.” But this is the grand conclusion that many argue. Therefore they do greatly error not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.
Just because God said “Let us” … “in our image” does not mean the God is plural. It only means that God was not alone when he made the declaration, thereby, confirming the pre-existence of the Son of God. What's even more amazing are the Trinitarians that argue God is plural from Genesis 1 and then state that Christ was the Word only at that time, contradicting the scriptures because John said the Word was God, not the Son of God.
If a person cannot distinguish between God and his Son, how can they learn the scriptures? If foundational truths are out of plumb, house can the house be built?
Steven
to all……> the Spirit of God can be compared to a bicycle wheel, you have a center hub (GOD) and Spokes (Spirit) that goes out to every point on the wheel . God ataches to us via his Holy Spirit and relays God intentions of All who have it. Just as it say ” For God works in us to will and do his good pleasure. You see ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL……>peace brother…….gene
Mr. Steve……> your right, if a person cant learn the difference betwee Jesus and God the Father they cant truly learn. Thats why the trinity is the BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD. Your right on this brother…..gene
Gene;
Nice to hear from you. When Christ is made to be God, all of the scriptures are out of sinc. Christ referred to God many times and never included himself.
What's lost when Christ is made God is that we fail to see how he is our pattern to follow. Paul said be followers of me even as I follow Christ. The just shall live by faith. The mega truth I've seen recently is that Christ himself was walking by faith. Otherwise, how could he be our example. It is impossible to please God without faith. The Father said this is my son in whom I am well pleased. In order to please God faith must be operative.
When Jesus walked on water, he did it by faith. Peter tried and was successful for a time and began to sink. Christ said oh ye of little faith. How much less those that remained in the boat. When he calmed the seas he said where is your faith? Implying that they could have done it had they had faith. Jesus didn't say what I am doing is because I'm the Son of God. He said if you have faith as of a mustard seed, you could say unto this mountain… So the faith he walked in he wants us to walk in as well.
But when we make Jesus God, then the devil says well, he did that because he's God, you're just a man. The truth is the same power that God gave to Christ he has given to us if we only believe. The gospel magnifies faith as the remedy for whatever we need from God.
When Christ encouraged us to have faith it was because he had faith-the faith of the Son of God. (Gal. 2:20) Paul said that he lived by that faith. Christ multiplied the loaves by faith. When the disciples forgot bread and Jesus said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Herodians, they reasoned that it was because they forgot to bring bread. Christ responded by asking them if they remembered how many loaves and fish were present when he fed the multitudes. He marvelled how their hearts were hardened, which spoke of a state of unbelief. What Christ was trying to tell them was that they were to look to God for all their needs and never doubt that by faith all things would be provided. One of the primary truths in the gospel that Christ tried to convey was “have faith in God”.
Take care
Steven
Mr. Steve…..> AMEN,AMEN, and AMEN. If only more could see that brother……….Peace to you and yours…………gene
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Sep. 25 2007,10:53) Gene; Nice to hear from you. When Christ is made to be God, all of the scriptures are out of sinc. Christ referred to God many times and never included himself.
What's lost when Christ is made God is that we fail to see how he is our pattern to follow. Paul said be followers of me even as I follow Christ. The just shall live by faith. The mega truth I've seen recently is that Christ himself was walking by faith. Otherwise, how could he be our example. It is impossible to please God without faith. The Father said this is my son in whom I am well pleased. In order to please God faith must be operative.
When Jesus walked on water, he did it by faith. Peter tried and was successful for a time and began to sink. Christ said oh ye of little faith. How much less those that remained in the boat. When he calmed the seas he said where is your faith? Implying that they could have done it had they had faith. Jesus didn't say what I am doing is because I'm the Son of God. He said if you have faith as of a mustard seed, you could say unto this mountain… So the faith he walked in he wants us to walk in as well.
But when we make Jesus God, then the devil says well, he did that because he's God, you're just a man. The truth is the same power that God gave to Christ he has given to us if we only believe. The gospel magnifies faith as the remedy for whatever we need from God.
When Christ encouraged us to have faith it was because he had faith-the faith of the Son of God. (Gal. 2:20) Paul said that he lived by that faith. Christ multiplied the loaves by faith. When the disciples forgot bread and Jesus said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Herodians, they reasoned that it was because they forgot to bring bread. Christ responded by asking them if they remembered how many loaves and fish were present when he fed the multitudes. He marvelled how their hearts were hardened, which spoke of a state of unbelief. What Christ was trying to tell them was that they were to look to God for all their needs and never doubt that by faith all things would be provided. One of the primary truths in the gospel that Christ tried to convey was “have faith in God”.
Take care
Steven
mr steveYou say…
Quote
What's lost when Christ is made God is that we fail to see how he is our pattern to follow.The argument that Jesus cannot be God because if he was we could not follow him is fallacious.
What you are saying is God who cannot change for 4000 years before Jesus was known, could not be followed because he is God.
In fact here is what I hear you saying, “no man can follow God unless they follow Jesus who is only a man”.
So the children of Israel nor the Prophets or judges or patriarchs didnt follow God and could not because he was God?
Jesus is the Image of the invisible God, if you follow Jesus and your image of him is less than God, then you are not following God.
Question for you and GB.
Do you follow God? If your answer is yes, then how can you say Jesus can not be God?
If your answer is no, you follow Jesus who is the image of God, then your image of Jesus is not equal to your image of God, therefore you are following a lessor image of God.
Some would say man is the Image of God, meaning that man is equal to Jesus or the Father in likeness.
Man was created in the image\likeness of God, but can we say that to see man is to see the exact likeness of his person.
I dont think so.
Jesus is the exact representation of the person/substance of God, and by the word of his (Jesus) power all things are upheld. Heb 1:3
No man or men will ever take his place in the throne with his Father and the Spirit that proceeds from them.
Again. Do you follow God or just a man?
Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.WJ……> seeing Jesus who has GOD (IN) him is the same as seeing a Man who Has God (IN) him the only difference is the position God has given him. You seem to not understand how ONE GOD can actually exist (IN) US. and Jesus the same way. Jesus plainly said the FAther in me, he does the works. There are two presence in all who have GOD's Spirit in them, one the person themselves and the other is God in them. So why cant you see God in a person who has His Spirit in them. The Spirit produces in them and as a result it's God in them producing a work. Jesu said he could do nothing of himself. Why would he say that if He were God himself. It's a very simple concept it goes like this God in all and through all. Once you see that everything makes sence. Yes ONE GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. Not three triune God's but only (ONE) God. Your a smart man you could easly figure that out WJ……….peace Gene
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