The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 17 2007,13:08)

Keyonn I was just reading in your quotation to W.J.
Question what Bible are you using?
We us the New King James and the Old. In that Mark 1:1 , 5:7 and 16:19 do not say what you said. You say you replaced what? Jesus with God. In all of these scriptures it talks about the Father speaking about the Son.

You ask if Jesus was the same before He became Man, No He was a Spirit Being like the Angels but He was His Son and came forth from the Father, not from the dust of the earth. He was the firstborn of all creatures that includes the Angels. He was first in all. First in Life and First to be resurrected. So He will have preeminence in all. Scriptures already given. He was fully Man when He became Man, but had the fullness of the Fathers Mind or Holy Spirit. I believe that is why He could not and would not sin. He knew what was at stake. The mysteries of God has been given to the saints. Why is there a mystery? That is the trinitarians line. It should not be ours. God the Father is above the Son and the Son is above us, and the Husband is above the Wife. We are the Temple of God, His Spirit lives in us. We should know Him. Hope I didn't miss something, if I did I will get back with you.

Peace and Love Mrs.

No Bible has the verses I wrote :cool: . Those were just verses I quoted from NASB and replaced “God” with “Jesus”. The point of this was to show the confusion that results if we replace “God” with “Jesus” since trinitarians say Jesus = God.

And yes I know, Father and Son, but again, that was the whole point. And yet it still leaves out #3, the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the answer on the form of Yeshua, but I'm waiting to hear from some trinitarians to see how they feel.

September 17, 2007 at 8:01 pm#66227

Participant

keyonn Thank you for your reply I understand now.

Peace and Love Mrs.:D

September 17, 2007 at 8:35 pm#66232

Mr. Steve

Participant

To all;

The trinity doctrine states that Christ is the eternal Son of God with the Father who is eternal. Because the trinity doctrine declares an eternal sonship it denies that Christ in fact is a Son and the Son of God. Hence, the trinity actually denies that Christ is the Son of God and makes him another eternal God with God the Father, thus, making him another Jesus that is not the Son of God.

Take Care

Steven

September 17, 2007 at 8:40 pm#66234

Participant

Steve right on the nose Amen, and Amen

Peace and Love always to all Mrs.

September 18, 2007 at 12:24 am#66247

Participant

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

Very true. There will always be a certain “mystery” about God until we meet Him one day, then we will know the truth of who He is. But I would be wary of using that word in relation to the trinity as it typically is an excuse to say that it cannot be fully explained. You know it is the opinion of non-trinitarians that the trinity adds “mystery” to what we view is much more simply stated in scripture.

Yes but again the Non-trinitarians disagree with Paul who clearly show that there is “mystery” surrouding Yeshua who is the “Image of the invisible God”.

1 Cor 2:11
But we speak the wisdom of God in a *mystery*, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
12 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Its interesting to note that Paul ascribes the term “Lord of glory” to Yeshua before his ascention, and the receiving back of his previous Glory he shared with the Father before the world began.

The “Mystery” of Godliness which is the “Lord of Glory”, according to 1 Cor 2:12, and the “Lord from heaven”, according to 1 Cor 15:47, that was manifest (or appeared) in the flesh according to 1 Tim 3:16, is still a “Mystery” to those who do not believe in him.

You say…

Quote

Well, to be fair, I didn't “cut and splice” verses, I just replaced “God” with “Jesus” whenever they were both found in the same verse to show you how it read and to see that when we see “God” in scripture, it is not a class of being like “Man”, but a title that goes to YHWH of the OT. After all, he is the only one called “God” in the OT, with the exception of the “named shall be called” in Is 9:6.

The word “Theos” in the NT is applied only to the Father and the Son in the NT in a “Divine” or true sense. The word does classify and make distinction of being between that which is of the created order and that which is the created. This word was only used by the Apostles in referring to the “One true God”. If the word by the Apostles dosnt define a class of being , then why did the Apostles so often use the word “by itself” apart from using it with the title “Father” or “Son” or the name Jesus in referrig to the “One true God”.

There is only two realitys found in scripture, and that is…

God and creation or creature

Uncreated and created.

Can you show me something that is not in one of these catagorys since “all things were made by him, (Yeshua) and without him was *not anything* made that was made”?

We know he didn’t create himself, and we also know that God alone created all things.

As far as word games. Lets try this.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the Father and the Word was the Father.

So the Father was with himself?

Or how about this…

Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, “O Father”, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

You say…

Quote

But we both believe that we are doing that, yet come up with different answers. Our human mind fails either one of us, or both of us.

Do we? I believe and agree with the major credible translations that Jn 1:1, Jn 20:28, Heb 1:8 says Yeshua is “Theos”, God!

You believe they should be translated “theos”, “Divine” or “god”. Am I correct in what iI am saying?

I believe according to Matt 28:19 and Jn 16:13, that there is a third person, especially looking at the nouns and verbs in the verse in Jn 16:13 supporting the pronouns proving the Holy Spirit has personal attributes, and also according to Jn 16:7,14,15 the Spirit is subservient to the Son which proves the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

But you are right our minds do fail us very often. So we do need the Spirit of truth to teach us and guide us.

You say…

Quote

I was debating someone on another board about healing, and trying to show her that both the healer and someone on behalf of the one receiving healing had to have faith. I showed her the verses, explained the context, but that person still refused to see it. I think we all believe something so strongly that sometimes we truly miss what is plainly written.

If we “grow up” believing something, it is hard to let go. I think that deep down, I'd always questioned the trinity, so it was easier for me to let it go. Believe me, to come out and disbelieve it changes alot, because in certain parts of America, you end up being without a church because almost every one around you believes Yeshua is God. Many only believe because that is what someone else told them and it then becomes part of the belief system.[quote]

I suppose there are a lot of people that believe things because they were told, but isn’t that true concerning all beliefs. There are many on this board that believe because certain things just because someone told them. Humans are like sheep. You see even certain groups here that will believe what someone says over another just because they are in their group, wether it is Henotheist or Unitarian or Arians, or Sabatarians. This is not exclusive to “Trinitarianism”.

But, the above was not true for me at all.

I never doubted the trinity, because I never doubted Jesus was God.

My conversion was miraculous by the Holy Spirit which was all over me. I can remember literally seeing an “Ora” a “Glow” of the Spirits presence on me as I looked at my arms.

Without anyone leading me in a sinners prayer, I found myself praying to Jesus, without any knowledge of a trinity, asking him to come into my life and forgive me of my sins. This happened during a Christian concert at the Baptist Church I visited. I was miraculously born again and when I left that Church it was a dramatic change and experience in my life. The trinity was easy for me to believe because like Thomas I knew who my Lord and God was. The Spirit testified of Jesus. The Father led me to the Son and revealed him to me.

Jn 6:44
[i] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Then Jesus introduced me to the Father…

Matt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Then Jesus introduced me to the Holy Spirit…

Jn 14:26…
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You say…[quote]
But I've also seen what has happened to Christianity. There is
much corruption in churches, and I think it is time for a huge revival. Young people are staying away from churches in droves because they don't see Yeshua in those places and people, they see some sort of exclusive club with membership rules. People pay tithes, and those tithes don't go back to God, they pay the power bill, the pastor's salary, etc. We have turned churches into businesses.

So, in essence, I don't miss that part of church. I do miss fellowship though. But I don't want to get too far off track…

This is an unfair assessment and judgment on the whole of Christianity. I don’t believe the “Body of Christ” made up of believers, (thousands in the churches are believers), is as sick as you say. For instance in my Church just yesterday the Spirit of God was moving greatly and people were getting healed and saved. The Youth in our Church are so fired up that Pastor turned over the service a few weeks back to the youth, including the worship and the preaching. It was glorious. Kejonn I think our Church is just a drop in the bucket to what the Father is doing throughout the world in the churches.

You say…

Quote

Its the Yankee in me. And thanks for saying I'm fair. Both of those statements tied together will help me to keep a mind to being more fair and less sarcastic in the future. We have had our “clashes” in the past, but I think we've come to a better understanding of one another over time.

Very true my brother. Kejonn, I want you to know that I Love you as a brother and realize you have been hurt deeply in Church. My prayer for you is God will heal and bless your socks off.

Thank you for stretching my faith.

You say…

Quote

One day we will know who He is for sure. Until then, there will always be those one both sides (with the various splinter groups).

I do want to ask you one thing though: do you think that Yeshua is the same as he was before he was born of Mary? In other words, do you think that his form is the same as before he took on humanity? The Bible shows that after his resurrection, he was “flesh and bones” and not spirit (Luke 24:39) but what about his form in heaven? While the ascension does not indicate that he “shed” his flesh tent, we do have these words of Paul which would indicate that Yeshua cannot be “flesh” and “blood”:

1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

I believe in the “Hypostatic Union”.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

The Word that was with God and was God did not change when he took on the likeness of flesh. For God cannot change. God simply came in the flesh.

As far as flesh and bones.

In your text Paul is speaking of mortal flesh. Jesus had the likeness of mortal flesh without sin. However he no longer has mortal flesh. Hs body can no longer die. His body has been glorified and changed.

After Jesus had ascended to the Father his body was changed. Remember he said to Mary don’t touch me for I have not yet ascended. But then later he tells Thomas to put his hand into his side.

Also the Body of Jesus being glorified looked like a Spirit.

Lk 24:26-39

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus still has that body, for all the fullness of God dwells in it.

Heb 10:
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Our bodies will change and become like his glorious body.

Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This shall be done in the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Blessings

September 18, 2007 at 12:43 am#66250

Proclaimer

Participant

OK.

Trinitarians have had plenty of time to show that the Trinity is scriptural.

They have failed.

Conclusion: the Trinity doctrine is a false doctrine and scripture testifies to this. It is a big lie and perhaps even the prophesied falling away before the coming of our Lord. Any Christian who claims that doctrine is true or the foundation of true faith needs to seriously ask God to reveal the truth to him/her.

And those who teach this doctrine will be judged more severely because they have not watched their doctrine closely and are working toward deceiving others.

It is one thing to believe a false doctrine and quite another to teach it. As truth seekers, we need to keep running the race. We can only do this if we are being led by the Spirit of Truth.

Someone might say “what impact can I have in this big world of deception”, but I remind you that light overcomes darkness. Even a little bit of light can overcome a great darkness.

We must also consider that Christ was a man and he changed the world. Paul was a man, and he turned the world upside down. How much more can we do, because God will pour out his Spirit in the last times.

John 14:12
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

September 18, 2007 at 3:09 am#66258

GeneBalthrop

Participant

t8….> I agree with you, those who trought the trinitarian Doctrine have failed to prove their point. And I also agree that the Lie about Jesus Being God is what caused the apostasy and created the man of sin spoken of in 2Thes 2 . And isn't it interesting they haven't changed non of our mindes. It's is in my opinion because greater is He who is in us then he thats in the world. God bless you for all your efforts and suport you give all of US……..gene

September 18, 2007 at 5:53 am#66272

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2007,12:43)

OK.

Trinitarians have had plenty of time to show that the Trinity is scriptural.

They have failed.

And those who teach this doctrine will be judged more severely because they have not watched their doctrine closely and are working toward deceiving others.

It is one thing to believe a false doctrine and quite another to teach it. As truth seekers, we need to keep running the race. We can only do this if we are being led by the Spirit of Truth.

Someone might say “what impact can I have in this big world of deception”, but I remind you that light overcomes darkness. Even a little bit of light can overcome a great darkness.

John 14:12
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Would God Judge someone for just believing the scriptures as they are without special interpretation?

Are those who believe the following scriptures doomed to hell?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
Phi 2:6 Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (Jesus), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Col 1:15 (Christ) Who is the image of the invisible God,…

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God(Jesus), and eternal life.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

This is only a few.

BTW. Trinitarians believe in the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God.

Is there anything else we have to believe to be saved?

September 18, 2007 at 3:26 pm#66288

Participant

(Kejonn. since I messed up the quotes on the first post I reposted)

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

Yes but again the Non-trinitarians disagree with Paul who clearly show that there is “mystery” surrouding Yeshua who is the “Image of the invisible God”.

Its interesting to note that Paul ascribes the term “Lord of glory” to Yeshua before his ascention, and the receiving back of his previous Glory he shared with the Father before the world began.

You say…

Quote

There is only two realitys found in scripture, and that is…

God and creation or creature

Uncreated and created.

Can you show me something that is not in one of these catagorys since “all things were made by him, (Yeshua) and without him was *not anything* made that was made”?

We know he didn’t create himself, and we also know that God alone created all things.

As far as word games. Lets try this.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the Father and the Word was the Father.

So the Father was with himself?

Or how about this…

Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, “O Father”, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

You say…

Quote

But we both believe that we are doing that, yet come up with different answers. Our human mind fails either one of us, or both of us.

Do we? I believe and agree with the major credible translations that Jn 1:1, Jn 20:28, Heb 1:8 says Yeshua is “Theos”, God!

You believe they should be translated “theos”, “Divine” or “god”. Am I correct in what iI am saying?

But you are right our minds do fail us very often. So we do need the Spirit of truth to teach us and guide us.

You say…

Quote

I suppose there are a lot of people that believe things because they were told, but isn’t that true concerning all beliefs. There are many on this board that believe certain things just because someone told them. Humans are like sheep. You see even certain groups here that will believe what someone says over another just because they are in their group, wether it is Henotheist or Unitarian or Arians, or Sabatarians. This is not exclusive to “Trinitarianism”.

But, the above was not true for me at all.

I never doubted the trinity, because I never doubted Jesus was God.

My conversion was miraculous by the Holy Spirit which was all over me. I can remember literally seeing an “Ora” a “Glow” of the Spirits presence on me as I looked at my arms.

Jn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Then Jesus introduced me to the Father…

Then Jesus introduced me to the Holy Spirit…

Jn 14:26…
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I h
ave said unto you.

You say…

Quote

But I've also seen what has happened to Christianity. There is much corruption in churches, and I think it is time for a huge revival. Young people are staying away from churches in droves because they don't see Yeshua in those places and people, they see some sort of exclusive club with membership rules. People pay tithes, and those tithes don't go back to God, they pay the power bill, the pastor's salary, etc. We have turned churches into businesses.

So, in essence, I don't miss that part of church. I do miss fellowship though. But I don't want to get too far off track…

You say…

Quote

Very true my brother. Kejonn, I want you to know that I Love you as a brother and realize you have been hurt deeply in Church. My prayer for you is God will heal and bless your socks off.

Thank you for stretching my faith.

You say…

Quote

One day we will know who He is for sure. Until then, there will always be those one both sides (with the various splinter groups).

1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

I believe in the “Hypostatic Union”.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

The Word that was with God and was God did not change when he took on the likeness of flesh. For God cannot change. God simply came in the flesh.

As far as flesh and bones.

After Jesus had ascended to the Father his body was changed. Remember he said to Mary don’t touch me for I have not yet ascended. But then later he tells Thomas to put his hand into his side.

Also the Body of Jesus being glorified looked like a Spirit.

Lk 24:26-39

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus still has that body, for all the fullness of God dwells in it.

Our bodies will change and become like his glorious body.

Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This shall be done in the resurrection.

Blessings

September 18, 2007 at 3:59 pm#66289

Participant

kejonn

BTW. Here is a test for you.

Find any scripure that uses the word “God” without the Father or Jesus, and insert the name Jesus and see if there is one scripture that would not fit or could not be ascribed to Jesus.

Then try that with any other man or angel or king etc.

September 18, 2007 at 6:37 pm#66312

Mr. Steve

Participant

WJ;

You have a lot to say. You asked a question. What more do you have to believe to be saved? Answer- Jesus is the Son of God. A son has a beginning. Christ never claimed to be eternal. When you state that Christ is eternal you deny his sonship. However, I like much of what you wrote that focuses on how God is fully manifest in Christ.

Take care,

Steven

September 18, 2007 at 7:02 pm#66318

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 17 2007,19:24)

Yes but again the Non-trinitarians disagree with Paul who clearly show that there is “mystery” surrouding Yeshua who is the “Image of the invisible God”.

I was confused for a sec. The verses are 1 Cor 2:7-8, not 11-12. No matter, I found them.

But is this mysterious wisdom that Yeshua is God? That would be a stretch as Paul did not say anything of the sort to the Corinthian believers. Yet we know that many people did not believe that Yeshua was the Messiah. And we also have this from the prior chapter:

1Cr 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
1Cr 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
1Cr 1:24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

So here, in context, Paul is speaking of Yeshua as the wisdom of God. He has yet to say anything to the Corinthians that Yeshua is God, nor will he in the balance of his epistles to them.

Quote

Its interesting to note that Paul ascribes the term “Lord of glory” to Yeshua before his ascention, and the receiving back of his previous Glory he shared with the Father before the world began.

Are you certain he is calling him “Lord of glory” prior to his ascension? I think he is using this title to speak of him as he is now (or when Paul knew him), but stating that he was crucified. It could go either way but it is more likely that Paul is using a term of endearment for the way he views Yeshua.

Quote

But, as I asked, is the “mystery” that he is God, or Messiah? All throughout the Gospels, he was being denied not as God, but as the Savior, the Christ. His message was never that he was “God in the flesh” but that he was the Christ. Even today, most Jews deny that he is the Messiah.

Quote

What constitutes “so often”? How many times was “theos” used of Yeshua? Paul was called “theos” too, albeit not by Apostles. So was Caesar. You call it the “divine” or “true” sense, but how can you differentiate based on language use alone?

Quote

There is only two realitys found in scripture, and that is…

God and creation or creature

Uncreated and created.

Can you show me something that is not in one of these catagorys since “all things were made by him, (Yeshua) and without him was *not anything* made that was made“?

Col 1:16, different renderings:

ASV: for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
ERV: for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
WNT: For in Him was created the universe of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, thrones, dominions, princedoms, powers–all were created, and exist through and for Him.
YLT: because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
NLT: Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see-kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.

Now what do these say? Even in another version (ESV), the word “by” is footnoted “that is, by means of, or in”. In other words, the clarification is that all things were created through Yeshua. By what means though? Does it go back to John 1:1 in reference to “logos”? God has always had a redemptive plan for humanity, and His Son has always been at the forefront. Thus, it can as easily be seen that all things were created for the sake of the Son to rule over one day. “For in him were all things created”. All things were created with him in mind. As God gave us charge over the earth, so he gives His Son charge over all including us.

Quote

As far as word games. Lets try this.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the Father and the Word was the Father.

So the Father was with himself?

The “logos” is not God in the sense that a “word” can be God, but God has always been known by His Word and the actions of His Word. He spoke, and the universe was created. He spoke through His prophets and judges, and men came to know Him. Thus, to mankind, His Word is Him. But His Word is also with Him.

Think of it in this fashion: what if a person wanted to know about me, but I was not available. Now let's say that not photos of me existed either, thus making me effectively “invisible”. So how would a person come to “know” me? Well, if I had left writings of myself, or people could remember some of what I said and did, I would be “known” in that way.

Thus God is known by His Word, His “logos”, and by those things He created through His Word. We see God in creation, we see God in people (“made in the image of God”). And in the 1st century, people were able to “see God” in His Son, because the “logos” became flesh. The redemptive plan of mankind finally came to
us.

Otherwise, are you prepared to show how “logos” logically fits the Son of God anywhere else in scripture? This would include the Septuagint because “logos” was used there as well. Why then would “logos” be any different in the case of John 1:1.

I think that there are many other verses that give us a hint of Yeshua's existence in some way before his earthly birth, but IMO, John 1 is not one of them. If so, one must be able to show that outside of this instance.

Quote

Or how about this…

Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, “O Father”, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

As I've often said before, this verse is a quote from the OT. In the original manner, an earthly king is called “God”. So here you are comparing Yeshua to an earthly king, and rightly so because he is King of kings. Had this verse come from no where and been applied to Yeshua, you might have something but when you reference back to the original and find out that “God” is applied to a man, then there is less to stand on.

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Do we? I believe and agree with the major credible translations that Jn 1:1, Jn 20:28, Heb 1:8 says Yeshua is “Theos”, God!

As I've studied John 1:1-14, it is quite evident that Yeshua is NOT found in John 1:1. We do not see Yeshua until John 1:14, when the “logos” becomes flesh. God's redemptive plan comes in the form of the Messiah, and this “word” had been given to men of God throughout the history of the OT.

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.“

Mic 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”

Isa 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Therefore, what was prophesied, what proceeded forth from God about the promised Messiah and was spoke of in the Law (Torah) and Prophets, became flesh in John 1:14.

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You believe they should be translated “theos”, “Divine” or “god”. Am I correct in what iI am saying?

Actually, I played around with the idea at one time. I no longer do. I don't see Yeshua at all in John 1:1 – all I see is God and His “logos”. Nowhere in scripture do we see that the “word” was a separate entity of some type. Why all of a sudden should it be in John 1:1?

As far as what Thomas says, we have already gone over that many times. You have the one-time exclamation of a doubting disciple that is in opposition (if it really was supposed to be that way) to the words that came from the mouth of the Son of God who said earlier in the same chapter that the Father is “my God and your God”. So if the Messiah tells me that the Father is his God AND my God, what do I do with Thomas' statement? Who do I believe? You would say both, but then I have to ask: when did anyone ever call the Holy Spirit “my God”? At best, you still have no trinity.

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But when is the Holy Spirit ever called “theos”? That is you contention above, so now you must supply proof positive that the same can be attributed to the Holy Spirit.

Here is one verse you spoke of, the closest that we have coming from the Son of God himself (we could never come up with trinity from Yeshua’s words!):

Mat 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

Have you ever heard anyone use the phrase “I am doing this in the name of __ (fill in the blank). It could be “love”, “science”, “peace”, “justice”, “all that is Holy”, etc. So to say that the disciples were to baptize in the name of all three does not mean they share a name, but that they should baptize in the authority of all three. After all, all three are involved in our salvation correct? The Father is the source of salvation and sent His “monogenes” Son, the Son died and was resurrected to save us, and the Holy Spirit dwells in us once we have accepted the free gift of salvation. Thus, all three are a part of our lives. This does not make them trinity.

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I suppose there are a lot of people that believe things because they were told, but isn't that true concerning all beliefs. There are many on this board that believe because certain things just because someone told them. Humans are like sheep. You see even certain groups here that will believe what someone says over another just because they are in their group, wether it is Henotheist or Unitarian or Arians, or Sabatarians. This is not exclusive to “Trinitarianism”.

Very correct! How many of us are Berean all the time? I am learning to be more and more, but I have been guilty of “believing” something without checking it against scripture.

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But, the above was not true for me at all.

I never doubted the trinity, because I never doubted Jesus was God.

My conversion was miraculous by the Holy Spirit which was all over me. I can remember literally seeing an “Ora” a “Glow” of the Spirits presence on me as I looked at my arms.

Jn 6:44
[i] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Then Jesus introduced me to the Father…

Matt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son
, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Then Jesus introduced me to the Holy Spirit…

And my task has never been to deny the power of God in your life, nor put your salvation in doubt. For me, though, I cannot say the same. I’ve always struggled more so when I wanted to compare myself to Yeshua who is God. How could I ever hope to be more like my Savior if he is God? What hope do I ever have in being “Christlike”? So when I found that scripture (for me) showed that he is not God, I knew that like him, I could overcome sin if I sought to be in the Father’s will. The Bible says he is my brother, and that he was made to be like me in all ways. I struggle with calling God my brother, but I know He is my Father.

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You say…

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So, in essence, I don't miss that part of church. I do miss fellowship though. But I don't want to get too far off track…

This is an unfair assessment and judgment on the whole of Christianity. I don't believe the “Body of Christ” made up of believers, (thousands in the churches are believers), is as sick as you say. For instance in my Church just yesterday the Spirit of God was moving greatly and people were getting healed and saved. The Youth in our Church are so fired up that Pastor turned over the service a few weeks back to the youth, including the worship and the preaching. It was glorious. Kejonn I think our Church is just a drop in the bucket to what the Father is doing throughout the world in the churches.

I am going to start a thread about this concept, so I will reserve responses to that thread.

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You say…

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Very true my brother. Kejonn, I want you to know that I Love you as a brother and realize you have been hurt deeply in Church. My prayer for you is God will heal and bless your socks off.

Thank you for stretching my faith.

Likewise. But you have also helped me learn more about the Bible.

What I never want to do, however, is turn people off to Yeshua altogether. I think there can be some danger in doing so if we are not careful. Our conversations are not for people new in their faith, I don’t think. It takes someone strong in their convictions to be able to hold on to what they have if they happen to walk into our debates.

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I believe in the “Hypostatic Union”.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

The Word that was with God and was God did not change when he took on the likeness of flesh. For God cannot change. God simply came in the flesh.

As far as flesh and bones.

After Jesus had ascended to the Father his body was changed. Remember he said to Mary don't touch me for I have not yet ascended. But then later he tells Thomas to put his hand into his side.

Also the Body of Jesus being glorified looked like a Spirit.

Lk 24:26-39

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus still has that body, for all the fullness of God dwells in it.

Our bodies will change and become like his glorious body.

Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This shall be done in the resurrection.

Blessings

Thanks for the answer. I was curious because of the fact that God cannot change. To become a man would be to change. But one can see you viewpoint if we consider that the body is never the person – our spirit and soul define us.

September 18, 2007 at 7:12 pm#66321

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2007,10:59)

kejonn

BTW. Here is a test for you.

Find any scripure that uses the word “God” without the Father or Jesus, and insert the name Jesus and see if there is one scripture that would not fit or could not be ascribed to Jesus.

Then try that with any other man or angel or king etc.

Well, its all about viewpoint isn't it? I would say none of them fit because I don't believe Yeshua is God, but you'd see a fit because you believe he is. So this would not be a good test IMO. But here is one:

1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Well, Yeshua is not invisible, the Father is. Nor is he immortal although he inherited immortality (as we all shall) because if so, this could not be said of him:

Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Yeshua does not say that the body he had was dead, he says he was dead. One cannot be immortal and die.

September 18, 2007 at 9:36 pm#66326

Participant

kejonn

Thanks for your response!

As you know I disagree in all points. It seems we are rehashing the same things!

I will comment on this..

Yoiu say…

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The septuagint does not define “Logos” because the revelation of Jesus being called “Logos” hadnt come yet. Jesus wasnt born yet and the NT hadnt been written yet. John obviously used the word differently in the following passages.

John 1:1, is not found there. Neither is these…

1 Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (Logos) of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John says he looked upon and heard and handled the “Word” of life.
“which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,”

“OF THE WORD OF LIFE”

The context plainly shows that the Word is Jesus that was with the Father from the beginning therfore defining the “Word” in John 1:1. He further clarifys that Jesus is the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father from the beginning.

John also sees Yeshua with the name “Word of God”. So the “Logos” is also a name.

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Anyway, it looks like you have had to fully cross over to the “Unitarian” side seeing that you could not reconcile scriptures by holding a 'pre-existent” view of Yeshua.

I remember a while back you were saying that there were to many scriptures that show plainly that Christ pre-existed his birth. If I am not correct plz let me know.

If this is true, you do realize as a moderater and “Regular Member” on this sight that you are in opposition to a lot of t8s writtings dont you?

I am just curious as to why t8 would allow someone who disagrees with his writtings to that extent to moderate his sight?

t8 dose not hold to the “Unitarian beliefs”.

If you think I am wrong in any of my statements here plz say so. And I will stand corrected!

Blessings

September 18, 2007 at 9:55 pm#66327

Participant

WJ,

I too will reserve any further response until I get your next (long, I'm sure ) response. But I will say that I'm not fully “Unitarian” right now. I'm still investigating whether or not there is strong evidence of a pre-existent form of Yeshua. There are many “hints” but the evidence is really not strong. So don't “label” me yet :laugh: .

As far as being a moderator, the powers are very limited. I told them I would be willing to keep an eye on spam and porn posts. I volunteered to do this only. I do not do very much else. I cannot edit posts, I cannot give people certain rights. With Nick being on hiatus, we needed someone who would delete the daily smut and trash that gets posted. I don't catch everything right away (I'm on a different time zone than some on here!) but I do log on daily, and several times a day.

September 18, 2007 at 10:43 pm#66330

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 19 2007,07:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 18 2007,10:59)

kejonn

BTW. Here is a test for you.

Find any scripure that uses the word “God” without the Father or Jesus, and insert the name Jesus and see if there is one scripture that would not fit or could not be ascribed to Jesus.

Then try that with any other man or angel or king etc.

1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Well, Yeshua is not invisible, the Father is. Nor is he immortal although he inherited immortality (as we all shall) because if so, this could not be said of him:

Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Yeshua does not say that the body he had was dead, he says he was dead. One cannot be immortal and die.

kejonn

How come my test is not a good one but yours is?

But Jesus is “eternal” and “Immortal” and “Invisible”.

Does he live in your heart? Can you see him or his Spirit.

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Can believers see him when he stands in their midst?

Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Can we see him with us?

Matt 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word immortal is 'aphthartos' which means…

1) uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

a) of things

2) immortal

a) of the risen dead

Paul wrote this after his ressurrection.

Besides you should look at the context of the verse…

12 And I thank Christ Jesus *our Lord*, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus *came into the world* (hello Unitarians ) to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Who is the King Paul was describing? Tell me how he suddenly jumps to the Father in verse 17 without mentioning the Father in the previous 5 verses?

Context kejonn.

So you didnt perform the test.

I said…
“Find any scripure that uses the word “God” without the Father or Jesus, and insert the name Jesus and see if there is one scripture that would not fit or could not be ascribed to Jesus.”

Over 1300 times the word God “Theos” is found in NT scriptures, and only 268 times the word Father “Pater” is found and almost invariably when the Father is mentioned the Son is there.

975 times the word Jesus “Yĕhowshuwa`” is found.

Over 700 times the word Lord “Kurios” is found and I havnt counted them yet but venture to say that almost all are ascribed to Yeshua.

Just something to think about.

Truly the Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Gospel of God!

1 Thes 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Tim 1:12
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

September 18, 2007 at 10:47 pm#66332

seeking the truth

Participant

Hi Kjonn,

I think you're on to something. I believe that Jesus did not exist from the beginning either,but the WORD of God did.

God spoke things into an existance, through his words. Through his words he spoke of salvation for Israel, he pre-ordained prophets and great Kings before they were even born. So why is it different for Jesus Christ?

I haven't come across a scripture that stated Jesus was a spirit before he came down as a man.

But as we all know that when Jesus was raised from the dead, he had a glorified body, but he was still the same, he even said in John 21:6

“reach here your finger, and see My hand, and reach here your hand and put it on my side and be not unbelieveing, but believeing.”

Therefore we will see Jesus the way he was when he was here on earth, with a body not a Spirit like God?

Therefore how do we know he was with the Father in the beginning?, there is no scriptures that states this(well not that I know of), but we all know God's Spirit is wisdom therefore Jesus was FILLED with God's Spirit, but I don't think he was with the Father in the beginning, but God's spirit of wisdom was with God.

So I think God pre-ordained Jesus from Nazareth to be the vessel for God's Spirit (Wisdom), God's WORD?

I'm not sure.

But thank you all for sharing so much of your knowledge and what you have learned so far about our Lord and our Father.

But in for sure, I know Jesus is seperate from God, and thank you so much for assuring me of this. It is so hard to let go of something that you've been taught of all your life, but now my eyes are open.

How can anyone that confessing they Love God, but yet deny the sonship of his Christ. The identity of his Son?

I've done this, and never again.

Jesus Christ is God Son, it is his rightful place, he should never be less then this or be exalted as God the Father, because either way it is WRONG and anti Christ.

I've learned so much more here then I have in my own church..thanks guys…

God bless!

September 18, 2007 at 11:13 pm#66334

Mr. Steve

Participant

Kejonn;

With respect to the pre-existence of Jesus as the Son of God, the scriptures are very clear. Three times in John 1, John the Baptist says that “he” (Jesus) is preferred before me because he (Jesus) was before me. Christ also said many times that he was from above and would go back to where he was before. If “he” does not refer to a person, what does it refer to? Jesus is not merely the word made flesh, Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt among us. Otherwise, if Christ was merely the word made flesh he could not have made any of the statements about having been with the Father and having seen God. John 6:46. Moreover, if he was merely the word made flesh than he was no different than us with the exception that he did not need to be born again because he knew no sin. That is not the case.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to label yourself. You might be disappointed. I know what I believe but I don't see any denominations in the scriptures. Many times we have to remain silent where we worship to be used of God. Before Christ was baptized, he read the scriptures in the synagogue but didn't reveal who he was until the fulness of time. I'm sure he could have rebuked the leaders long before he did but he spoke as his Father told him to speak. I've come to realize that in order to be used of God we have to learn to walk in that path. Proverbs says “A fool uttereth all his mind.” It can be very humiliating when you believe you're sharing truth and you find yourself cast out. We have more freedom online than we do in an actual church where we have to submit to the powers that be. If you ask God to help you know when to speak at a certain time he can guide you. Occasionally, someone will look at you with that “what planet are you from look” but can't say anything to refute what you say either. I think its God's way of getting people to think and to realize there's more to the scriptures than what they thought. Many of my friends are staunch trinitarians. An understanding of the Godhead is important for your personal growth, but faith in Christ as the Son of God is all that is required for salvation and that's what people need to hear first. God bless you in Christ. I'll be praying for you.

Take care,

Steven

September 19, 2007 at 12:01 am#66336

Participant

seeking the truth I however do believe that Jesus did exist before the creation of the world. And there are scriptures that go with that. I gave given them many times. If you care you will study them, I will not write them out, but I will give you the scriptures that I believes proves it.
Col. 1:18, Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14, Gen. 1:26,Proverb 8:22-30,John 1:1
Using the Moffatt version of the Bible for Proverb is recommended, it explains it better.

One more thing I am not a J.W. and when somebody first told me about it I said “No way”. However after studying it, I cant deny it anymore. I take truth from whoever has it, even if it comes from a J.W.

Peace and Love Mrs.

September 19, 2007 at 12:16 am#66337