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IM4truth…..I never said Jesus was higher then God. What i said was, If we thjink he was a superbeing on the level of God, or a higher level then us weak human beings. And thats the way you are portraying him as your saying he was the wisdom that was with God and ect. If you use proverbs as your proof of His preexistance, when it's talking about an atribute of God himself not Jesus at all. Answer me this How could he learn obedience if He already existed with God before He apeared on earth. Don't you think Peter would have known if Jesus preexisted , and if he did why would he say he was foreordained, he would have said he preexisted if indeed he did. And John 1:1 does not mention Jesus' name at all. The word was God not Jesus and came to cohabit In the flesh of Jesus with him. Jesus said the Father was in Him. God took a ordinary man exactly like you and me and empowered him to overcome His flesh and not sin, just like He can do with Us. There is no difference between Jesus and Us. Many Scriptures show this.
And trying to make Jesus different is an act of seperating your self from His likeness. Satan doesn't want you to think Jesus is exactly like you, He knows it will destory our faith in God if we believe that.
peace……..geneGen Proverbs speaks of Jesus not the Father, where do you get that?
My last post I used the Moffatt TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE, but the New James version says this
Proverb 8:22 ” THE LORD POSSESSED ME AT THE BEGINNING OF HIS WAY, BEFORE THE WORKS OF OLD…..
24 WHEN THERE WAS NO DEPTH I WAS BROUGHT FORTH
etc. etc. etc.
I am not going to write them down again, you should get the picture.Anytime you see LORD capitalized it is speaking of the Father.
Jesus is the Son of God, I did not say that He was the Almighty God. Again and again I have to remind those that do not understand John 1 that God is a title. It was used for so many. They have Names don't they? But because the translator's did not want to take Gods Word in vain they said God.
I am so convinced that that is the truth not my understanding either, it came from God. After all the Spirit of God lives in me. It is producing this as truth that's how convinced I am. As convinced as I am about the trinity. There are clear cut scriptures to prove my point.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Gen Sorry I did misread that about Jesus being higher. See how we can do that, we read something into
that is not there. I did that twice today, I think I better stop, my mind must be tired.Good Night Brother
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 17 2007,03:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2007,01:55) To all. The Trinitarian doctrine is found in the whole of all of the scriptures. It is the only way to reconcile all the scriptures without contradictions. Blessings
Hey WJ,The trinity is not the only way to reconcile all the scriptures, but it is the most popular way amongst mainstream Christianity. The fact is, there are still many problems with the trinity doctrine because if you say God is all three then when you have the many verses that include God and Yeshua in a verse, can we insert the Jesus where God is? I'll give you but a few examples with Jesus substituted — since you say Jesus is God — because the verse does not specify the Father:
Mat 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living Jesus, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY Jesus, MY Jesus, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mar 5:7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High Jesus? I implore You by Jesus, do not torment me!”
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except Jesus alone.
Mar 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of Jesus.
Jhn 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of Jesus!”
Jhn 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from Jesus as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless Jesus is with him.”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of Jesus, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If Jesus were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from Jesus, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true Jesus, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Jhn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of Jesus; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Act 2:32 “This Jesus Jesus raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 3:13 “The Jesus of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Jesus of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
Act 5:30 “The Jesus of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of Jesus, and Jesus standing at the right hand of Jesus;
Of course I could go on for pages, but you see where there is already an issue? And I know that the Father is implied in these verses, but your statement that scripture is only reconciled with God as a trinity is not quite correct. It still has alot of issues.
Kejonn, I do wonder about you at times….you seem quite switched on and then every so often you write something like this….Here's a heads up for you – trinitarians affirm that “God” (the Father) and Yeshua (the Son) are in fact two distinct persons. So it seems quite reasonable that they should be so frequently mentioned together in the same verse. Actually, if they were not it would be a blow to the doctrine. So the point you make is entirely redundant.
What the VATICAN says:
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 17 2007,03:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2007,01:55) To all. The Trinitarian doctrine is found in the whole of all of the scriptures. It is the only way to reconcile all the scriptures without contradictions. Blessings
Hey WJ,The trinity is not the only way to reconcile all the scriptures, but it is the most popular way amongst mainstream Christianity. The fact is, there are still many problems with the trinity doctrine because if you say God is all three then when you have the many verses that include God and Yeshua in a verse, can we insert the Jesus where God is? I'll give you but a few examples with Jesus substituted — since you say Jesus is God — because the verse does not specify the Father:
Mat 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living Jesus, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY Jesus, MY Jesus, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mar 5:7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High Jesus? I implore You by Jesus, do not torment me!”
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except Jesus alone.
Mar 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of Jesus.
Jhn 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of Jesus!”
Jhn 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from Jesus as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless Jesus is with him.”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of Jesus, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If Jesus were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from Jesus, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true Jesus, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Jhn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of Jesus; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Act 2:32 “This Jesus Jesus raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 3:13 “The Jesus of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Jesus of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
Act 5:30 “The Jesus of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of Jesus, and Jesus standing at the right hand of Jesus;
Of course I could go on for pages, but you see where there is already an issue? And I know that the Father is implied in these verses, but your statement that scripture is only reconciled with God as a trinity is not quite correct. It still has alot of issues.
kejonnHello my friend!
Word games will never reveal the “Mystery” of Godliness.
This is the kind of thing that t8 does.
Everyone knows that you can make scriptures say what ever you want.
An example of this “Judas went out and hanged himself”, now “Go thou and do likewise”.
But why dont we accept scriptures for what they say in their context without all the reading into them and trying to make them say something they dont.
I am not saying you are trying to read into them here for I think you are one of the fairest non-trinitarians I have met.
A little sarcastic at times and doubtful of the way the scriptures are translated.
Yes, the Mystery of Godliness!
I didnt say it, Paul did.
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Mystery, Greek…”musterion”, which means;
1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
c) a hidden purpose or counsel
1) secret will
a) of men
b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
Paul often refers to Yeshua as being this “Mystery”.
Jesus said…
Matt 13:
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Isa 6:9 John 12:40 Acts 28:26
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Isa 6:10 Mark 4:12 Acts 28:27
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.Blessings!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2007,04:47) Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 17 2007,02:46) The Son of man could not have existed he wasn't born yet.
But the WORD that was in the Son of man existed from the beginning. In the beginning was the Word.Was the “Word” God's Son? Was the Word a “begotten Son”?
The Son of man was filled with GOD.
Kenrch……> Good point, thats the way i see it also. The words (became flesh) Should be (came to be) in flesh, infact thats what the meanning of became means. God who was and is the Word came to in the Flesh Body of Jesus By cohabiting with Jesus in Jesus' body. It's so simple if you just take the words for Just what the word means, and listen to what Jesus himself said. He himself clearly explains it. Jesus plainly said the words he spoke wern't His, So simple logic would tell you He Wasn't the WORD. Because he spoke God's WORDS does not make HIM the words he spoke. He plainly said that……> peace brother……gene
GBHeb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:The me in the above is the Word that was with God and Was God in Jn 1:1.
Jn 1:14
And the Word was *made* flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The word *made* is “ginomai”, and can also mean…
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
It ties in very nicely with the following scriptures…
1 Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.The greek for “Manifested” is “phaneroo” which means…
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
a) make actual and visible, realised
b) to make known by teaching
c) to become manifest, be made known
d) of a person
1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1) who and what one isIts the same word Paul uses here…
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the *mystery* of godliness: God was manifest (phaneroo) in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Its scriptures and words like these that are strongly opposed to the Unitarian belief that Jesus did not pre-exist.
Jn 1:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father (God), but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father (God) also: and from henceforth ye know him (God), and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father (God), and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me (God), Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father (God)?Jesus clearly reveals his deity in these verses. He is “The Image of the invisible God”.
To see the “Image of God” as less than God is to make our own image of him.
This would break the first and the second commandment.
IMHO.
The fact that there is only one God is an outstanding teaching in the Bible. It was the basic message of the prophets and apostles. It is the foundation truth of the gospel.
1. One God. The Bible clearly states that there is one God. Bible writers show that God is a sole individual, a unique being. God is one; there is one person who is God.
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all1 Timothy 2:5
There is one God1 Corinthians 8:4
None other God but one1 Corinthians 8:6
There is but one God, the FatherJames 2:19
There is one GodGalatians 3:20
God is oneMatthew 19:17
None good but one, that is, GodMark 10:18
None good but one, that is, GodMark 12:29
The Lord our God is one LordDeuteronomy 6:4
The Lord our God is one Lord2. The Only God. The Bible teaches God's simple unity not only by stating that He is one, but also by affirming that He is the only God. The word “only” means alone, by one's self, apart, to be solitary.
John 17:3
Thee the only true GodI Timothy 1:17
The only wise GodI Timothy 6:15
The blessed and only PotentateJude 4
Denying, the only Lord GodJude 25
To the only wise God2 Kings 19:15
Thou alone2 Kings 19:19
Thou onlyNehemiah 9:6
Thou art Lord alonePsalm 83:18
Whose name alone is JehovahPsalm 86:9, 10
Thou art God aloneIsaiah 44:24
Stretcheth forth the heavens alone3. There Is None Other. All, others are excluded. There is none else. God is alone; beside Him none other exists.
Mark: 12:32
There is none other but he1 Corinthians 8:4
There is none other God but oneDeuteronomy 4:35
There is none else beside himDeuteronomy 4:39
There is none elseDeuteronomy 32:39
There is no god with me1 Samuel 2:2
There is none beside me1 Kings 8:60
There is none elseIsaiah 43:10
Before me no God, neither afterIsaiah 43:11
Beside me there is no saviourIsaiah 44:6
Beside me there is no GodIsaiah 44:8
I know not anyIsaiah 45:5
There is no God beside meIsaiah 45:6
There is none beside meIsaiah 45:14
There is none elseIsaiah 45:18
There is none elseIsaiah 45:21
There is no God beside meIsaiah 45:22
I am God, there is none elseIsaiah 46:9
I am God, there is none elseJeremiah 10:10
The Lord is the true GodJoel 2:27
None elseI have always wondered where in the Bible does it say that God is three persons? It doesn't really, does it? It's implied or deduced, but certainly nowhere are we taught that God is anything but One. There may be times when scripture seems to say someone is God other-than the Father, but then shouldn't clear scriptures like 1 Corinthians 8:6 rule out any possibility that anyone other-than the Father is God?
Are we not using our own intellect to put these assumptions together to create a new God?
The God of Abraham is the Father.
The God of Jesus is the Father.
The God of main stream Christianity is the Father *and* the Son *and* the Holy Spirit?“God” has changed since the beginning hasn't he? God used to be just the Father. What happened? I ponder this every day….
Not3
You said…
Quote
“God” has changed since the beginning hasn't he? God used to be just the Father. What happened? I ponder this every day….You are right there is but “One God”. Yet scriptures teach that God is “plural”. I didnt say it, the word says it.
Elohim is a Plural word.
The very first book of the Bible shows us this principle!
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Hebrew word for God is 'elohiym’ which is a plural word.
Later in the chapter we read…
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Since we know that God has only one image and he has not shared that image with any other creature but man, for man is the one God has chosen to have dominion over all, then we know when he says above let us make man in our image and after our likeness that he couldn’t have been speaking to any other creature like angels.
We know that the image of the invisible God is Yeshua and the Father was speaking to Yeshua and the Holy Spirit who was moving over the face of the waters.
How many scriptures do we have to white out or change if we say Jesus is not God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit?
You say…”What has changed”?
Nothing from the very beginning. God has made it known to us and men have changed it.
Blessings!!!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 16 2007,23:34) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 17 2007,03:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2007,01:55) To all. The Trinitarian doctrine is found in the whole of all of the scriptures. It is the only way to reconcile all the scriptures without contradictions. Blessings
Hey WJ,The trinity is not the only way to reconcile all the scriptures, but it is the most popular way amongst mainstream Christianity. The fact is, there are still many problems with the trinity doctrine because if you say God is all three then when you have the many verses that include God and Yeshua in a verse, can we insert the Jesus where God is? I'll give you but a few examples with Jesus substituted — since you say Jesus is God — because the verse does not specify the Father:
Mat 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living Jesus, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY Jesus, MY Jesus, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mar 5:7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High Jesus? I implore You by Jesus, do not torment me!”
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except Jesus alone.
Mar 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of Jesus.
Jhn 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of Jesus!”
Jhn 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from Jesus as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless Jesus is with him.”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of Jesus, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If Jesus were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from Jesus, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true Jesus, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Jhn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of Jesus; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Act 2:32 “This Jesus Jesus raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 3:13 “The Jesus of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Jesus of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
Act 5:30 “The Jesus of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of Jesus, and Jesus standing at the right hand of Jesus;
Of course I could go on for pages, but you see where there is already an issue? And I know that the Father is implied in these verses, but your statement that scripture is only reconciled with God as a trinity is not quite correct. It still has alot of issues.
Kejonn, I do wonder about you at times….you seem quite switched on and then every so often you write something like this….Here's a heads up for you – trinitarians affirm that “God” (the Father) and Yeshua (the Son) are in fact two distinct persons. So it seems quite reasonable that they should be so frequently mentioned together in the same verse. Actually, if they were not it would be a blow to the doctrine. So the point you make is entirely redundant.
Hi IS,You must have alot going on. Good to “see” you again. I'm going through “phases” in my walk as I learn more. In my time of denying the trinity, I've experienced people from both sides of the camp show an ugly side which is unbecoming of anyone who labels themselves a Christian. So I'm not 100% there yet, but I strongly believe that the Bible as we have it in English today does allow for people to legitimately believe either way. I know that sound's odd, but why else would people have such strong cases?
Again, my biggest contention with the trinity is that people can tend to forget the Father, who I believe to be Yahweh. This is certainly true of Gentiles as the most do not have a culture that has a background of worshiping Yahweh — we were introduced to God through His Son. Looking at Yeshua's walk on earth, you know that he was always about his Father's business.
Anyway, the verses I list are indeed just word play, but it is an ever simple way to show that there is a big failure in assuming that Jesus is God, even if that means he is just 1 “person” of God. I had originally started to substitute Trinity for God but it really read weirder than the above
.There are some thoughts floating around out there that the relationship in heaven is a family. After all, Yahweh is the Father of Yeshua. I've even see some say that God is neither male or female since He is Spirit, but that he is the embodiment of all. That has some support in the Genesis creation account:
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
So in essence, while we call God “Father” he is really “Parent”. But that is just a side thought.
One day we will be in the family too. We are adopted, and Christ calls us his brethren. We won't be “God”, but we will be God's family someday. Well, we are already as we have been reborn. We're just waiting to go home (or for home to come to us).
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 17 2007,07:15) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 16 2007,23:34)
Kejonn, I do wonder about you at times….you seem quite switched on and then every so often you write something like this….Here's a heads up for you – trinitarians affirm that “God” (the Father) and Yeshua (the Son) are in fact two distinct persons. So it seems quite reasonable that they should be so frequently mentioned together in the same verse. Actually, if they were not it would be a blow to the doctrine. So the point you make is entirely redundant.
Hi IS,You must have alot going on. Good to “see” you again. I'm going through “phases” in my walk as I learn more. In my time of denying the trinity, I've experienced people from both sides of the camp show an ugly side which is unbecoming of anyone who labels themselves a Christian. So I'm not 100% there yet, but I strongly believe that the Bible as we have it in English today does allow for people to legitimately believe either way. I know that sound's odd, but why else would people have such strong cases?
Again, my biggest contention with the trinity is that people can tend to forget the Father, who I believe to be Yahweh. This is certainly true of Gentiles as the most do not have a culture that has a background of worshiping Yahweh — we were introduced to God through His Son. Looking at Yeshua's walk on earth, you know that he was always about his Father's business.
Anyway, the verses I list are indeed just word play, but it is an ever simple way to show that there is a big failure in assuming that Jesus is God, even if that means he is just 1 “person” of God. I had originally started to substitute Trinity for God but it really read weirder than the above
.There are some thoughts floating around out there that the relationship in heaven is a family. After all, Yahweh is the Father of Yeshua. I've even see some say that God is neither male or female since He is Spirit, but that he is the embodiment of all. That has some support in the Genesis creation account:
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
So in essence, while we call God “Father” he is really “Parent”. But that is just a side thought.
One day we will be in the family too. We are adopted, and Christ calls us his brethren. We won't be “God”, but we will be God's family someday. Well, we are already as we have been reborn. We're just waiting to go home (or for home to come to us).
Forgot one thing you failed to address in your statement: you also believe that the HS is another “person” of God, so can we always insert “Father” whenever Yeshua and God share the same verse? So you have to make up for the other 2 “persons”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 17 2007,00:54) kejonn Hello my friend!
Word games will never reveal the “Mystery” of Godliness.
Very true. There will always be a certain “mystery” about God until we meet Him one day, then we will know the truth of who He is. But I would be wary of using that word in relation to the trinity as it typically is an excuse to say that it cannot be fully explained. You know it is the opinion of non-trinitarians that the trinity adds “mystery” to what we view is much more simply stated in scripture.Quote This is the kind of thing that t8 does. Everyone knows that you can make scriptures say what ever you want.
An example of this “Judas went out and hanged himself”, now “Go thou and do likewise”.
Well, to be fair, I didn't “cut and splice” verses, I just replaced “God” with “Jesus” whenever they were both found in the same verse to show you how it read and to see that when we see “God” in scripture, it is not a class of being like “Man”, but a title that goes to YHWH of the OT. After all, he is the only one called “God” in the OT, with the exception of the “named shall be called” in Is 9:6.Quote But why dont we accept scriptures for what they say in their context without all the reading into them and trying to make them say something they dont.
But we both believe that we are doing that, yet come up with different answers. Our human mind fails either one of us, or both of us.I was debating someone on another board about healing, and trying to show her that both the healer and someone on behalf of the one receiving healing had to have faith. I showed her the verses, explained the context, but that person still refused to see it. I think we all believe something so strongly that sometimes we truly miss what is plainly written.
If we “grow up” believing something, it is hard to let go. I think that deep down, I'd always questioned the trinity, so it was easier for me to let it go. Believe me, to come out and disbelieve it changes alot, because in certain parts of America, you end up being without a church because almost every one around you believes Yeshua is God. Many only believe because that is what someone else told them and it then becomes part of the belief system.
But I've also seen what has happened to Christianity. There is much corruption in churches, and I think it is time for a huge revival. Young people are staying away from churches in droves because they don't see Yeshua in those places and people, they see some sort of exclusive club with membership rules. People pay tithes, and those tithes don't go back to God, they pay the power bill, the pastor's salary, etc. We have turned churches into businesses.
So, in essence, I don't miss that part of church. I do miss fellowship though. But I don't want to get too far off track…
Quote I am not saying you are trying to read into them here for I think you are one of the fairest non-trinitarians I have met. A little sarcastic at times and doubtful of the way the scriptures are translated.
Its the Yankee in me. And thanks for saying I'm fair. Both of those statements tied together will help me to keep a mind to being more fair and less sarcastic in the future. We have had our “clashes” in the past, but I think we've come to a better understanding of one another over time.Quote Yes, the Mystery of Godliness! I didnt say it, Paul did.
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Mystery, Greek…”musterion”, which means;
1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
c) a hidden purpose or counsel
1) secret will
a) of men
b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
Paul often refers to Yeshua as being this “Mystery”.
Jesus said…
Matt 13:
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Isa 6:9 John 12:40 Acts 28:26
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Isa 6:10 Mark 4:12 Acts 28:27
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.Blessings!
One day we will know who He is for sure. Until then, there will always be those one both sides (with the various splinter groups).I do want to ask you one thing though: do you think that Yeshua is the same as he was before he was born of Mary? In other words, do you think that his form is the same as before he took on humanity? The Bible shows that after his resurrection, he was “flesh and bones” and not spirit (Luke 24:39) but what about his form in heaven? While the ascension does not indicate that he “shed” his flesh tent, we do have these words of Paul which would indicate that Yeshua cannot be “flesh” and “blood”:
1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
So what do you think?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 17 2007,19:29) Since we know that God has only one image and he has not shared that image with any other creature but man, for man is the one God has chosen to have dominion over all, then we know when he says above let us make man in our image and after our likeness that he couldn’t have been speaking to any other creature like angels.
But aren't the angels also considered to be “sons of God”?Also, if we were made in God's image and God is plural, how come we do not consist of more than one “person”?
Good Post, WJ. You are able to teach without belittling your pupil. I appreciate that very much!
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 18 2007,02:29) If we “grow up” believing something, it is hard to let go. I think that deep down, I'd always questioned the trinity, so it was easier for me to let it go. Believe me, to come out and disbelieve it changes alot, because in certain parts of America, you end up being without a church because almost every one around you believes Yeshua is God. Many only believe because that is what someone else told them and it then becomes part of the belief system.
I can relate, brother.WJ I do agree with Mandy on that point, that you do not belittle people. Nice Job.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 18 2007,00:15) but I strongly believe that the Bible as we have it in English today does allow for people to legitimately believe either way. I know that sound's odd, but why else would people have such strong cases?
Also agree!Matthew 11:27
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Let's pray that we are the ones who Jesus chooses to reveal his Father to! Amen.
WJ…..> the scripture in Heb 10:5 the me you are assuming is the word is not stated there. The text is refering the Jesus' body prepared by the Father and has nothing to do with the word (WORD) as you claim as far as i can see. The Father was in Jesus via His Spirit but was not the person Jesus , big difference, the Father who is the word can cohabbit and does by the Holy Spirit, he conciders us temples in which He can and does indwell. Let this mind be in you that was in Jesus our lord and if it does (IT) the mind of God will quicken our mortal bodies (ALSO) Just like it did Jesus, no difference same thing. Doesent it say until we come unto the (FULL) measure of Christ. Jesus i believe was just like us in every way and what happened to him can also happen to us. He plainly expressed that to us. So to me the Word was and is God and those words can be in us just like they were in Jesus, In fact if there not then you have no life in you, isn't that what Jesus said ” the (WORDS) in telling you (ARE) truth and (LIFE). Jesus said whosoever believes in me (AND) the words I speak (dwell) in him has life. You see WJ it not about Jesus it what Jesus said. Many people whorship the messenger but doint retain the message, the important thing was the message……..Peace to you ….Gene
WJ;
The scriptures do not teach that God is plural. That conclusion is a direct contradiction of what the prophets and Christ taught; i.e., God is one. Christ is the Son of God, not God. To state he is God is to deny his sonship, which is anti-gospel.
Steven
Gen You truly believe that you will come to the understanding that Jesus had? That my friend I do not agree with. He had the Fathers Spirit full strength, I do not believe that any man will ever be like Christ, even tho we are to try to be like Christ, and I believe that those Christian that gave their lives for Christ did, but not today, our trials do not compare to what they had to endure. I also do not believe that our understanding of the Word will ever be perfect. Just look on this Web how many different believes and each thinks He has the truth. It would be wonderful if that would happen, don't get me wrong, and I hope we will, but that is how far I will go with it.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Keyonn I was just reading in your quotation to W.J.
Question what Bible are you using?
We us the New King James and the Old. In that Mark 1:1 , 5:7 and 16:19 do not say what you said. You say you replaced what? Jesus with God. In all of these scriptures it talks about the Father speaking about the Son.You ask if Jesus was the same before He became Man, No He was a Spirit Being like the Angels but He was His Son and came forth from the Father, not from the dust of the earth. He was the firstborn of all creatures that includes the Angels. He was first in all. First in Life and First to be resurrected. So He will have preeminence in all. Scriptures already given. He was fully Man when He became Man, but had the fullness of the Fathers Mind or Holy Spirit. I believe that is why He could not and would not sin. He knew what was at stake. The mysteries of God has been given to the saints. Why is there a mystery? That is the trinitarians line. It should not be ours. God the Father is above the Son and the Son is above us, and the Husband is above the Wife. We are the Temple of God, His Spirit lives in us. We should know Him. Hope I didn't miss something, if I did I will get back with you.
Peace and Love Mrs.
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