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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 16 2007,10:08) to all….I think the concept of indwelling is not fully realized. God truly indwelled Jesus, was living in the same body as Jesus was, a body is like a house you can have different people living in the same house. Jesus was living in His body and so was the Father, but just like another person living with you in your house is not you . So it was with Jesus' body. There were event times when The Farther spoke directly through the mouth of Jesus. Like when He said destory this temple and in three days I (GOD) will raise it up. That nwas the Father first person speaking through Jesus . Peace to all…..gene
And when He said “If you love me keep MY Commandments”.Good point Gene
Quote a body is like a house you can have different people living in the same house. Our body is the temple of the holy Spirit of God. Our spirit's are not at all like a house that can have different people living in the very same house. If we had different spirit's living in our temple (our body), then we would be possessed, and not in a good way!
God is one person, the Father. Jesus is one person, the man from Nazareth. I am one person, Mandy from WA State. Now, does the spirit of the Father “indwell” all of us at the same time? Yes! That is how we can be one with the Father AND one with each other at the same time….through the indwelling of God's spirit.
Quote Jesus was living in His body and so was the Father, but just like another person living with you in your house is not you . So it was with Jesus' body. Brother, with all due respect, this is a strange theology. I would really encourage you to find scriptures where this idea of dual possesion of one body is being taught. It sounds strange to my ears, and there is a good reason for this – I have not read it in scripture. Beware that you may be contemplating “another Jesus” at this point.
Quote There were event times when The Farther spoke directly through the mouth of Jesus. Like when He said destory this temple and in three days I (GOD) will raise it up. There are times when the Father speaks through me as well. I have given various prophesies under the Spirits guidance; however, that does not mean that the Father is sharing my body. Nor does it mean that the Father was sharing Jesus' body. There is simply no scripture to substantiate such a claim as body-sharing.
Hello 942,
What I was trying to ask was the WORD that came forth directly from God in the beginning is now clothed in human flesh which is Christ Jesus, does that make him different in entity and essence then the Father?
I know that Christ is his own person and that the Father is the Almighty God, and in the beginning God spoke things into an existence through his Words.
When I read the eternity of wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31
Wisdom is in God in the beginning of all things and creation, Wisdom can not be seperated from God because it's God's Mind, it's his Spirit.Therefore reading Proverbs, God ALONE is the Creator of the universe and everything unseen and visible are created by God alone.
So I'm wondering if Christ existed WITH God in the beginning then what was his place or was he predistined through God's Words because God's Good creation became Bad after the fall of man?
So therfore is the Man Jesus of Nazarene is liken to a VESSEL or a Holy Temple for God's Spirit to dwell IN ?
So is He really the Word of God, or that he is a Tarbenacle that Holds the Spirit if God?
Because I know he often said in scriptures the words that he speaks of are not his But him that sent him.
Was Christ a Spirit before he was sent or was he only in the Mind of God and was brought forth in the fulness of time?
Quote (seeking the truth @ Sep. 16 2007,11:43) Hello 942, What I was trying to ask was the WORD that came forth directly from God in the beginning is now clothed in human flesh which is Christ Jesus, does that make him different in entity and essence then the Father?
I know that Christ is his own person and that the Father is the Almighty God, and in the beginning God spoke things into an existence through his Words.
When I read the eternity of wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31
Wisdom is in God in the beginning of all things and creation, Wisdom can not be seperated from God because it's God's Mind, it's his Spirit.Therefore reading Proverbs, God ALONE is the Creator of the universe and everything unseen and visible are created by God alone.
So I'm wondering if Christ existed WITH God in the beginning then what was his place or was he predistined through God's Words because God's Good creation became Bad after the fall of man?
So therfore is the Man Jesus of Nazarene is liken to a VESSEL or a Holy Temple for God's Spirit to dwell IN ?
So is He really the Word of God, or that he is a Tarbenacle that Holds the Spirit if God?
Because I know he often said in scriptures the words that he speaks of are not his But him that sent him.
Was Christ a Spirit before he was sent or was he only in the Mind of God and was brought forth in the fulness of time?
Hi ST:I believe these questions that you are asking may be answered in the threads of John 1:1 and Pre-existence.
And so, I will give you a brief answer below and refer you there for more indepth answers to your questions, and if you have further questions afterwards, please ask.Briefly, As you say God alone is the creator. His plan in the beginning was to make man in His own image. The first man was made a living soul, like God, a living person with a mind, a free will, and emotions, the last Adam, our Lord Jesus, was made a life-giving spirit. His spirit was formed as learned to apply the Word of God to his daily life. My understanding is that he did not pre-exist his virgin birth, but was foreordained (1 Peter 1:20). He is a different entity from the Father. He is a man, but since he was conceived by the Holy Ghost. He is God's own flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God our Father who indwelt him as well as us to teach him His Word, and he (Jesus) was perfected through obedience to the Word of God (his personality or spirit was formed through obedience to the Word of God) and God has spoken to humanity through him. (John 14:7-11, Hebrews 1:1-3, Hebrews 5:7-9) He is the Word of God in that God has spoken to humanity through him and he as obeyed this Word without sin even unto death on the cross.
I haven't answered your questions here perhaps you will find the answers to your questions in the threads that I mentioned, but if not, please ask and I'll try to help.
God Bless
not3in1…..> first of all I did not say our spitits were like a house, I said our bodies were like a House in which different people can live in.God conceders our (bodies) as Temples He can indwell. And a body can have many spirits living in it, and some can even take over the body it lives in, there are many examples in the bible of this. Jesus plainly said the Father was in Him . When he talked about the unclean spirit leaving a man, it was like a man cleanning his house, but the unclean spirit came back and brought other worse than him, and the last state of that man was worse then the first. If your are thinking i am saying the spirit is the house I am not saying that. hope this helped…..gene.
Not3in1…..> If this mind be (IN) you which was also in Christ Jesus our lord. Where was that mind if not in Jesus body with him. And why would have been said destory this temple and in three days (I) will raise (IT) up. There are three or four places where it say's God rasied Jesus , not that Jesus raised himself, it was God in Him speaking shareing his body with Him. remember it say's God is Spirit. God's Spirit is GOD the Father. Thats why Jesus said the Father (IS) in me. How was in him, He was cohabbating with Jesus in His body with him. Remember Jesus said the Father who was in Him did the works. …peace to you and yours…..gene
Quote (seeking the truth @ Sep. 16 2007,11:43) Hello 942, What I was trying to ask was the WORD that came forth directly from God in the beginning is now clothed in human flesh which is Christ Jesus, does that make him different in entity and essence then the Father?
I know that Christ is his own person and that the Father is the Almighty God, and in the beginning God spoke things into an existence through his Words.
When I read the eternity of wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31
Wisdom is in God in the beginning of all things and creation, Wisdom can not be seperated from God because it's God's Mind, it's his Spirit.Therefore reading Proverbs, God ALONE is the Creator of the universe and everything unseen and visible are created by God alone.
So I'm wondering if Christ existed WITH God in the beginning then what was his place or was he predistined through God's Words because God's Good creation became Bad after the fall of man?
So therfore is the Man Jesus of Nazarene is liken to a VESSEL or a Holy Temple for God's Spirit to dwell IN ?
So is He really the Word of God, or that he is a Tarbenacle that Holds the Spirit if God?
Because I know he often said in scriptures the words that he speaks of are not his But him that sent him.
Was Christ a Spirit before he was sent or was he only in the Mind of God and was brought forth in the fulness of time?
Seeking,You are asking all the questions that we are pondering here. There are no quick answers. I believe that is why 94 is pointing you to various threads here. It takes time to seek the Father out. It takes time to ask the questions and wait on the Father for the answers. This is work for you to do. I've been asking some of the same questions you are asking and have been studying for nearly 4 years now (night and day). I believe the Lord has imparted some truth to me, but I am still learning. HeavenNet is my classroom and I am an attentive pupil. I encourage you to log some hours here as well.
Jesus is the Son of God. As the Son, he was conceived and born to Mary. It is my belief that Jesus did not preexist prior to his birth anymore than I preexisted mine. That said, I do believe that the plan of Jesus preexisted, much like the plan for me preexisted. The OT is full of prophesies fortelling his coming.
John 1:1 tells us that the Word was with God. But it is my feeling that the “Word” became Jesus – not the other way around. Anyway, this is an awesome study. God bless you as you SEEK him out.
Love,
MandyYou say…
Quote
Jesus called the firstborn? This one should be easy; if you have children you have a firstborn, boy or girl doesn’t matter. Jesus did not become his father’s son when he was born of Mary; because that was not the moment he received life. His existence goes all the way back to creation;You are correct in that Yeshua pre-existed all things.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Mic 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”However, could you please present scripture that says Jesus was a son before he was born a son.
You say, “Jesus did not become his Fathers son when he was born of Mary”.
The scriptures say…
Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Jesus was not a Son who was born a Son. That would be 2 births or better termed “Reincarnation”.
He wasnt the second Adam untill he came in the flesh!
He was the “Word that was with God, and the Word that was God”. He existed with the Father as (the Image of God), Col 1:15, not (an Image of God), and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man. Jn 1:14, Phil 2:6-8, 1 Tim 3:16.
Note: If our image of God is not God then we have a false image of him.
However for a time we see him as a little lower than the Angels but is now returned to the previous Glory of the Father which he shared as God, only now as God in the flesh, God and man.
Since we know that the Word was God and that God cannot change then we know that Yeshua is God in the flesh. Col 2:9
GB
You say…
Quote
So it was with Jesus' body. There were event times when The Farther spoke directly through the mouth of Jesus. Like when He said destory this temple and in three days I (GOD) will raise it up. That nwas the Father first person speaking through Jesus . Peace to all…..geneJn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.Jesus nor the writer John here makes mention of Jesus words being the Father speaking here.
It is true that Jesus in submission to his Father never Spoke without his Father. But we have many examples in scripture where Jesus had the power to do the works.
This is his relationship with the Father…
Jn 5:19 NASB
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.Jesus is not just some empty shell the Father just worked through and spoke through. What man can say what ever he sees the Father do he can do?
Jesus plainly says he can raise his body (his temple) from the dead.
Jn 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.Notice: It says this “Commandment”, not power. He had the “OK” authority from the Father. Who else could make this claim? Its clear that Jesus said he would raise his temple, his body, yet we also know that God the Father raises him.
If you take the scriptures as they read, and Jesus is not God, then you do have a contradiction. The Trinity solves this problem. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit which also took part in the ressurection, is God!
Not3
You say…
Quote
Is the Father also cohabitating in your body like he did Jesus' body?2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Jn 14:23
[I] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.These scriptures do not need any special interpretation.
To all. The Trinitarian doctrine is found in the whole of all of the scriptures. It is the only way to reconcile all the scriptures without contradictions.
Blessings
seeking the truth and Mandy There are some clear cut scriptures that show me that Jesus did exsisted before He became Man.
John 1:1 In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE>”
verse 16 ” FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN, AND THAT ARE IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE….”Rev. 3:14 ” ,,,,THESE THINGS SAITH THE AMEN, THE TRUE WITNESS, THE BEGINNING OF ALL CREATION
OF GOD.”
Unless you can come up with some explanation what these scriptures mean I will believe that Jesus existed before the world was.Peace and Love Mrs.
The Son of man could not have existed he wasn't born yet.
But the WORD that was in the Son of man existed from the beginning. In the beginning was the Word.Was the “Word” God's Son? Was the Word a “begotten Son”?
The Son of man was filled with GOD.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2007,01:55) To all. The Trinitarian doctrine is found in the whole of all of the scriptures. It is the only way to reconcile all the scriptures without contradictions. Blessings
Hey WJ,The trinity is not the only way to reconcile all the scriptures, but it is the most popular way amongst mainstream Christianity. The fact is, there are still many problems with the trinity doctrine because if you say God is all three then when you have the many verses that include God and Yeshua in a verse, can we insert the Jesus where God is? I'll give you but a few examples with Jesus substituted — since you say Jesus is God — because the verse does not specify the Father:
Mat 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living Jesus, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY Jesus, MY Jesus, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of Jesus.
Mar 5:7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High Jesus? I implore You by Jesus, do not torment me!”
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except Jesus alone.
Mar 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of Jesus.
Jhn 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of Jesus!”
Jhn 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from Jesus as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless Jesus is with him.”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of Jesus, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If Jesus were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from Jesus, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Jhn 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true Jesus, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Jhn 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of Jesus; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Act 2:32 “This Jesus Jesus raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 3:13 “The Jesus of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Jesus of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
Act 5:30 “The Jesus of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of Jesus, and Jesus standing at the right hand of Jesus;
Of course I could go on for pages, but you see where there is already an issue? And I know that the Father is implied in these verses, but your statement that scripture is only reconciled with God as a trinity is not quite correct. It still has alot of issues.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 16 2007,16:52) Gene, Is the Father also cohabitating in your body like he did Jesus' body?
Not3in1……> yes the Father does dwell in those who have His Spirit in them. Dosn't it say He workes (in) us to Will and do His good pleasure. God conceders our bodies temples He and Us dwell in. Your mind has a WILL and Gods mind has a WILL. And they are not the same, And there are times when these are contary to one another and as we give up our WILLS and DO God's WILL we are putting ourselves to death. Jesus plainly said the Father was in Him, but again that does not mean He is the Father like the trinitarians believe. All who are lead by the Fathers Spirit, have the Father in them and are Son's of the and ONLY living GOD. When we recieved the HOLY SPIRIT we became YOKED to the Father Just like Jesus was, when GOD said THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU, not sometime in the past as preexistance would inply. We are so blessed to have our Father in us. We should never seperate Jesus from our exact idenity by thinking he is something other than we are. And the same God indwell us Just like He does Jesus and we are Son's and Daughter's of The Most High Just like our BROTHER JESUS is. God The Father is SPIRIT and that Spirit can indwell US just like Jesus.Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 17 2007,02:46) The Son of man could not have existed he wasn't born yet.
But the WORD that was in the Son of man existed from the beginning. In the beginning was the Word.Was the “Word” God's Son? Was the Word a “begotten Son”?
The Son of man was filled with GOD.
Kenrch……> Good point, thats the way i see it also. The words (became flesh) Should be (came to be) in flesh, infact thats what the meanning of became means. God who was and is the Word came to in the Flesh Body of Jesus By cohabiting with Jesus in Jesus' body. It's so simple if you just take the words for Just what the word means, and listen to what Jesus himself said. He himself clearly explains it. Jesus plainly said the words he spoke wern't His, So simple logic would tell you He Wasn't the WORD. Because he spoke God's WORDS does not make HIM the words he spoke. He plainly said that……> peace brother……geneChrist was the Son long before He became Jesus in the flesh. Scriptures I just gave proves that.
Again if you have an explanation FOR THOSE SCRIPTURES I GAVE, NOT YOURS. I will see If I can prove otherwise.
The Word was a Spirit, the Spokesman of God and yes He was the Son of God then already. God the Father gave Him Life. He was not created out of the dust of the earth then. He came forth from God. Making Him the Son of God. While we are the adopted Sons of God. He was the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURES. is PRETTY PLAIN TO SEE, I THINK.Col 1:18 ” And He is the Head of the body , the church; who is the beginning, the firstborn ,the firstborn of the dead ; that in all He will have preeminence. Preeminence means first in all.
From the James Moffat Bible
Prov. 8:22 THE ETERNAL FORMED ME FIRST OF HIS CREATION, FIRST OF ALL HIS WORKS IN DAYS OF OLD;”
verse 23 I WAS FASHIONED IN THE EARNIEST AGES, FROM THE VERY FIRST, WHEN EARTH BEGAN;”
VERSE 24 ” I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WAS NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE NO FOINTAINS FULL OF WATER.
VERSE 25 ” ERE HE SUNK THE BASESOF THE MOUNTAINS, ERE THE HILLS EXSISTED I WAS BORN
VERSE 26 '” AND EARTH AND FIELDS WERE NOT CREATED NOR THE VERY FIRST CLODS OF THE WORLD
VERSE 27 ” WHEN HE SET THE HEAVEN UP, I WAS THERE, WHEN HE DREW THE VAULT O'ER THE ABYSS.”
verse 28 ” WHEN HE MADE THE COUDS FIRM OVERHEAD, WHEN HE FIXED THE FOUNTAINS OF THE EARTH;”
verse 29 ” WHEN HE SET THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SEA, WHEN HE LAID FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH;”
verse 30 ” I WAS WITH HIM THEN, HIS FOSTER CHILD, I WAS HIS DELIGHT DAY AFTER DAY, PLAYING IN HIS PRESENCE CONSTANTLY.”I just cannot ignore all these scriptures and still say that Jesus was not there before He became a man.
But again Prove all things
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2007,18:55) Not3 You say…Quote
Is the Father also cohabitating in your body like he did Jesus' body?
2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Jn 14:23
[I] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.These scriptures do not need any special interpretation.
WJ,Yes, thank you, I agree with what you are saying here. The reason I asked Gene the odd question was because I believe he is thinking that Jesus was not his own person. I was just trying to clarify that. I wondered for instance, if he believed that the person of the Father was in fact, working through Jesus' body only. This belief is to deny the Son. I've heard it before, and I just wanted to make sure this wasn't Gene's belief.
But I do believe that God's holy spirit lives in us and through us – not occupying our bodies (as in the body snatcher's), but working through us. In other words, living in us – not actually taking over who we are.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2007,04:29) God The Father is SPIRIT and that Spirit can indwell US just like Jesus
Bro Gene – Amen. I believe I understand you now. Thanks for all the clarification.Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 16 2007,19:04) seeking the truth and Mandy There are some clear cut scriptures that show me that Jesus did exsisted before He became Man. John 1:1 In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE>”
verse 16 ” FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN, AND THAT ARE IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE….”Rev. 3:14 ” ,,,,THESE THINGS SAITH THE AMEN, THE TRUE WITNESS, THE BEGINNING OF ALL CREATION
OF GOD.”
Unless you can come up with some explanation what these scriptures mean I will believe that Jesus existed before the world was.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs.,Yes, I also believe that the Son existed before he was born; however, the way he existed is the debate here. Most will conceed that “Jesus” existed in some capacity before his earthly/fleshly birth. The scriptures lend themselves to a variety of theories, I have found. So, to be perfectly honest with you……this is one area that I continue to pray about and seek the Father for answers about. Thank you for your input on this, I appreciate all interpretations surrounding preexistence (it's one of my favorite topics).
Im4truth…..> what hope would we have of being like Jesus if we think He was a superbeing on the level of God or higher level then us weak humans. Could I really believe I could atain to the (fullmeasure) of a super prexisted being. What point Did God prove by taking a being who wasen't ever capiable of sinning like me and him living a perfect human life, whats proven by that. Satan want's people to think that way, thats why he created an image of Jesus being God, because it seperates Jesus from our exact likeness , so in our hearts we don't really look at Jesus as really like us. If you give Jesus all these advantages over us then what did he prove, a perfect being lived a perfect life, O well perfect beings can do that no big deal. But if He came into an existence the same way we do and was tempted the same way and never sinned, I can have hope of doing the same thing by doing it the way He did. People who push preexistence of a super human being are in fact pushing Jesus away from themselves and giving Jesus advantages he did not have. Jesus is the second (MAN) Adam, just like the first man Adam only with God's Spirit over came sin. Thats the only difference between Jesus and Adam. Peter say's he was (forordained) not for existing and was (Manafested) brougth in to existence in (OUR) time. Jesus was in the plan of God before the foundation of the world. God already know whta He was going to do and at the proper time He put His plan into action. There is no preexistence activity of Jesus mentioned in the scriptures. Trinitarians force the text to make it come out that way. And using the wisdom text as repersentive of Jesus is also forcing text. If Jesus was this perfect being you are portraying then who could he have learned obedience by the things he suffered, he would already would have known that. And where it say's Christ was the rock that followed them in the wilderness, the word christ should be rendered the Annointing . again the trinitarian scribes forcing texts. Notice it didn't say Jesus follow them did it. They also did that with John1:1 text.
In my opinion Jesus is not GOD and did Not preexisit either. Just my opinion……geneGen You are forgetting that He became a Man, and second of all without Jesus we would have no hope.
Where did I ever say that Christ was a super being above God? You got to be kidding me.THE FATHER IS GREATER THEN JESUS. That is what I say.
You seem confused to me. The Angel were spirit beings, the Father created Jesus or the Word first so He has preeminent in all. ( first) I have given so many scriptures. Look at the Post on the preexisting it is all in there too.
I know how hard it was for me when somebody told me about this revelation. I said no way. Over some years the subject came up again, and now I see.
All I can say to you pray about it and have an open mind so the Holy Spirit can work with you. You will know when, it all of a sudden clicks in your mind, that is how it happens to me. You might read a scripture two or three times and miss, and then the third time:” Gee I did not see that before, and you get it.”Peace and Love Mrs.
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