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WJ,
Surely the fruit of the Spirit is working in you and evident to me.I believe that we are all passionate about the truth given to us by God. This is the way it should be. But I caution those who place labels on our brother's and sister's because the Lord is able to make them stand. It is God who calls. It is God who teaches us all truth. I believe one of the most important jobs we have been given is to get along with one another, even to love one another deeply….
WJ and Gene – you are my brothers and I love you both. Trinitarian or Unitarian, matter's not to me this morning; you are my brother's in Christ and he died for us all.
Galations 6:9, 10
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Hi all : Jesus was praying and speaking to whom ? himself or his God the Father in John 17.
[QUOTE]1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Ps. 41.9
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
What is more important, the subject of trinity ? or prayer ?
God bless…………………..thehappyman
You say…
Quote
What is more important, the subject of trinity ? or prayer ?
God bless…………………..We must know who and what we are praying to.
If I as a man said on the phone I would like for you to meet my Son for he is my image, the express image of my person. But you have never seen me! However you agree to meet him.
But then someone said… BTW his son is not human he is a dog! So someone introduces you to a dog and says this is his son. Looking at the dog would you see the image of the man you were talking to?
The most important thing is to know “who and what” God is.
Jesus is the “image of the invisible God”. If I imagine the “image of God” as being less than God then I no longer see God. I have made an image of God of my own.
Why is it so hard for men to see that the word God is a title that describes a class of being. It is a plural word.
My son and I are not the same person but we are both 100% human. My wife and I are not the same person but we are “One Flesh”!
Plurality of oneness is found in the building blocks of all creation. The creation reveals the Glory of God.
Jn 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father (God), and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me (God), Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father (God)?No mere man could ever make this statement.
Jesus spoke in parables very often.
He that hath ears to hear let him hear!
Blessings!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2007,10:23) Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 11 2007,14:24) WJ I do not understand why you are going on and on about Jesus being God! In
Ephesians 4:4-6 it states that there is one Body, one Spirit(Holy) one Lord(Jesus) one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND THROUGH US ALL, AND IN US ALL.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Im4truth…..> all trinitarians are here for only one purpose and that is to destory those who God has reveald the truth to. They follow the teachings of the lying Anthanas their forefather who taught the lies and false relegious practices long ago, Just look at their History, all the torching and Blood Shed all in the name of their perverted religion. Claiming to be of God, but followers of Satan and the twist of the simple truth to their own destruction.
Well did Jude prophesy of these saying they have went the way of Cain and have run greedily in the error of Balam and will perish in the error of Kora.
I say to all do not give in to these decieved liers they are only here to destory the truth. Hold on to the truth God has given us, because greater is He thats in US than who is in them. Remember Jesus words FOR (THOU) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> it's just that simple. And remember Jesus also Said (HIS) GOD AND (OUR) GOD (HIS) FATHER AND (OUR) FATHER. That brings us along side Him in relationship to The Father. Do Not by the LIE they progenate that Jesus is the Almighty God Himself. This simple is a LIE…….Peace to all that do not hold to these false teaching of the trinitarians…….gene
Gene,I cannot agree with you in much of this. I do not believe in the slightest that people like WJ and Is 1:18 (who has not been seen in some time, is he really Nick Hassan's alter ego? J/K) have any other agenda in debating the trinity than supporting what they truly believe. Now CultBuster may be a different story…
In any case, it is God who will reveal the truth of who He truly is, and all we call do is show why we believe the way we do. From there, it is up to the Spirit to direct.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2007,12:53) thehappyman You say…
Quote
What is more important, the subject of trinity ? or prayer ?
God bless…………………..We must know who and what we are praying to.
But we do, WJ. Yeshua told us to pray to the Father, and that is what matters. We are not to pray to Christ, but we may approach God's throne in His Son's name. He told us we could ask anything in his name!Quote If I as a man said on the phone I would like for you to meet my Son for he is my image, the express image of my person. But you have never seen me! However you agree to meet him. But then someone said… BTW his son is not human he is a dog! So someone introduces you to a dog and says this is his son. Looking at the dog would you see the image of the man you were talking to?
The most important thing is to know “who and what” God is.
Jesus is the “image of the invisible God”. If I imagine the “image of God” as being less than God then I no longer see God. I have made an image of God of my own.
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
1Cr 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
'Nuff said.
Quote Why is it so hard for men to see that the word God is a title that describes a class of being. It is a plural word. My son and I are not the same person but we are both 100% human. My wife and I are not the same person but we are “One Flesh”!
But you are all born of two human parents, male and female. So yes, you are all human. But Yeshua was born of the Holy Spirit and Mary, so one Spirit parent and one human parent. The Father has no parents and is all Spirit.
Quote Plurality of oneness is found in the building blocks of all creation. The creation reveals the Glory of God. Jn 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father (God), and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me (God), Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father (God)?No mere man could ever make this statement.
If I had never met a man's father and didn't have a picture, I would have to get to know that person's father via his son, right? It is the same way with God and Christ: we cannot see the invisible God, but men saw His Son. And now we today have seen neither, but we know that he was made like his brethren in every wayHbr 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
How can he be made like us in ALL things if he is God? Are we also God then, because it does not say he was made like us in all ways but one, his deity.
Quote Jesus spoke in parables very often. He that hath ears to hear let him hear!
Blessings!
Same to you, WJ!to all….> i NEED TO GET SOMTHING STRAIGHT HERE….I do not hate WJ, Isiaha3:18 OR CULT BUSTER either. I do hate what they are provacating. Jesus said he hated the deeds of the Necoloiatians, he didn't say he hated them. What these trinitarians are spreading are lies against the word of God and I know they don't realize it, but nevertheless it is against the word of God. And it does show where they are at, and it seams to be against all sound logic expressed here on this site.I may of come across a little hard but so did Jude…….. and, I don't hate anyone,……..Peace to all who love the truth….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 12 2007,08:51) to all….> i NEED TO GET SOMTHING STRAIGHT HERE….I do not hate WJ, Isiaha3:18 OR CULT BUSTER either. I do hate what they are provacating. Jesus said he hated the deeds of the Necoloiatians, he didn't say he hated them. What these trinitarians are spreading are lies against the word of God and I know they don't realize it, but nevertheless it is against the word of God. And it does show where they are at, and it seams to be against all sound logic expressed here on this site.I may of come across a little hard but so did Jude…….. and, I don't hate anyone,……..Peace to all who love the truth….gene
But you see GB.I also believe you are spreading lies against the word of God and you dont realize it
So where does that put us? Do you have “Exclusive truth”?
Is your “theology” so much purer than the millions that disagree with you?
Who makes you the judge over mens hearts by making statements like…
Quote all trinitarians are here for only one purpose and that is to destory those who God has reveald the truth to. The thing is GB. I Believe Jesus is the “Monogenes” 'Unique' Son of God also. I have been born again and saved by the blood of the Lamb and filled with the Holy Spirit of Truth for 33 years.
I dont believe in the Jesus you do, but I will not be a judge of your heart nor your relationship with God.
Lk 9:49
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.When a person confesses Jesus as their Lord and is born again then as believers we should seek for the unity of the Spirit untill we all come to the unity of the faith!
So again GB, I wish you the very best in your walk with God and journey for the truth!
Blessings
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 12 2007,05:53) Why is it so hard for men to see that the word God is a title that describes a class of being. It is a plural word. My son and I are not the same person but we are both 100% human. My wife and I are not the same person but we are “One Flesh”!
God is not defined as God because of his class. For God shares his nature and qualities with others willingly.God is God because he is the Father of all. He is the source of all. He is the Almighty.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Kejonn…..> could expand further on what you have come up with on the name
GOD and I think t8 has some good thoughts on this also, What i have read here seams to go along with Sir Isacc Newtons theology also and I am seening it more that way to. He says that the term God is an expression of dominion or authority. Fore instance the term The Allmighty God would repersent the One and Only God Jesus was talking about and lesser gods could be judges rulers ect. would like more of your and t8's input on this.t8…..> if we apply the term true God doesent that exclude all others, remember Jesus said thou art the (only) true God. to me isn't Jesus saying their are no others true God”s, so all others are not God's in any real sence. Maybe we have make believe God's but for Us their is only one true GOD and thats the FAther. would like to know your thoughts on this….gene
WJ,
I have a question for you: what do you do with the beginning of most of the letters that begin by Paul giving thanks to God the Father and to Jesus Christ the Lord? Sometimes it even says, “God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ” and so on. The letters never include the *person* called the Holy Spirit! What do you think of that? If there is equality in the Godhead, certainly all three would be included in this greetings? This is something I pondered at the beginning of my Trinity study years ago…… It was one of the first things that made me go, “Hmmmmmmm…..”Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2007,18:50) Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 11 2007,17:39) First of all I will be greatly suprised to learn that “we” can do greater things than Y'shua Messiah, I would like you to post Scripture to back that claim up. I do not believe that for a second. And, NO I do not believe Y'shua IS YHWH. I believe Y'shua was given the whole of YHWH's Spirit, so that He could be here in Elohim's place. The two are one in His Spirit.
John 14:12-14
John 14-12 tells me that He is YHWH, and He will do greater works than these, because Y'shua does His Father's works, so if you think Y'shua did some amazing things, they come from His Father, and there is more to come.Hope you are helped by this truth.
Laurel
WJ Like to add my two sense. The first thing that impressed me was about the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity, that would make Him the Father of Jesus. Then in so many places Jesus says that the Father is greater then I . The Father is above all. Period and Amen.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2007,10:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 12 2007,05:53) Why is it so hard for men to see that the word God is a title that describes a class of being. It is a plural word. My son and I are not the same person but we are both 100% human. My wife and I are not the same person but we are “One Flesh”!
God is not defined as God because of his class. For God shares his nature and qualities with others willingly.God is God because he is the Father of all. He is the source of all. He is the Almighty.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Thank you T8!!
LaurelQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 12 2007,10:58) Kejonn…..> could expand further on what you have come up with on the name
GOD and I think t8 has some good thoughts on this also, What i have read here seams to go along with Sir Isacc Newtons theology also and I am seening it more that way to. He says that the term God is an expression of dominion or authority. Fore instance the term The Allmighty God would repersent the One and Only God Jesus was talking about and lesser gods could be judges rulers ect. would like more of your and t8's input on this.
I found this:
Gad: Apart from Gad the son of Jacob, there was another Gad. The astrologers of Babel called Jupiter (Zeus) Gad. He was also well known among the Cananites where his name was often coupled with Ba'al, Ba'al Gad, which according to the Massoretic vowel pointing in the book of Joshua is pronounced: Ba'al God. This same name is discovered in the ancient Germanic languages as Gott, Goda, Gode, God, Gud, Gade. And searching further back into it's Indo-Germanic (Indo-European) roots, we find that it traces back to the word GHODH, which means “union”, even “sexual union”. No wonder this meaning is still evident in the Dutch and German “gade”. It is also not difficult to see in English “gadfly” and “gadding about.”
God: See GadQuote (Laurel @ Sep. 12 2007,16:44) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2007,18:50) Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 11 2007,17:39) First of all I will be greatly suprised to learn that “we” can do greater things than Y'shua Messiah, I would like you to post Scripture to back that claim up. I do not believe that for a second. And, NO I do not believe Y'shua IS YHWH. I believe Y'shua was given the whole of YHWH's Spirit, so that He could be here in Elohim's place. The two are one in His Spirit.
John 14:12-14
John 14-12 tells me that He is YHWH, and He will do greater works than these, because Y'shua does His Father's works, so if you think Y'shua did some amazing things, they come from His Father, and there is more to come.Hope you are helped by this truth.
Laurel
Hi Sister,Jesus is the one who is talking in the John 14:12 passage. Jesus is God's Son. He tells us that if we believe in him we will do greater things than he [because he goes to his Father]. Of course we know that God works through everyone and it is by the power of God that men are able to perform miracles and so on.
But it is Jesus who tells us that if we have faith, we can do what he did – and more!
John 14:12
“…anyone who has faith….will do what I have done…..he will do even greater things than these…….”
Clearly it is the Father who works in all, and who would work in us to this very day if we would have faith. Are we greater than Jesus because of this? Certainly not! However, I believe the main thrust of the message Jesus was teaching was that because he goes to the Father – the Spirit would come and work through all in an amazing way and a massive way (no longer man to man, but potentially worldwide as we are seeing now). In this way, our work in passing the gospel along is greater than Jesus' because he was only able to go on foot from town to town, for instance.
I hope I have made sense here – I can barely hear my own thoughts over the hammering in the next room (home remodel).
To all……>in the book of Hebrews it states a quotation from plsams where David say's, “what is man that thou art mindfull of him, the son of man that you care for him, You made him (MAN) a little lower than the angles; You crowned him with glory and honor and put everything under his feet, in putting everything under him (MAN). God left nothing that is not subject to him (man). Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him (man). But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angles, (just like we are) now crowned with glory and hornor (because) he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he (Jesus), might taste death for everyone. In bringing many son's to glory, it was fitting that
GOD, for whom and through whom (everything exists), should make the Author of their salvation (Jesus) perfect through suffering,”.Why is he refered to as the author of our salvation, isn't it because he worte the book so to speak, by demonstrating how to live and have a right relationship with God The Father. If he were GOD, how could he be (MADE) perfect, he would already been perfect. “Both the one who makes men holy (GOD) and those who are (Made Holy) Us and Jesus are of the (SAME) family. So that Jesus is not ashamed to call them (Brothers), He says, I will declare your name to my brothers, in the npresence of the congregation, I will sing your praises. And again “I (Jesus) will put my trust in Him (GOD), who was Jesus putting his trust in, was it his self or God. Here Jesus identifies with us as brothers and with God as His God. In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary to go to (my brothers) and tell them ” I am going to my God and Your God to My Father and Your Father, Here Jesus plainly uses an equal comparison with God The Father as ours. and related with us as brothers of his. Doesn't it say ” Brethern (NOW) we are the son's of God and (joint heirs) with Christ,” and again, “if the Spirit of him (God) who rasied Christ from the Dead be in you, it will quicken (bring to life) our mortal bodies also”, Just like it did Jesus.How plain can it get. Jesus is exactly like US……..there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD thats all there every was and thats all there ever will be. ……….Just the way i see it………Love and peace to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear…gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 13 2007,04:07) Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 12 2007,16:44) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2007,18:50) Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 11 2007,17:39) First of all I will be greatly suprised to learn that “we” can do greater things than Y'shua Messiah, I would like you to post Scripture to back that claim up. I do not believe that for a second. And, NO I do not believe Y'shua IS YHWH. I believe Y'shua was given the whole of YHWH's Spirit, so that He could be here in Elohim's place. The two are one in His Spirit.
John 14:12-14
John 14-12 tells me that He is YHWH, and He will do greater works than these, because Y'shua does His Father's works, so if you think Y'shua did some amazing things, they come from His Father, and there is more to come.Hope you are helped by this truth.
Laurel
Hi Sister,Jesus is the one who is talking in the John 14:12 passage. Jesus is God's Son. He tells us that if we believe in him we will do greater things than he [because he goes to his Father]. Of course we know that God works through everyone and it is by the power of God that men are able to perform miracles and so on.
But it is Jesus who tells us that if we have faith, we can do what he did – and more!
John 14:12
“…anyone who has faith….will do what I have done…..he will do even greater things than these…….”
Clearly it is the Father who works in all, and who would work in us to this very day if we would have faith. Are we greater than Jesus because of this? Certainly not! However, I believe the main thrust of the message Jesus was teaching was that because he goes to the Father – the Spirit would come and work through all in an amazing way and a massive way (no longer man to man, but potentially worldwide as we are seeing now). In this way, our work in passing the gospel along is greater than Jesus' because he was only able to go on foot from town to town, for instance.
I hope I have made sense here – I can barely hear my own thoughts over the hammering in the next room (home remodel).
Hi Not3in1 and Laurel:The following quote is from JFB Commentary relative to “greater works then these”:
Quote His miracles the apostles wrought, though wholly in His name and by His power, and the “greater” works–not in degree but in kind–were the conversion of thousands in a day, by His Spirit accompanying them. God Bless
WorshippingJesus;
You state that you are so concerned about all the ones that are being lead astray by arianism or other doctrines. Am I correct? Your intent is, therefore, to help prevent deception. What would you say about applying the same critique to what you believe?
Let's pause a moment and briefly state what you believe-the trinity. There are three eternal persons in one God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equal. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all co-existent or co-eternal. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are virtually all one God in three persons.
Lets check out the first claim against scripture. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equal. Christ said that his Father was greater than he. This is an express statement from the Son of God. The trinity doctrine holds otherwise WJ and you know so very well. You rationalize and twist scripture and add your little twist about how Christ just said that because he was the Messiah. You like to do that WJ because you have learned to do it so much you have to make all these twists to read one page of the gospel. Back to all three persons being equal. Does the Father worship the Son? No. Does the Father seek to please the Son? No. Does the Father keep the Son's commandments? No. Is the reverse true of any or all of these statements? yes This is actually a very old set of questions WJ that you find very annoying because you know it exposes the falsehood of the trinity doctrine. The Father and the Son are not equal and have never been equal and Christ will always be subject to the Father as he has always been. Before you start accusing others of being misleading and deceived you should try answering some fundamental questions as these with respect to what you believe. You might be surprised to find you need a little enlightenment yourself.
I'll take time for the second prong. All three persons of the Godhead are eternally co-existent according to the trinity. This is perhaps the more difficult concept to untwist.
When we read the gospel of John we read Jesus saying that he knew the Father before the world was. This makes him the Son of God before the world was, not just the Word of God. Christ said he came down from heaven and would ascend up to where he was before. The essence of his message was that the Father sent him, not that he was the Father. Neither came he of his own will, but was sent. A person has a will, but a word does not. Therefore, Christ was the Son of God in heaven before coming to earth. I'm sure we're are in agreement on that point. Where the trinity deviates from scripture is on the claim of eternal sonship. Christ's very title, Son of God, denotes a beginning that is abundantly expressed in scripture, even though the precise day in eternity past of Christ beginning is unrevealed. We do know there was a time when the Lord swear and would not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, without beginning of days or end of life. It could be for that very truth that the beginning of Christ as his Son appears to support an eternal sonship, but the title Son of God requires that Christ was also begotten by God. The scripture does say he is our priest without beginning of days so I can at least understand those who believe in eternal sonship even though they have a tendency to disregard the title-Son of God- countless times in the new testament including by the Father himself.
Finally, the whole notion of three persons and one God is not found in scripture. God is one. The Son of God is his Son. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God acting solely for the purpose of the Father and Son with respect to leading and guiding us into all truth. An understanding of all three is necessary but there is a definite order of authority among the three persons.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Sep. 12 2007,18:08) Worshipping Jesus; Back to all three persons being equal. Does the Father worship the Son? No. Does the Father seek to please the Son? No. Does the Father keep the Son's commandments? No. Is the reverse true of any or all of these statements? Yes This is actually a very old set of questions WJ that you find very the world was, not just the Word of God. Christ said he came down from heaven and would ascend up to where he was before. The essence of his message was that the Father sent him, not that he was the Father. Neither came he of his own will, but was sent. A person has a will, but a word does not. Therefore, Christ was the Son of God in heaven before coming to earth. I'm sure we’re in agreement on that point. Where the trinity deviates from scripture is on the claim of eternal sonship. Christ's very title, Son of God, denotes a beginning that is abundantly expressed in scripture, even though the precise day in eternity past of Christ beginning is unrevealed. We do know there was a time when the Lord swear and would not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, without beginning of days or end of life. It could be for that very truth that the beginning of Christ as his Son appears to support an eternal sonship, but the title Son of God requires that Christ was also begotten by God. The scripture does say he is our priest without beginning of days so I can at least understand those who believe in eternal sonship even though they have a tendency to disregard the title-Son of God- countless times in the New Testament including by the Father himself.
This was the only new part of the duplicate posts by Mr. Steve
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