The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2007,17:21)

So is Jesus “a god”?

Thats a closed ended question!

Yes or No!

If men can be theos and the Father is theos, then of course Jesus can be theos.

Theos is applied to God, Jesus, Men, and angels.

I have answered your question many times.

The point is that there is one God of all, who is the Father. Whether you are offended or not makes no difference to the truth because it is written that the Father is even the God of Jesus. So if you say Jesus is Almighty God too, you now have 2 Gods.

You say that Jesus is Almighty God and scripture says that Jesus has a God. So if Jesus is Almighty God, then is his God the Almighty Almighty God?

You see there are contradictions in your doctrine.

September 10, 2007 at 1:06 am#65671

Participant

Jesus is Theos. He is Yahweh. He is worshipped.

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Jesus is Theos. Worship Him

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

September 10, 2007 at 1:52 am#65679

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Sep. 10 2007,13:06)

He is Yahweh. He is worshipped.

If Jesus is Yahweh, then who is Yahweh's son (God's son)?

September 10, 2007 at 1:59 am#65680

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 01 2007,10:11)

Kejonn
You struggle deeply with verses that say “name by which he will be called”. I have listed on several occasions a list of names that had “LORD” or “God” in them, and you have never addressed them. Might I assume that you cannot? For instance, Jehu (look him up) means “Jehovah is he”. By your same logic then, Jehu is also part of the Godhead right?

Kejonn. The struggle is yours. You are struggling to pervert the truth rather than accept the plain words of scripture.

Jesus is Jehovah.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

September 10, 2007 at 2:01 am#65681

Participant

September 10, 2007 at 2:05 am#65682

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2007,17:52)

Quote (Cult Buster @ Sep. 10 2007,13:06)

He is Yahweh. He is worshipped.

If Jesus is Yahweh, then who is Yahweh's son (God's son)?

YAHWEH.

This is where your Jehovah's Witness doctrine falls apart.

Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

September 10, 2007 at 2:15 am#65686

Participant

Yes CultB, we are aware of the perversion of scripture that you promote, but the question is, if Jesus is Yahweh, then who is Yahweh's son?

In case you are not aware, God has a son.

September 10, 2007 at 2:20 am#65687

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Sep. 10 2007,13:59)

Kejonn. The struggle is yours. You are struggling to pervert the truth rather than accept the plain words of scripture.

Jesus is Jehovah.

No he isn't.

Jesus is the son of Jehovah.

You are denying the son.

John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

You must believe that he came from God, but you do not. Instead you believe that he is God. This is a perverted gospel.

Am I to believe that your God isn't the Father because you teach that your God is 3 persons and in addition, you do not believe the above 2 scriptures?

September 10, 2007 at 4:25 am#65712

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2007,10:39)

I have said this many times and I will say it again.

There are many gods and many lords, but for us there is one God the Father. Not one God the Father, Son, Spirit as you teach.

So lets look at this with the word “Lord”.

There is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. Now Jesus is my only Lord and it was God that made him both Lord and Christ.

When I was younger I use to flat and I had a landlord. Even then Jesus was my only Lord, that never ruled out that there were other lords or people who had authority in my life. It's just that Jesus is the Lord over God's creation. No one else is the Lord over God's creation, but there are lords that have lesser authority. My landlord was the lord over his property and guess what, he was truly my landlord. He wasn't a false lord. But the Lord Jesus is the Lord over all the earth, he is the only one that God made Lord over all.

Now it is not hard to understand in that context how the word “God” can be used. After all, men have also been called “theos” and “elohim”. This is not some fancy invention I came up with, it is the reality in scripture. I am just making an effort to be real and accept that which is written. Don't blame me if you disagree, blame scripture or those who wrote it.

I have said this many times, but I guess I will need to repeat it again in 1 year or so, when you have come full circle again.

Not a very straight answer, but it will do.

Based on your statement above I assume then Jesus is in the same catagory as your statement…

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There are many gods and many lords,

So Jesus is “a god”?

Thanks I am glad you have cleared that up.

September 10, 2007 at 4:39 am#65714

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2007,10:45)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2007,17:21)

So is Jesus “a god”?

Thats a closed ended question!

Yes or No!

If men can be theos and the Father is theos, then of course Jesus can be theos.

Theos is applied to God, Jesus, Men, and angels.

I have answered your question many times.

You say that Jesus is Almighty God and scripture says that Jesus has a God. So if Jesus is Almighty God, then is his God the Almighty Almighty God?

You see there are contradictions in your doctrine.

You say…

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If men can be theos and the Father is theos, then of course Jesus can be theos.

Why dont you just say…

If men can be “gods” and the Father is “God”, then of course Jesus can be a “god”.

Why play with words?

Just come out and say it.

Jesus is a god!

t8 I am gonna revisit the whole “Elohim, Theos” thing you got going on. I will post in Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism thread.

I think there is more than meets the eye concerning the validity of the statement you make…

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After all, men have also been called “theos” and “elohim”.

The question is who is it that called them gods and what kind of men or “gods” were they?

September 10, 2007 at 9:33 am#65717

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2007,16:39)

Why play with words?

Just come out and say it.

Jesus is a god!

And then you call me a JW.
I explain it this way so that you cannot take my words out of context.

I say that God, Jesus, men, angels are all called 'theos' and 'elohim'. Then that way you cannot call me a JW because I am just pointing out scripture.

Sometimes it is not worth answering a loaded question. For example, if I say to you, “have you stopped beating people up”, then if you say no, then you must still be doing it, and if you say yes, then it means that you were doing it. Yet the context may be that you have never done it. That is how loaded questions work, they are designed to condemn someone through craftiness.

So you ask, is Jesus a god? Well of course it is grammatically and scripturally correct to say that he is a god, just as men can be and angels. Even the Father is a god, what kind of god, well he is the almighty God. And Satan is a god, he is the god of this age.

So if I say to you that the Father, the son, men (sons of the most high) and angels are elohim and theos, then you cannot accuse me wrongly and you can see exactly where I stand too.

But the reason you ask such questions is to tempt me and accuse me. You do not ask because you desire to know.

Proverbs 22:3
A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge,
but the simple keep going and suffer for it.

September 10, 2007 at 2:28 pm#65727

Laurel

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2007,09:38)

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The trinity is partly false and partly true.
The Oneness doctrine is partly false and partly true.

I agree with these statements. I have been reading a book called, “THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH” by John C. Dwyer. Surprisingly, I have found much truth regarding the Trinity by reading his book (he is a Catholic retired Prof. – also surprising). He presents the Trinity – not as three persons in one – but as a concept that he believes the original creed makers meant the Trinity to be all along. His concept supports the idea that God is one, and alone God, and that Jesus is his own seperate person as the Son of God. Anyway, in the way he presents his theories, I do see a Trinity. I encourage you to pick his book up (they are cheap on http://www.half.com). I have often wondered if this retired Prof. was asked to retire after he published this book as it does not line up with Catholic doctrine, obviously. I tried to track him down on the website of the Catholic College where he instructed, and not a big surprise here……he was the ONLY retired Prof. that did not have a personal email for further contact. He is still living. Interesting.

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Y'shua after the Spirit came fully upon Him, became Elohim in the flesh

The only thing I would like to add here is that we must be careful when we used words like “became” to describe Jesus' changing in any sense. I only bring this up because the quote above could be taken that Jesus “became” a sort of incarnation of Elohim, himself; instead of meaning that Jesus had Elohim dwelling within him as we do. I'm assuming that is what you meant? Maybe I am incorrect?

Jesus had the fullness of God, and we now have the fullness of Christ.

When the Set-apart Spirit was full in Y'shua, I understand that to mean the whole. Scripture tells of His ability to heal and cause other miracles.

Scripture also points out that He knew His fate beforehand like prophets sometimes do.

Elohim allowed the “whole” of His Spirit into the “man” Y'shua. Y'shua was not born with it.
Now Y'shua has the righteousness in Him (His body) to say “I and My Father are One.” Because of the power of the Set-apart Spirit, He is fully aware of everything about YHWH and His purpose for us.

When you and I can lay are hands on the sick and cause healing, or turn water into wine, and know all things from the beginning to the end, then we can say the “fullness” of the Spirit is in us. Today if the Spirit is in us, it is in limited portion. Not more than we are able to be responsibile for.

Laurel

September 10, 2007 at 4:21 pm#65739

Not3in1

Participant

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When the Set-apart Spirit was full in Y'shua, I understand that to mean the whole. Scripture tells of His ability to heal and cause other miracles.

Hi Laurel,
Remember also that Peter and Paul healed and raised the dead. We, too, *through* the power of God's holy spirit can do greater things than even Jesus did!

My concern was that possibly you believed that Jesus “became” God by the indwelling and giving of God's holy spirit in fullness. Some believe this doctrine – that at the Jordon Jesus was an empty vessel that God filled and used from that day forth (in other words, a sort-of “incarnation” took place at the indwelling of the Spirit). I know Nick believes a doctrine close to this, and I have talked with other's who believe the incarnation at the baptism. I just wanted to clear up that even though Jesus was “filled” with the Spirit – he was still a man – he was still his own person. Just as we are filled and remain our own person.

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Now Y'shua has the righteousness in Him (His body) to say “I and My Father are One.”

According to scripture, we are also one with the Father as Jesus is one with him.

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He is fully aware of everything about YHWH and His purpose for us.

Except that he is still not privy to the date and time of his return.

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I love your last sentence. Yes, there comes a responsibility with knowing our Father and his Son. I have felt the weight of this responsibility many times in the last few years. It's not a burden, but rather when I feel this weight I consider it a privilege. In other words, I have the truth – I am responsible for living it and sharing it according to the faith given me. So, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'm not sure I agree with the rest of your above quote. The reason is that scripture tells us that we will do greater things than Jesus did simply because he goes to the Father and we are have faith as believers. Also, Jesus was given fullness from the Father, and we are given fullness from the Son. Scripture doesn't say that we weren't given the entire fullness, it just says fullness.

John 14:12-14
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.

He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Also see: Col. 2:10

I have experienced some mighty miracles in my lifetime. I have seen God's hand move in an unexplainable way. I believe that we are able to call on God through the Son, and he answers us; I believe that the sick recover and even the dead could rise if our faith allowed it! It is for lack of faith that we are not able to turn water to wine; even Jesus told us we could move mountains if we had the faith of a mustard seed. So, it is not lack of fullness of the spirit, but rather lack of faith on our part. God is faithful and gives us his Spirit as a deposit guarenteeing our adoption; he give his Spirit as a gift; he gives us his Spirit to unite us as the body of Christ.

We can't even begin to realize our potential because of Jesus Christ. Why, even our faith is a gift from God. I pray for faith and understanding above all. Just my thoughts and ideas. Thanks for your post.

September 10, 2007 at 11:26 pm#65751

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2007,21:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2007,16:39)

Why play with words?

Just come out and say it.

Jesus is a god!

And then you call me a JW.
I explain it this way so that you cannot take my words out of context.

I say that God, Jesus, men, angels are all called 'theos' and 'elohim'. Then that way you cannot call me a JW because I am just pointing out scripture.

So if I say to you that the Father, the son, men (sons of the most high) and angels are elohim and theos, then you cannot accuse me wrongly and you can see exactly where I stand too.

But the reason you ask such questions is to tempt me and accuse me. You do not ask because you desire to know.

Proverbs 22:3
A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge,
but the simple keep going and suffer for it.

You say…

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And then you call me a JW.
I explain it this way so that you cannot take my words out of context.

Call a spade a spade t8. There is no taking it out of context. These are your writings are they not? Emphasis mine….

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But of course such knowledge is often trampled by those who wish to distort the truth. They usually think that the word 'theos' and 'elohim' always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many *god (theos)* and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

And then…

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So we humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, we are gods but we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-05.htm

In the above statements you say very plainly that Yeshua is one of the many gods.

Yet you say “, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father”.

So you have “God” as Father and Yeshau as “god”. So Thomas should have said my Lord and my “god”.

So its “One true God” plus “One true god”! Correct? Why be evasive?

You may not want to identify with the JWS but they are the modern day Arians that deny the deity of Christ and call him “a god”. While your version of John 1:1 does not include “Michael the archangel”, you are still saying Jesus is “a god”. You put Yeshua in the same class as every other created being by opposing the hundreds of translators by interpreting John 1:1c as “the Word was god”. You say divine, but the word divine is no where found in the definition of “theos”, neither is it ever translated that way by any credible translation.

In fact the word “theos” is not found in the mouth of any of the Apostles or followers of Yeshua referring to any being other than the Father and Yeshua and the obvious opposites or what Paul calls “so called gods”, which are not gods at all. Look closely…

1 Cor 8:
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God

Paul clealy says there is “NO GOD BUT ONE”. While men may claim there is other “so called gods”, but to us there is but “One God”.

Not “One God” the Father plus “One god”, Yeshua, and then many gods and angels.

You cant have it both ways t8, either Jesus is “God” or he is not God at all or you contradict the scriptures…

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Did Jesus contradict the above scripture (one of many in the OT) in Jn 10 quoting the Psalmist? Jesus never said you are gods. You twist the scrpture. You say…

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“Elohim” is also used to describe Man. See next the verse.

Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'
When Jesus said “you are gods (theos)”, as quoted previously on this page, he was actually quoting this Psalm.
Even angels are called gods in Psalm 97:7. This verse is actually quoted in the Hebrews 1:6 and it is referring to the Angels.

Jesus never said “You are gods”, did he? He said “it is written in you law I said ye are gods”

Jesus is simply rebuking them of their hypocrosy for accusing him of being equal to God by saying he is the Son of God, when their own law said they were sons of God! He is not promoting Polytheism!

BTW, you say Ps 97:7 is quoted in Hebrews 1:6 saying it is referring to “Elohim” as Angels.

Pss 97:7
Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Thanks for admitting t8 that Hebrew 1:6 is a quote of Pss 97:7 for you admit then that Yeshua in Hebrew 1:6 is the LORD/YHWH in Pss 97:7. The context of Pss 97:7 is clearly YHWH that is being worshipped.

I wish you were right, but the problem is Pss 97:7 says “worship him all ye gods (Elohim)” and Heb 1:6 says..”let all the angels of God (elohim, theos) worship him. There is a difference in “All ye 'Elohim, and 'angels of (Elohim,theos).

In fact the translator used the word “aggelos” in describing the natu
re of angels which means…

1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

So you are being deceptive in saying that the translator brought over the word “Elohim” as referring to the angels.

Show us t8 where the word “Theos” at anytime in the NT scriptures is used for an angel of God. In every case it is 'aggelos'. So much for the theos can be angels theory.

You say…

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I say that God, Jesus, men, angels are all called 'theos' and 'elohim'. Then that way you cannot call me a JW because I am just pointing out scripture.

You are pointing out scripture with your Henotheistic interpretation which contradicts the translators and the Hebrew scriptures. Its amazing how you accuse Trinitarians for not accepting scriptures and submitting to them and letting them correct them, yet you yourself has to change the very text or cast shadow on them to fit your theology.

You say…

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First of all if you asked me the question “have you stopped beating people up”, I would say “I don’t beat up people”. Why would I say I ‘No” I stopped beating up people if I don’t beat up people?

Secondly how is it a loaded question to ask, “Is Jesus a god”? Unless you are being ellusive and have something to hide.

No trickery, just a simple question.

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So you ask, is Jesus a god? Well of course it is grammatically and scripturally correct to say that he is a god, just as men can be and angels.

Good at least you admit like the JWS that he is “a god”.

Tell us how it is grammatically and scripturally correct to say Jesus is “a god”.

You say…

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Even the Father is a god, what kind of god, well he is the almighty God. And Satan is a god, he is the god of this age.

So what kind of god is Yeshua? Do you want to put him in the same class as false gods or what Paul and the Hebrew scriptures says is “no gods at all”?

You say…

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So if I say to you that the Father, the son, men (sons of the most high) and angels are elohim and theos, then you cannot accuse me wrongly and you can see exactly where I stand too.

I don’t accuse you t8. Your own words accuse you. In fact you have set up this sight in defiance of the trinity accusing the majority of the body of Christ for being deceived and steeped in Babylon, making yourself “Elite” and also casting shadow and doubt on the scriptures and the translators who translated the major credible translations that we have on Biblegateway and blueletter.com.. Yet, you have no credentials to do such. Now you get heat and say you are being accused because you are asked legitimate questions about your teachings on this sight.

Then you say…

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But the reason you ask such questions is to tempt me and accuse me. You do not ask because you desire to know.

Proverbs 22:3
A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge,
but the simple keep going and suffer for it.

Tempt you? Because someone ask you questions and disagrees with you then suddenly you are a martyr.

September 11, 2007 at 2:24 am#65761

IM4Truth

Participant

WJ I do not understand why you are going on and on about Jesus being God! In
Ephesians 4:4-6 it states that there is one Body, one Spirit(Holy) one Lord(Jesus) one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND THROUGH US ALL, AND IN US ALL.
Peace and Love Mrs.

September 11, 2007 at 5:05 am#65766

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 11 2007,14:24)

IM4truth

Your name should tell you why I continue to go on with Jesus is God.

I am also for truth and there are many souls being led astray by the false teachings of the “Arians”, “Unitarians”, and the “Henotheist”, who are robbing Yeshua of his Image and who are making him out to being just another prophet or anointed man rather than what he is “the image of the invisible God”, the exact representation of his person (substance,essence). Col 1:15, Heb 1:3.

Would the “image of God be less than God”? If you imagine his image to be less than he is, then it is no more his image is it?

All things were created by Jesus and by him all things consist.

God alone made all things.

You quote…

Eph 4:4-6 says “One God and Father of all”.

Notice the “And”. Well lets see how that compares to this…

I Tim 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour and Lord —> Jesus Christ which is our hope;

See how the emphasis and punctuation can change the meaning of a scripture?

Now it also says…

WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND THROUGH US ALL, AND IN US ALL.

Compare to this…

Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (not above the Father, not beneath the Father)
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

So what do we have…

The Father is God and is above all and dwells in all!

The Son is God and is above all and dwells in all!

Now many will have to say how is this so. Yeshua only a “Man” dwells and fills all in all???

Yeshua only a “Man” has “All POWER” and “ALL AUTHOURITY” in Heaven and earth.

Yeshua only a “Man” upholds all things by the Word of “his” power. Heb 1:3

Yeshua only a “Man” was/is before all things and by him all things “consist”. Col 1:17

By and through Yeshua, only a “Man” all things were made that was made and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3

Clearly there are many Jesus's being preached.

The Trinitarian Jesus is greater than them all, for their Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

September 11, 2007 at 5:39 am#65769

Laurel

Participant

First of all I will be greatly suprised to learn that “we” can do greater things than Y'shua Messiah, I would like you to post Scripture to back that claim up. I do not believe that for a second.

And, NO I do not believe Y'shua IS YHWH. I believe Y'shua was given the whole of YHWH's Spirit, so that He could be here in Elohim's place. The two are one in His Spirit.

September 11, 2007 at 6:50 am#65772

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 11 2007,17:39)

First of all I will be greatly suprised to learn that “we” can do greater things than Y'shua Messiah, I would like you to post Scripture to back that claim up. I do not believe that for a second.

And, NO I do not believe Y'shua IS YHWH. I believe Y'shua was given the whole of YHWH's Spirit, so that He could be here in Elohim's place. The two are one in His Spirit.

John 14:12-14

September 11, 2007 at 3:23 pm#65787

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 11 2007,14:24)

Im4truth…..> all trinitarians are here for only one purpose and that is to destory those who God has reveald the truth to. They follow the teachings of the lying Anthanas their forefather who taught the lies and false relegious practices long ago, Just look at their History, all the torching and Blood Shed all in the name of their perverted religion. Claiming to be of God, but followers of Satan and the twist of the simple truth to their own destruction.
Well did Jude prophesy of these saying they have went the way of Cain and have run greedily in the error of Balam and will perish in the error of Kora.
I say to all do not give in to these decieved liers they are only here to destory the truth. Hold on to the truth God has given us, because greater is He thats in US than who is in them. Remember Jesus words FOR (THOU) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> it's just that simple. And remember Jesus also Said (HIS) GOD AND (OUR) GOD (HIS) FATHER AND (OUR) FATHER. That brings us along side Him in relationship to The Father. Do Not by the LIE they progenate that Jesus is the Almighty God Himself. This simple is a LIE…….Peace to all that do not hold to these false teaching of the trinitarians…….gene

September 11, 2007 at 4:24 pm#65795