The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 30 2007,13:19)

Gene. You are twisting scripture again. Don't you know that it is a sin to pervert the scriptures?

Thomas was speaking to Jesus, and not to the Father. Read and understand the grammar!

Joh 20:26 And after eight days the disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace to you!
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here and behold My hands; and reach your hand here and thrust it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

August 30, 2007 at 12:07 pm#65076

Participant

TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

Amen and Amen!

August 30, 2007 at 12:13 pm#65077

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 29 2007,07:59)

CB;

What you are concluding CB is that Jehovah God came himself, he did not sent his Son. In making such a conclusion you are contradicting what Christ taught. Jesus said his Father (Jehovah) sent him into the world. The Father did not come himself. Can you see that your doctrine changes the entire message of Jesus. The Father sent his Son and the Father remained in heaven according to Jesus. However, the Father was with Christ spiritually that is true. You could say that the Father came to us through his Son. Paul said that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. If you look in the Gospels you will find that Christ is most often referred to as the Son of God. That is why I believe that the title Son of God is so important to the message of the Gospel. The term God in the New Testament is almost always used in relation to the Father, not the Son. The primary message is that God sent his Son who existed with the Father before the foundation of the world.

Take Care

Mr. Steve

Jehovah God came Himself.

The Son is Jehovah
The Father is Jehovah
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah

Your arian doctrine cannot fathom this.

Jesus is Jehovah.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

August 30, 2007 at 12:15 pm#65078

Participant

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

August 31, 2007 at 4:51 am#65126

underdog

Participant

T8-
I appreciate your writings on the Trinity and I have a question for you.

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ? Do you think he was a flesh and blood man, or was he God on earth? (or both, like the Trinitarians say)

Furthermore: Is it possible to believe the Divinity of Christ, and yet NOT believe in the Trinity?

August 31, 2007 at 5:09 am#65130

Not3in1

Participant

Underdog – WELCOME!

Glad to have you here.

If you click on “HeavenNet” in the upper right hand corner, you will be able to search some teachings that t8 has written. I believe you can find the answers to what you are seeking there.

As for me, I believe that you can believe that Jesus is divine and not believe in the Trinity – I do! I believe that Jesus is God's Son, but not God himself. Any true, literal Son that comes from God must have some divine nature, don't you think? Because of Jesus, we can also partake in this divine nature. Besides, if he was only human, then Mary and Jo could have conceived Jesus. Jesus is a man – yes – but a divine man.

Man + Man = Man
God + Man = Divine Man

Just my thoughts on the subject…..

Take care and again, glad you're here.
Mandy

August 31, 2007 at 5:22 am#65132

Participant

Thanks for coming underdog
Yes I think you can find t8's answer written many times, as Not3in1 has said;
JUST IN CASE he misses your post; can happen
Often he is called to repeat it for all the new comers to the forum
And I’m sure if he has changed his position of thinking from that which you will find him to say; then I’m sure he will let us all know OF his revelation

Anyway all the best peace and grace to you

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

August 31, 2007 at 6:21 am#65137

https://heavennet.net/writings/created-or-uncreated.htm

Participant

This response is to address t8s position on Jesus being created or uncreated found here…

You say…

Quote

History shows that Greek thinking has had a strong influence on Christianity. Greek thinking demanded that all things fit into 2 categories, i.e., created or uncreated. So according to this type of thinking, Christ was either created or uncreated. This helped immensely in shaping the Trinity Doctrine.

Created or uncreated! Is there anything else? How do you see anything else in these passages of scriptures?

Jn 1:3 KJV
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jn 1:3 NIV
Through him all things were made; “without him” nothing was made that has been made.

Rom 11:36
For *from him* and *through him* and *to him* are *all things*. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Now if “Nothing” was made, or “Not Anything” was made without him, Yeshua, then where and how does Yeshua have his beginning? Scriptures please!

Since all things means “Time, Space and Matter” included, then enlighten us with scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning?

Or maybe you think somewhere way back before time God conceived and was pregnant and “brought birth” to the Word. Which still would fit in the made category.

But if the Word was born then did it go like this…

God spoke the Word and the Word was born? Or maybe like this…

God thought a word and the Word was born? So when God said let there be light and there was light…

That means he thought a word and Spoke it and the Word was born then through his “born Word” he said let there be light and there was light?

“Oh the tangeled webs we weave, when first we practice to decieve”.

The greeks believed in many “gods” and that more than one God created all things.

John understood that only One God created all things when he said…

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

t8 says…

Quote

But scripture teaches that between the uncreated God and creation, then was an intermediary step. This mediator is Christ who is the Word become flesh. He is the ONLY begotten and the only one who has seen God and can declare him.

Sounds good! However you provide no scripture that says the pre-existent Yeshua is a mediator “Before” he came in the flesh.

Also while you are at it can you show us where he is the “Only Begotten Son of God” in scripture before his natural birth?

Where is the scripture that says he is the “Son of God” before his natural birth.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be **born of thee** shall be called the Son of God.

Jn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of **the only begotten of the Father**,) full of grace and truth.

t8 says…

Quote

There is a big jump between God and created beings. In fact we cannot even see God, so forget about trying to shake his hand.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So explain t8 how Jesus who was also a man, could have seen God when John says “No man hath see God at anytime?
You have a contradiction if Jesus is merely a man and not God. Don’t forget in the same chapter John said the Word was God! You see t8 when Jesus looks at the Father he sees himself and when the Father looks at Jesus he sees himself!

t8 says…

Quote

But for us there is the image of God. i.e., Christ, who reveals the invisible God to us. That is why Jesus said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. Jesus wasn't a created angel and nor was he a non-created God. Scripture is clear. He is and was the Word of God. The firstborn son. The only begotten.

Scriptures please? Where is Jesus said to be “The spoken Word of God”.

John didn’t say…

In the beginning was the Word of God, and the Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God!

Jesus is given the name “Word of God” in revelation because from him proceeds the “Word of God”.

Rev 19:13
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The sword going out of his mouth is the word of God!

Further more this same word is the word which brought everything into being. The spoken word of Yeshua.

You are implying that Yeshua is the spoken word, therefore you are saying that God speaks his spoken word through the spoken word.

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Also you imply deceitfully that he is the firstborn Son and begotten before he was born in the flesh, meaning you are saying Yeshua was “Born” somewhere way back before all thi
ngs. Scriptures please.

t8 says…

Quote

Now if we are to correctly understand the truth about rank and where Christ is in relation to God and us. Look at this next scripture:

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

So us created beings have a head who is Christ. BUT Christ also has a head who is GOD.

Can you grasp what this means? It changes the very foundation of most denominations and this is why such teaching is largely ignored today. Men want to cling to that which they create with their own hands. Yes Christ is our origin, for he is our head and we came into being by God through Christ.

* God > Christ/Word > Man > Woman.
* God > Christ/Word > creation

It isn't the following as many people advocate:

* God> Angel > Man
* God-Father > God-Jesus> Man/creation.

No its more like…

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.

1 Cor 11:13 simply speaks of the order of things and not the nature of things!

There is no other being that created all things t8 but God, “By himself” “Alone”, “None other”!

God and creation! Show me scriptures that says other wise!

t8 says…

Quote

Greek thinking sets the stage for the existence of those last 2 incorrect points. That is why I am convinced that Greek thinking has contaminated much of Christianity. Sadly many of these infected people fight to stay infected and try to infect others. But Paul knew about the Greeks and their philosophy, yet he preached “Christ crucified” to them, which was an offense to their proud intellectualism.

So Paul didn't take the stance of trying to compete with their intellectual understanding of things because he knew the foolishness of God was greater than the wisdom of men. Yet some teachers try to intellectualize false doctrine. But false doctrine is false doctrine, no matter how big the words you use.

Jesus is not created nor is he the uncreated God. Instead, he is the only begotten of God, the Word OF God.

Again John must have known about the greeks belief in many gods like you believe that we are gods, Yet John says the Word which is God created all things and even Paul says the same knowing there is only “One God” and that God created all things!

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Again you say, ”he is the only begotten of God, the Word of God”!

Begotten after his natural birth? Yes!

Word of God? Not as you impl… “God spoke and Yeshua came into existence”!

t8 says…

Quote

A wise man will stick to revelation from God which includes scripture. A foolish man will imagine all kinds of vain imaginations with his own mind from his own spirit and try to create God in an image that fits his limited understanding.

Good advise t8. You should not imagine the “Image of the invisible God” to be less than God!!!

Note: The Greeks were especially known for Polytheism, the worship and belief in more than one God.

“The ancient Greeks were polytheistic, they believed in many different gods and goddesses. The Greeks believed that these gods and goddesses controlled everything, from the waves in the ocean to the winner of a race. Each god or goddess controlled one or two major aspects of life.”
http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academi….g1.html

As you study t8s writings you will see that he is a Henotheist, and while he accuses Christianity of being influenced by the Greeks, he himself lines up with the greeks by teaching that there is more than “One God”, and that there are many gods.

Henotheism (Greek εἷς θεός heis theos “one god”) is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean devotion to a single “God” while accepting the existence of other gods. Müller stated that henotheism means “monotheism in principle and polytheism in fact.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

Jehovah's Witnesses are Henotheists. Although accused of being polytheists, the correct term would be Henotheist. Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the trinity and believe in an entire “henotheist” system of gods, including the “Almighty God”, (the Father), “mighty God” (Son) to lesser gods including the devil, angels, and finally even men are gods.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-polytheism-pharaoh-akhenaton.htm

t8. Please tell us what you think Yeshua was before he came in the flesh? How did he come into being?

You have not answered these questions in your writings, or maybe I am overlooking them.

August 31, 2007 at 10:35 am#65143

Participant

gee… is there anymore mud left on the ground where you live WJ?

WJ HOW WILL HELP…if you manage to sow t8's pants to his collar recreating him to your OWN Image and likeness?

August 31, 2007 at 5:59 pm#65151

kejonn

Participant

Quote (underdog @ Aug. 30 2007,23:51)

T8-
I appreciate your writings on the Trinity and I have a question for you.

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ? Do you think he was a flesh and blood man, or was he God on earth? (or both, like the Trinitarians say)

Furthermore: Is it possible to believe the Divinity of Christ, and yet NOT believe in the Trinity?

Underdog,

What most people do not understand is “divinity”, which derives from “divine” does not always equate to God Almighty. Those who believe in the Trinity cannot see any distinction, but the word “divine” covers much much more ground than to point out God alone. From http://www.answers.com/topic/divine:

1.
a. Having the nature of or being a deity.
b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation.
c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.
2. Superhuman; godlike.
3.
a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto.
b. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball.
4. Heavenly; perfect.
n.
A cleric.
A theologian.

So to say that a being is “divine” does not automatically say that entity is God.

August 31, 2007 at 6:11 pm#65153

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,07:13)

Jehovah God came Himself.

The Son is Jehovah
The Father is Jehovah
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah

Your arian doctrine cannot fathom this.

Jesus is Jehovah.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

CB,

You struggle deeply with verses that say “name by which he will be called”. I have listed on several occasions a list of names that had “LORD” or “God” in them, and you have never addressed them. Might I assume that you cannot? For instance, Jehu (look him up) means “Jehovah is he”. By your same logic then, Jehu is also part of the Godhead right?

Just how many persons make up the Godhead? It has gone well beyond three if we start taking names as proof.

Quote

Show me true Trinity in scripture. Since you cannot, what you have is your own form of scriptural perversion.

August 31, 2007 at 11:38 pm#65165

Participant

Quote (charity @ Aug. 31 2007,22:35)

gee… is there anymore mud left on the ground where you live WJ?

WJ HOW WILL HELP…if you manage to sow t8's pants to his collar recreating him to your OWN Image and likeness?

charity

This is a forum where mens beliefs are challenged and measured against the scriptures.

I would prefer that you show me where I am wrong in my response.

Instead you give me a negative descriptive image of your percieved view of me and how you feel about me.

I am not really sure why you call yourself charity.

Remember Jesus spit n the ground and made mud and put it in a blind mans eye and healed him!!!

August 31, 2007 at 11:58 pm#65170

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 01 2007,11:38)

Quote (charity @ Aug. 31 2007,22:35)

gee… is there anymore mud left on the ground where you live WJ?

WJ HOW WILL HELP…if you manage to sow t8's pants to his collar recreating him to your OWN Image and likeness?

charity

This is a forum where mens beliefs are challenged and measured against the scriptures.

I would prefer that you show me where I am wrong in my response.

Instead you give me a negative descriptive image of your percieved view of me and how you feel about me.

I am not really sure why you call yourself charity.

Remember Jesus spit n the ground and made mud and put it in a blind mans eye and healed him!!!

WJ…truly if you wish me to tell what is wrong I will

It’s your heart…you need to find it….and attitude of pride …it is blinding you…and with all the scriptures that the men have given you…you read them without loving the truth; messing with context because of your heart …can’t hear. And this is because of not been truthful in the littlest things first ..to find yourself honest and of good judgement…go away …
Cry out to the lord wj…the men here that have done this…shine. And when I read after what they have said…it is what they perceived to be…and if I feel different I post why I do…

this is the best charity I can offer you the truth of the nature that you manefest; and the wearing out of the saints you contibute heavely too; by not desiring to even hear them

September 1, 2007 at 5:06 am#65179

Participant

Quote (charity @ Sep. 01 2007,11:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 01 2007,11:38)

Quote (charity @ Aug. 31 2007,22:35)

gee… is there anymore mud left on the ground where you live WJ?

WJ HOW WILL HELP…if you manage to sow t8's pants to his collar recreating him to your OWN Image and likeness?

charity

This is a forum where mens beliefs are challenged and measured against the scriptures.

I would prefer that you show me where I am wrong in my response.

Instead you give me a negative descriptive image of your percieved view of me and how you feel about me.

I am not really sure why you call yourself charity.

Remember Jesus spit n the ground and made mud and put it in a blind mans eye and healed him!!!

WJ…truly if you wish me to tell what is wrong I will

this is the best charity I can offer you the truth of the nature that you manefest; and the wearing out of the saints you contibute heavely too; by not desiring to even hear them

charity

You say…

Quote

…and with all the scriptures that the men have given you…you read them without loving the truth; messing with context because of your heart …can’t hear

Interesting coming from one who disdains the beloved disciple John and his writings.

But, as I thought no scripural response to my post, just the usual attacking of the person and the heart.

How sad!

September 1, 2007 at 8:55 am#65180

Participant

Come on WJ you can do it…..Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Have a nice day; grace and mercy is enough for us all
I'm thinking of you

charity

September 1, 2007 at 8:10 pm#65194

Participant

Underdog,

The definition of the word “Divinity” can be found in scripture and dosnt need a dictionary.

The word “Divine” is found in the AV in english three times…

Heb 9:1
Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

I highlighted “divine service” for the translators translated the greek word only once as “divine service”.

The greek word is “latreia” which means…

1) service rendered for hire

a) any service or ministration: the service of God

2) the service and worship of God according to the requirements of the Levitical law

3) to perform sacred services

It is found 4 times translated “service” and 1 time translated “divine service”.

Everytime it is used it is speaking of the “sacred service of God or to God”. So the word “latreia” belongs exclusively for that which is Gods and not mans.

2. and 3.

2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The word “divine” in these 2 scriptures is “theios” which means…

1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks

2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity

a) of Christ

b) Holy Spirit

c) the Father

It is found translated 2 times above as “divine” and one time as “Godhead”.

Its root word is “theos” which is exclusively used by the Apostles as “God” for the Father and Yeshua in a positive sense.

The word “theios” is also translated “Godhead” in..

Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead, (theios)
is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Here the Apostles coin the word “Godhead” or as some tranlations put it, “Divine Being” to God as apposed to idols or false gods.

2 Peter 1:3 speaks of his “divine power”, the power of God an exclusive attribute of God.

2 Peter 1:4 speaks of us sharing in his “divine nature”.

Man was created in the nature and likeness of God in the garden.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

They shared the nature of God and his likeness. Then satan lied to them and said they could be gods.

So Adam sinned and lost his likeness to God.

Men are now the children of wrath.

The greek word for “nature” in 2 Peter 1:4 is “physis” which basically means…

a) the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature

Its the same greek word used here…

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature (“physis”) the children of wrath, even as others.

Now compare this with…

So we see that we have been restored back to the image of God through spiritual birth that Adam lost in the garden. We having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust by this new birth, this new man that we have become.

By nature we were the children of wrath and now have been translated into his glorious kingdom sharing once again his “divine nature and likeness”.

Sharing his image does not mean we are “the image” no more than sharing his divine nature means we are “divine”.

The word divine is exclusive to the Father and the Son.

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

We share his divine nature. Jesus is “Divine!”

We share the image of God. Jesus is “the image of God!”

Men should not imagine the “Image of God” to be less than God!

Blessings

September 1, 2007 at 8:22 pm#65195

kejonn

Participant

Yes, the word “divine” is indeed in the Bible. But none of these verses above “define” the word. What about these?

Gen 41:38 Then Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this, in whom is a divine spirit?” [speaking of Joseph]
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” [speaking of Samuel]

So are these two men (Joseph and Samuel) God as well?

September 1, 2007 at 8:56 pm#65196