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To Oxy .
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 11 2007,09:59) There are 827 pages on this topic, which is pretty incredible. I have noticed that often it is the people who deny the personage of the Holy Spirit also lack the gifts, which is a real shame. If any are interested I have tried to explain the trinity here> http://www.all4god.net/trinity.htm
Blessings
Instead of trying to explain God using a 3rd century framework designed by man, wouldn't it be better to use scripture?t8…..> when Peter was shownig Jesus Existence, He said Jesus was foreordained (NOT PREEXISTED) and was Manifested in our time. Lets give Peter credit of knowing about Jesus. If Jesus had prexisted he would have said so.
Because it say's Jesus is (before) all things dosen't mean he preexisted, it means he has preeminence in all things pretaning to God and his athority.t8…..ask yourself how could it show mortal man that he could espire to a right relationship with Him, if He took a super Being and incarnnated him. It would not encourage us who are weak mortals. Satan wants people to believe Jesus had all kinds of advantages and was really not one of us, but of a higher order. Why?, because it will discourage us and we would just give up. ….Just what i think ….gene
Yes he was foreordained to have first place in all things.
But that is not why I think he pre-existed.
I think so because of a number of other scriptures.
I'll give you a good one now, but this topic should be discussed in the pre-existence thread.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”I will post this in the pre-existence thread so you can reply there.
Thanx
Jesus did not say Before Abraham was, I have been.
Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I am”
The Jews knew that Jesus was referring to Himself as ”I AM ”, the Almighty God, that is why they took up stones to cast at Him. They thought that He was a man claiming to be God.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.Undoubtedly, Jesus knew the difference in the Greek between “I am” and “I have been.” Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.”
Thus clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be the Great I AM God and were enraged and wanted Him dead.
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The Jews obviously understand that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus did not dispute their accusation. He could have but He didn't, simply because Jesus was God. He could have set the record straight by saying to the Jews, I am not claiming to be God, you misunderstood me. But Jesus did not correct them because He was claiming to be God. Jesus was and still is God.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jesus is the Almighty God. The Great I AM
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
. JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
Cult buster……> You need to heed what 2Peter3:16 say's, yourself, rather than applying it to others. It's a joke for someone who believes in the trinity brain wash job to quote this verse to apply to others.
But you do have this, the HOLY SPIRIT = God's Spirit It truly is one with the Father.Cult buster…..You say Jesus didn't denie he was the Great I Am, when they accused him of making himself God, So why did he not SAY Yes I AM, The ALMIGHTY GOD then. And why is there no place in the scriptures where Jesus said I am Almighty God, doin't you think if that were the case He would Have Just came out and Said it. And who was he praying to and telling us to pray to. And why did he say I am going to MY GOD AND YOUR GOD MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER. You trinitarians all do the same thing, you get caught up in little obsqure scriptures that can go either way and where translators have forced the text and forget the obvious ones that are clear. You remind me of the Jesus' words ” you strain out a gnat and swollow a camel.
Gene,
I used to reply to CB but I won't anymore. He basically comes in once a week or so, drops the same set of verses (sometimes 1/3 of the Bible!), ignores what you say, and calls you either a Mason or JW. Oh, and he uses Arian every once in a while too. I think Yahshua could come back in the clouds tomorrow, announce there is no Trinity, and CB would just call him a Mason
.CB;
In John 8 Jesus goes to great length to explain to them who is Father was and where he was from. In contrast to his listeners whom he said had a different father. The lengthy discourse of Christ here is all about “Whose your daddy?” Why then at the end of his discourse would you conclude when he said “Before Abraham was, I am” he was suggesting he was his own daddy. Not even the Jews according to the flesh believed he was saying that he was God. They said he said he was the Son of God, making himself equal with God. However, they also in the same chapter said that God was their Father, making themselves sons of God. This was hypocrisy to the max. This was how out of gas the Jews were against Jesus. The truth of course was they were jealous to the core and very insecure about their place and nation in light of Christ's great following. Pilate even knew they were crucifying him out of envy. The irony is that modernly the majority of Christian churches want to rid themselves of those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not God, and in the days of Christ, the Jews (also the majority) wanted to crucify Christ for stating he was the Son of God, and not God. It's the same truth, but in both cases its the majority church persecuting others who proclaim this fundamental truth upon which Christ is building his church.
Mr. Steve
Gene Balthrop
Quote Cult buster…..You say Jesus didn't denie he was the Great I Am, when they accused him of making himself God, So why did he not SAY Yes I AM, The ALMIGHTY GOD then. And why is there no place in the scriptures where Jesus said I am Almighty God, doin't you think if that were the case He would Have Just came out and Said it. Gene. You need to heed the words of Jesus.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
If you want to know the truth about Jesus, then search the scriptures.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He lived, died, and is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last. Rev 1:8 also describes Him as the Almighty.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron
Comparing Rev 19:15 and Rev 12:5, we see Jesus described as Almighty God.
Isa 9:6 also describes Jesus as The mighty God
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 16 2007,10:47) CB; If Jesus is the Word and the Word is God, who is the Son of God?
Do you believe that Jesus is God the Father and God the Son?Steven
Mr Steve. The Son is the MIGHTY GOD.Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
………….and the Word was God………. John 1:1
Amen and Amen!
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction
Cult buster …. again you show your lack of understanding of the scriptures John 1:8 is God almighty speaking not Jesus. But if you read the perlog you could have figured that out for yourself. Revelation was Given by God the Father to Jesus to give to His servents. It wasn't Jesus' revelation but the FAthers. But again you proberly can't figure that out. If you can't figure out the simple things why try the more diffecult things. Again what do Jesus mean when he said ” For (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD. when you cant answer this simple statement made by Jesus why try the more diffecult scriptures , Not to mention where Jesus said the words he was speaking wern't His but the words of Him who sent Him. And when he said he came not to do his will but the will of Him who sent him, saying not my will but thy will be done. Why don't you deal with the easy scriptures first before you try the more complex ones. If you can't understand the simple I dought you understand the complex……gene
CB;
When you say that Christ is the Mighty God, do you mean that he is the God that revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the Almighty God?
Steven
Hi everyone,
In Hebrews 2: “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings” (vs. 9-10).
Did you catch what was said? Do you grasp it? The promise of a staggering future available to mankind. Those called in this age are to inherit “all things” and to be “crowned with glory and honor” through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ—“the Captain of their salvation.”
Paul reveals that, when Christ returns, “many sons” will be brought “unto glory,” through the work of the “Captain of our salvation” (Heb. 2:10).
The Bible shows a connection between sons and heirs. An heir has not yet inherited what is to come to him. In I Corinthians 15:50, that we will “inherit the kingdom of God.” But those called now, in this lifetime, are heirs—begotten (not yet born) sons. Paul further explains, “And if you be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise…Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a SON; and if a SONon, then an heir of God through Christ” (Gal. 3:29; 4:7).
God will share rulership over His entire creation with all of His Sons. Christ is merely the FIRST of many. Notice: “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29).
The birth of a “firstborn” son logically implies the future birth of additional sons (and daughters) to the same family!
One of God’s biblical names is “Father” (Greek: Pater: see Matt. 5:48, 6:9; Mark 14:36; Gal. 4:6). This word refers to the head of a family, like the word “son”, a family name! A human father and son are members of the same family. This is also true of Spirit-begotten children of God!
In Hebrews 2, notice that Christ “…is not ashamed to call them brethren [US!]” (vs. 11). Truly, the begotten Christian has been called to “glory” and to be one of “many sons.” Christ’s suffering and sacrifice allow Him to be the “Captain of our salvation”.
“For both He that sanctifies [Christ] and they who are sanctified [begotten Christians] are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren” (vs. 11). There will be no difference between Christ and His younger brothers and sisters, except that He will have greater overall authority within God’s kingdom. All will be of the God kind—God Beings!
If Christ is “not ashamed to call them [us] brethren,” then we, God’s begotten sons, must not be ashamed to defend the very truth that sanctifies us (John 17:17)—and the truth of the gospel (Phil. 1:17). We must “grow up” unto Christ (Eph. 4:13) and hold to the true doctrines of God. We must qualify to stand beside Christ over “all things.”
The Christian goal is to be born into the kingdom of God—to become an immortal spirit being who will rule under Christ. What could be more wonderful—more glorious—to look forward to?
While the trinity is a mystery that cannot be understood, God’s Plan, while a mystery to the world, can be understood. And His purpose has not changed from the beginning.
The Bible uses many analogies to show how the Holy Spirit works within a Christian’s mind. None of them attribute any qualities of “personhood.”
(1) God’s Word likens the Holy Spirit to wind: “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting” (Acts 2:2).
Christ likened those born as Spirit beings into the kingdom of God to wind: “The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell [from where] it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).
(2) The Holy Spirit is also compared to oil. As a spiritual “lubricant,” it is comforting (John 14:26)Oil is also burned as a fuel to create fire, produce light (Matt. 5:14; 25:1-8) and generate heat (Rev. 3:15). Christians are to be the lights of the world and the Holy Spirit is the fuel that powers them. (Again, review Matthew 25:1-12.)
We are also anointed by the Spirit, just like an anointing of oil: “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound” (Isa. 61:1). Also see I John 2:27, describing conversion itself as an anointing.
(3) The Holy Spirit is likened to fire. Notice: “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them” (Acts 2:3-4).
Again, II Timothy 1:6 shows that, like a fire, the Holy Spirit must be constantly stirred up within each Christian:
Paul also exhorted, “Quench not the Spirit” (I Thes. 5:19). Quenching the Spirit is like quenching thirst or fire—when you quench either, you extinguish it. In the case of the Holy Spirit, this is done by “smothering it” with wrong thoughts, or by continual sin. Obviously, a person cannot be “quenched.”
(4) God’s Word also likens the Holy Spirit to water. Nobody can live physically without water, and nobody can live spiritually (or eternally) without the Holy Spirit. Christ stated, in John 7:38-39, “He that believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spoke He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
(5) By-products of the Holy Spirit are compared to fruit. Fruit helps to cleanse the physical body. The Holy Spirit helps to cleanse His children spiritually. Fruit also provides instant energy to the body: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law” (Gal. 5:22-23). Allowing the mind to be guided by the Holy Spirit automatically yields the above “fruit,” which cleanses one of “spiritual toxins,” and provides power to continue.
Just as no one can live physically without food, Christians must feed upon the fruits of the Tree of Life (the Holy Spirit) in order to live spiritually (I Cor. 15:21-22; John 6:30-35; Rev. 2:17).
(6) The Holy Spirit is also a gift: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). The Holy Spirit then brings with it potentially a whole series of gifts (I Cor. 12:1-11).
(7) Also, to show that Christians are to be gentle and peaceable, we saw that the Holy Spirit is likened to a dove. Notice: “And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him” (Matt. 3:16).
Genesis 8:8-12 records that Noah sent out a dove “to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground,” so that he could be led in what to do. In like manner, Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit in their minds.
The Holy Spirit is the life (and very mind) of God. Jesus Christ lived by the Spirit of the Father dwelling within Him. Just as the Father dwelled within Christ through the Holy Spirit and gave Him life, Christ lives within His followers through the Spirit and gives them life—eternal life. Notice Christ’s description of His relationship with the Father:
Becoming one with the Father and Christ is only possible through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Take time to really ponder the following scriptures:
(John 17:11).
“That they all may be one; as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that You have sent Me” (John 17:21).
Now answer the following.Are these verses in any way referring to the trinity? And if they are, how is this reconciled with the fact that Christians are to become one with the Father and Christ, with no mention of the Holy Spirit? As explained, it is silly to think that Christians could become one with each other in the same manner of the Father and Christ—if they are two-thirds of the trinity. Yet, if the above-mentioned verses are taken at face value, that is exactly what one must conclude. It is obvious that Christ is talking about being of the SAME MIND with He and the Father.
Seeking truth…..> good posts its encouraging to read these truths it shows the movement of Gods Spirit among us……..thanks sister…….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 27 2007,19:40) Cult buster …. again you show your lack of understanding of the scriptures John 1:8 is God almighty speaking not Jesus. But if you read the perlog you could have figured that out for yourself. Revelation was Given by God the Father to Jesus to give to His servents. It wasn't Jesus' revelation but the FAthers. But again you proberly can't figure that out. If you can't figure out the simple things why try the more diffecult things. Again what do Jesus mean when he said ” For (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD. when you cant answer this simple statement made by Jesus why try the more diffecult scriptures , Not to mention where Jesus said the words he was speaking wern't His but the words of Him who sent Him. And when he said he came not to do his will but the will of Him who sent him, saying not my will but thy will be done. Why don't you deal with the easy scriptures first before you try the more complex ones. If you can't understand the simple I dought you understand the complex……gene
Gene. You're putting the “twist” on scripture.
Look again! This time study the grammar.Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He lived, died, and is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last. Rev 1:8 also describes Him as the Almighty.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron
Comparing Rev 19:15 and Rev 12:5, we see Jesus described as Almighty God.
Isa 9:6 also describes Jesus as The mighty God
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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